MMO-Champion - Cataclysm Class & Mastery Systems Update
Update - I moved the "To Recap" part at the top of the post for those of you who hate walls of text. I also added a couple of blue posts about these changes

Cataclysm Class & Mastery Systems Update
[blizzquote author=Zarhym source=http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/25626290449/cataclysm-class-amp-mastery-systems-update/]When we first announced our design goals for class talent trees back at BlizzCon 2009, one of our major stated focuses was to remove some of the boring and "mandatory" passive talents. We mentioned that we wanted talent choices to feel more flavorful and fun, yet more meaningful at the same time. Recently, we had our fansites release information on work-in-progress talent tree previews for druids, priests, shaman, and rogues. From those previews and via alpha test feedback, a primary response we heard was that these trees didn’t incorporate the original design goals discussed at BlizzCon. This response echoes something we have been feeling internally for some time, namely that the talent tree system has not aged well since we first increased the level cap beyond level 60. In an upcoming beta build, we will unveil bold overhauls of all 30 talent trees.

To Recap
When players reach level 10, they are presented with basic information on the three specializations within their class and are asked to choose one. Then they spend their talent point. The other trees darken and are unavailable until 31 points are spent in the chosen tree. The character is awarded an active ability, and one or more passive bonuses unique to the tree they've chosen. As they gain levels, they'll alternate between receiving a talent point and gaining new skills. They'll have a 31-point tree to work down, with each talent being more integral and exciting than they have been in the past. Once they spend their 31'st point in the final talent (at level 70), the other trees open up and become available to allocate points into from then on. As characters move into the level 78+ areas in Cataclysm, they'll begin seeing items with a new stat, Mastery. Once they learn the Mastery skill from their class trainer they'll receive bonuses from the stat based on the tree they've specialized in.

We understand that these are significant changes and we still have details to solidify. We feel, however, that these changes better fulfill our original class design goals for Cataclysm, and we're confident that they will make for a better gameplay experience. Your constructive feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

Talent Tree Vision

One of the basic tenets of Blizzard game design is that of “concentrated coolness.” We’d rather have a simpler design with a lot of depth, than a complicated but shallow design. The goal for Cataclysm remains to remove a lot of the passive (or lame) talents, but we don’t think that’s possible with the current tree size. To resolve this, we're reducing each tree to 31-point talents. With this reduction in tree size we need to make sure they're being purchased along a similar leveling curve, and therefore will also be reducing the number of total talent points and the speed at which they're awarded during the leveling process.

As a result, we can keep the unique talents in each tree, particularly those which provide new spells, abilities or mechanics. We’ll still have room for extra flavorful talents and room for player customization, but we can trim a great deal of fat from each tree. The idea isn’t to give players fewer choices, but to make those choices feel more meaningful. Your rotations won’t change and you won’t lose any cool talents. What will change are all of the filler talents you had to pick up to get to the next fun talent, as well as most talents that required 5 of your hard-earned points.

We are also taking a hard look at many of the mandatory PvP talents, such as spell pushback or mechanic duration reductions. While there will always be PvP vs. PvE builds, we’d like for the difference to be less extreme, so that players don’t feel like they necessarily need to spend their second talent specialization on a PvP build.

The Rise of Specialization

We want to focus the talent trees towards your chosen style of gameplay right away. That first point you spend in a tree should be very meaningful. If you choose Enhancement, we want you to feel like an Enhancement shaman right away, not thirty talent points later. When talent trees are unlocked at level 10, you will be asked to choose your specialization (e.g. whether you want to be an Arms, Fury or Protection warrior) before spending that first point. Making this choice comes with certain benefits, including whatever passive bonuses you need to be effective in that role, and a signature ability that used to be buried deeper in the talent trees. These abilities and bonuses are only available by specializing in a specific tree. Each tree awards its own unique active ability and passives when chosen. The passive bonuses range from flat percentage increases, like a 20% increase to Fire damage for Fire mages or spell range increases for casters, to more interesting passives such as the passive rage regeneration of the former Anger Management talent for Arms warriors, Dual-Wield Specialization for Fury warriors and Combat rogues, or the ability to dual-wield itself for Enhancement shaman.

The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees couldn’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance.

Getting Down to the Grit

Talent trees will have around 20 unique talents instead of today's (roughly) 30 talents, and aesthetically will look a bit more like the original World of Warcraft talent trees. The 31-point talents will generally be the same as the 51-point talents we already had planned for Cataclysm. A lot of the boring or extremely specialized talents have been removed, but we don't want to remove anything that’s going to affect spell/ability rotations. We want to keep overall damage, healing, and survivability roughly the same while providing a lot of the passive bonuses for free based on your specialization choice.

While leveling, you will get 1 talent point about every 2 levels (41 points total at level 85). Our goal is to alternate between gaining a new class spell or ability and gaining a talent point with each level. As another significant change, you will not be able to put points into a different talent tree until you have dedicated 31 talent points to your primary specialization. While leveling, this will be possible at 70. Picking a talent specialization should feel important. To that end, we want to make sure new players understand the significance of reaching the bottom of their specialization tree before gaining the option of spending points in the other trees. We intend to make sure dual-specialization and re-talenting function exactly as they do today so players do not feel locked into their specialization choice.

A True Mastery

The original passive Mastery bonuses players were to receive according to how they spent points in each tree are being replaced by the automatic passive bonuses earned when a tree specialization is chosen. These passives are flat percentages and we no longer intend for them to scale with the number of talent points spent. The Mastery bonus that was unique to each tree will now be derived from the Mastery stat, found on high-level items, and Mastery will be a passive skill learned from class trainers around level 75. In most cases, the Mastery stats will be the same as the tree-unique bonuses we announced earlier this year. These stats can be improved by stacking Mastery Rating found on high-level items.
[/blizzquote]


Blue posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
"Old" masteries
I would not focus too much on the old masteries, except for the third one that scales with gear. That one is still around.

Vengeance for tanks is still around and dps get damage and healers get healing and that sort of thing but the system has changed quite a bit overall (and partially as a result of community feedback). (Source)

Next beta build will be interesting
We want to unveil the entire enchilada in the next beta build or so. Everyone here worked really hard to get the whole package to a relatively playable and polished state. In essence we're not announcing a future plan -- we're telling you how the game works today. It's all done.

It's hard to offer timelines for when we will do a new beta push, but we're talking days or a few weeks, not months. All of the passives will be visible then. (Source)

Talent Points gain rate
About one every other level, but there are some exceptions. We are trying to alternate new abilities and talent points where possible. You will have 41 talent points at 85. (Source)

Spec abilities scaling
Specialization-defining abilities that are unlocked (e.g. Mutilate, Penance, Water Elemental and Mortal Strike) will scale based on a character's level and reflect an appropriate amount of damage, healing, and mitigation, etc. With the proper balancing, having these abilities at level 10 won't trivialize the leveling experience, but instead enhance it by allowing players to incorporate unique spells and skills that highlight their specialization into their rotations at a much earlier level.

We'll be closely monitoring how these new talent changes affect gameplay in the beta and will make adjustments to the system if necessary to ensure that our original goals are met. (Source)

Dual Spec
Dual Spec won't change. If you choose Protection paladin at level 10, you can respec to Ret paladin at your class trainer. Once you unlock Dual Spec, you can have 2 Prot builds or a Prot and Ret build or whatever you'd like. It will work almost exactly the way it does now. (Source)

New Talent system is ZOMG AMAZING
It's ZOMG AMAZING. We wouldn't go through all the work it is taking if we weren't convinced it was 100% win.

On your first point, too many of the specs didn't really feel like their spec until they had spent a lot of talents in the tree. All mages pretty much played the same until level 30 to 40 or so. Even with the Cataclysm changes, a Holy, Prot and Ret paladin would pretty much be using Crusader Strike and Judgements until they had several more abilities unlocked.

On your second point, we know some players liked the option of spending some points in the first tree and then some in the second tree. Often this was just a trap for new players though because it delays your getting the 21, 31 and other "gold medal" talents that really define your tree. Experienced players might learn to get a 5/5/5 build or whatever and then respec once they could reach the 31, but we could also just make better trees that didn't ask you to do that. (Source)

How big are the new trees?
They have 38-42 or so points in them. You could spend all 41 points in one tree, though often you'll want a 5/5/31 or a 0/7/34 build instead. Every talent is 1, 2 or 3 talent points. Earlier levels have about 8 points on them (typically a 2, 2, 3) and deeper levels have about 5 points on them (typically a 1, 2, 3). (Source)

New Talent trees overview
They look superficially like vanilla talent trees, but they are far more interesting.

Almost without exception, the talents we cut were the ones everyone took or the ones nobody took. There will still be very attractive talents that probably everyone takes, but there are also definitely choices where you can only take A or B and want both. Typically you might see a useful (but not necessarily dps-enhancing) ability in your own tree, but also a really attractive one in another tree.

This is a good thing. It won't surprise me to see a knee jerk reaction from some players that we're removing their favorite talents and "dumbing down the trees." However, I'd challenge them that there can't be that many players out there that play Arcane because of Mind Mastery or Arms warrior because of Strength of Arms. Yet, if you skip either of those talents, you're just making your character less effective.

A Cataclysm goal is to remove lame or boring talents. Yet we don't want to replace all of those with procs or game-changers. Really the only solution is to have smaller trees where nearly every remaining talent is a big deal. (Source)

Hybrid builds and active talents
You typically won't get active abilities from a second tree. The most you can get in a second tree is 10 points, and usually the active abilities are deeper than this. We think it makes the distinction between say a Frost and Unholy DK more pronounced when all of their talented active abilities are different rather than being able to cherry pick the best from each tree. It does end up killing any chance for a build that goes halfway down two trees, but usually we would consider such builds failures because it meant the bottom of "your" tree wasn't good enough. These were most popular in PvP when players felt compelled to get "must have" PvP survival talents in multiple trees, and those are the kind of talents we want dead anyway.

With these changes though, the talent trees are going to be even more rebuilt than we were already planning with Cataclysm. Talents are moving all over the trees and every tree has new talents as well. We'll give you a chance to see the trees soon (tm). (Source)

Current talents are too complicated
The new model theoretically buys us several more expansions of not having to mess with the overarching talent tree design. In a broader sense though, one of the challenges of working on World of Warcraft is adding new content without making the game totally inaccessible to new players.

I have used this example several times, but we have one very senior designer at Blizzard who isn't working on WoW but obviously knows the game very well and has been very active in PvP and raiding at various points in time. He took a short break from the game (I suspect to play Modern Warfare 2) and when he came back, we had messed around with his class's talent trees and reset his talent points, so he felt like he couldn't jump back into the game again without spending 45 minutes researching what the community thought a good build would be. We're hoping with simpler (but still deep!) talent trees, players like him will feel more comfortable picking their own talents. He might eventually go poke around in theorycrafting forums to min / max his build, but he won't have the moment of being completely overwhelmed when looking at a blank talent tree. (Source)

In previous expansions, more choices were given to the players in terms of how they built their characters. Players were freely given the choice to spend points however they want.
[...] While that is true, they were also given ample opportunities to make mistakes, what we call "traps." A forum-savy player may know which are the dumb talents nobody takes or which are the mandatory ones that might at first glance seem too bland to take. But why have "choices" that are just there for new players or people who just want to swim against the stream just to be different? We'd rather have actual legitimate choices, which we feel like we can offer by having a stable of fewer good talents.

To use one of the infamous GC analogies, the best restaurants are not necessarily those with a lot of entrees on the menu. The best restaurants probably have very few choices, but you know that anything you order will be great. They don't bother cooking it if they know it will suck. That's a real choice as opposed to the diner with fish on the menu that everyone, ever the waitress, whispers under their breath that you should never, ever order. (Source)

Dungeon Finder and new talent system
We expect a lot of players to use Dungeon Finder while leveling up. The feature works great for that, and we're spending some effort to update the older dungeons to not be so overspawned and in some cases to even fit into the zone quest content better.

Likewise, we're making an effort to let tank and healing specs be more effective when soloing. DPS specs will still probably be more efficient leveling, but if you just love the Resto shaman tree, you should be able to quest and run some dungeons without even having a dual-spec. It won't be spectacular, but it will be a huge improvement from today.

Tanks and healers will get basic abilities before level 15 (when Dungeon Finder is available) to do their jobs, but it's also true that the lower level content is more forgiving of your talent spec. (Source)

Vengeance
You get it at level 10 for choosing a tanking tree. It already scaled with your health and incoming damage, so there isn't really a need for it to scale with talent points spent (especially since nearly 100% of tanks spend the most points in a tanking tree). (Source)

Death Knight (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator)
When do DK get to pick a specialization?
When they get their first talent point for completing a quest. (Source)

Deleted talents
Looking at Unholy, talents like Impurity, Desolation, Wandering Plague, Crypt Fever (but not Ebon Plaguebringer) and Rage of Rivendare (sad about the lore hit there) are gone. (Source)

Druid (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator)
Feral builds with the new system
Feral is a challenge. We still want to have a cat-centric, bear-centric or hybrid build. It has always been one of the more challenging trees to work on. (Source)

Omen of Clarity
Likewise, we're not sure what we'll do with Omen yet. The obvious choices are leave it Resto only, put it high enough for everyone to subspec or make it a trained ability. (Source)

Paladin (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator)
Divine Storm @LVL10 for Retribution
Divine Storm is a big deal because Retribution paladins get it at level 10. You'll get a new bottom o' the tree talent. (Source)

Priest (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator)
Mind Flay and Shadowform @LVL1x for Shadow
We really wanted to do this, but the more we thought about it, what does a level 10 Shadowform do? Spam Shadow Word: Pain? We'll probably give Shadow priests Mind Flay at level 10 and let them get Shadowform shortly after that. (Source)

Holy signature ability
We think healers will expect to get an actual heal (or some kind of defensive ability) as their signature spell, but we also want something that's actually useful at level 10. Lightwell, Circle of Healing and even Spirit of Redemption are very signature Holy abilities, but none are very useful when soloing gnolls in Elwynn. (Source)

Rogue (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator)
Preparation
It's a design flaw that rogues and locks are so dependent on Prep and Soul Link respectively. Those talents are currently holding the classes back. Now we can't balance around the assumption that you have those talents so your classes need to function without them. Maybe it means lowering base cooldowns.... (Source)

Shadowstep
Naturally, the 31-point Shadow Dance is totally inaccessible to Rogues speccing other trees. But what about Shadowstep? Is that a tree-specific, unpointed talent that is totally inaccessible to all other specs?
Inaccessible. Shadowstep is essentially no longer a talent. There is nowhere to buy it. You don't get any passive bonuses for picking your second tree. Essentially you choose at level 10 whether to be an Assassination, Combat or Subtlety rogue, and while you can change your mind later, that determines what special ability and what passives you get. (Source)

Shaman (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator)
Dual Wield for Enhancement
So now my cagey comments about how Enhancement gets dual-wield right away and Elemental never gets it make more sense. (Source)

Warlock (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator)
Soul Link
It's a design flaw that rogues and locks are so dependent on Prep and Soul Link respectively. Those talents are currently holding the classes back. Now we can't balance around the assumption that you have those talents so your classes need to function without them. Maybe it means lowering base cooldowns.... (Source)

Probably no early Felguard for Demonology
It probably won't be Felguard. It's a little odd to spring that on a warlock that doesn't even have a Voidwalker yet. (Source)

Cool talents aren't going away
Warlocks are hard.

With a mage, you can keep Frost from throwing a lot of Fireballs just by making Frost do Frost damage. The warlocks don't have schools like that, and they have some shared spells, so it's tricky to get them to use the spells we want them to use sometimes. None of the cool talents, the ones that change up what you're doing, such as Molten Core or Backdraft, are going away. (Source)

Warrior (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator)
Mortal Strike
It depends. Improved Mortal Strike for example is gone and that's just the way Mortal Strike hits now (we added the damage and cooldown into MS). (Source)

Shield Slam @LVL10 for Protection
Protection warriors get Shield Slam (and Arms and Fury lose it). Devastate is still an attractive talent deep in the tree, but it doesn't say "Prot warrior" the way Shield Slam does. (Source)

Toughness stays, Vitality is a passive bonus
Protection has one passive talent, which is Toughness. They get Vitality as a passive for choosing Protection at level 10. The other talents are a mix of threat and defensive abilities, but none are as passive as Deflection. There are (hopefully) attractive talents in the first two tiers of Arms and Fury. The other tank trees will be similar but not identical (Feral as always will be the least similar). (Source)

Specialization Bonus - Anger Management and 2H Weapon Spec for Arms
The Arms one for the moment is Two-Handed Weapon Spec (+10% damage with two-Handed weapons) and Anger Management (free rage). (Source)

Arms - Mastery bonus in Cataclysm
Mastery still exists, but the design is a little cleaner.

Before:
Arms got some passive damage per talent point.
Arms got some passive armor pen per talent point.
Arms got a chance to proc a swing per talent point, which is enhanced by mastery rating on gear.

Now:
Arms gets whatever it needs as passives at level 10.
Arms gets a chance to proc a swing at level 78(ish), which is enhanced by mastery rating on gear.

Mastery now means "proc a swing" for Arms and that's all it means, which is easier to understand. (Source)
This article was originally published in forum thread: Cataclysm Class & Mastery Systems Update started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 699 Comments
  1. Butterbumps's Avatar
    Ghostcrawler also ruled out Tree of Life and Bestial Wrath.
  1. Multigasm's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuronv View Post
    I'm predicting the following specialization abilities

    Druid:
    Balance - Typhoon
    Feral - Mangle
    Resto - Tree of Life

    Hunter:
    Beast Mastery - Bestial Wrath
    Marksmanship - Chimera Shot (aimed shot baseline)
    Survival - Wyvern Sting

    Mage:
    Arcane - Slow
    Fire - Living Bomb
    Frost - Water Elemental

    Paladin:
    Holy - Holy Shock
    Prot - Holy Shield
    Ret - Divine Storm

    Priest:
    Disc - Penance
    Holy - Guardian Spirit
    Shadow - Mind Flay

    Rgoue:
    Assassination - Mutilate
    Combat - Blade Flurry
    Sub - Hemorrhage

    Shaman:
    Elemental - Thunderstorm
    Enhancement - Duel Wield
    Resto - Earth Shield

    Warlock:
    Affliction - Unstable Affliction
    Demonology - Felguard
    Destruction - Chaosbolt

    Warrior:
    Arms - Mortal Strike
    Fury - Bloodthirst
    Prot - Shield Slam
    I highly doubt that they would make Arcane Mage the only DPS class to not get a DPS talent in the 31st point spot, if they did that would be the biggest slap in the face to everyone that plays arcane. With that being said I dont know if I should be exictied or scared that Mages are the only class they didnt make reference to in the Blue Post :-|
  1. loriel's Avatar
    gj blizz now we are all druids, one tree builds bah
  1. Liminal's Avatar
    Blizz has already stated that Holy Shock for Pallys will be baseline

    you will probably be looking at something even more stupid like the Angel Summon skill

    who knows
  1. Kilmir's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuronv View Post
    Warlock:
    Affliction - Unstable Affliction
    Demonology - Felguard
    Destruction - Chaosbolt
    Chaosbolt is likely, and Unstable Affliction is a possibility (though I doubt it).
    Demonology not a Felguard. You are still collecting demons then so giving a demon lock the be-all end-all pet right at the start is asinine.
    The Demon tree is centered around beefing or using your pet powers. So any of the talents that beefs pets is most likely to be added: Master Dem., Dem Emp. or Dem. Pact are much more likely candidates to start off with from the start.

    They could also emphasize the link with the Demon and give the Fel Synergy, Manatap or Dem. Knowledge talents to give a more dynamic link with the demons.

    Honestly I'd love Demonic Pact for early locks. It's currently a signature ability of Demon Locks, even more so then the Felguard or Meta.
  1. GrandpaYassy's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by rumbling View Post
    First good thing in Cataclysm (well, not really - flying over thunder bluff is pretty cool). They should have done this one expansion ago, now go make few but intresting talents and give us real choice in how to put our points! 20 different builds where only one is good enough is not a choice in any reasonable definition of the word.

    EDIT: The point of making you put atleast 31pts in the tree of your choice is ofcourse to avoid stupidity like prot-warriors with mortal strike and elemental shamans with earth shield and so on. Cuz that would be a monster to try to balance.
    You're probably right with that being the reason. However it wouldn't be an issue to balance necessarily because of dual wielding elemental shaman and anything akin to it. What I think is being overlooked is the fact that a shaman can select enhancement to receive the enhancemnt perks like dual wield. However they also receive useless melée abilities and they lose the elemental mastery perks. So would it really be hard to balance an elemental shaman who has melée mastery skills? I doubt it highly. Particularly when said elemental shaman doesn't have it's core class defining abilities.

    Personally I disagree with the whole you should feel like your talent spec argument which blizzard also uses to justify their 31 point rule. The system should be you should feel like your CHARACTER. And if that's a dual wielding elemental shaman then they should support that playstyle. I don't see anything wrog with cherry picking. Nothing blizzard does will ever remove players from doing that. Anything competitive requires it.
  1. Fortuitous's Avatar
    I think I am going to stop reading forums now, I can't believe how blindly ignorant and passionately retarded some people are.

    These changes are 100% for the better, they make each talent point significantly more important and feel paramount to your characters development. Choosing how you will play your character at level 10, rather than getting that experience around 60+ is a massive improvement that will not only bring in a lot of new blood to the game, but let people play characters they might not have thought to before.

    Already, I can imagine leveling a warrior as protection will be a lot more fun with sword and board with shield slam, which might put more tanks potentially being in the dungeon tool. Everyone wins from this. Why are people honestly complaining? Why am I even surprised people are complaining?
  1. Mem's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Butterbumps View Post
    The reason they are locking players into a tree is so that they can give access to some of the powerful, formerly high-level spec specific abilities earlier. They can not make the latter cool change without doing the former. It's a trade-off.

    They're basically saying at level 10 "we'll let you have, right now, one of the iconic abilities (plus various passive benefits) associated with your chosen spec, that you previously wouldn't have gotten until you were 30 or 40 talent points deep, as long as you commit to spending your first 31 points in that tree". It seems like a fair deal to me.
    ^ This.

    9-something pages later...just this is new.
  1. Fichek's Avatar
    So.. They are giving us choices by limiting us to only one tree, 3/4 of which we would have to fill up before we even have a chance of putting a point in another tree. Am i missing something here? Has the word "choice" suddenly had it's meaning changed to the opposite?

    I'm not against simplifying needlessly complicated game mechanics, but this is clearly overdoing it. Yet they talk about depth.. Filling one tree almost completely before moving to the next is depth? Words quickly change their meaning when Blizzard is using them.

    The funny thing is, they probably feel this will rid us of cookie-cutter specs, yet they don't realize that those kind of specs will be more prevalent then before. Cookie-cutter specs are usually a result of extensive testing of different talents by many people. When the the numbers are analyzed, you get a clear picture of the state of certain talents and how important it is to grab that exact talent.. With talent trees less bloated it will be even easier to figure out "that perfect spec" for a certain role. You can not make a perfect tree. Some talents will always be more favored than the others. That's unavoidable. If you want to raid high tier content you will need to put out max dps/hps/survival possible and you will only do it if you have a certain combination of talents and that is how a cookie-cutter spec is born.

    The thing i do like is getting signature abilities early on. But i would gladly sacrifice that for the ability to pick talents from different trees. I can't even imagine how it would be like leveling a priest without spirit tap. And those 3 points in spirit tap were the only points spent in shadow until i hit 60 and switched to shadow completely. As i love leveling, i really want my leveling process to be as enjoyable as possible, and a great part of that enjoyment is the flexibility i have when picking talents. I guess that will be replaced by "signature ability"

    One more thing. Blizzard should stop catering to beginners. Those who weren't interested in what talents do, and were just clicking them randomly after getting a talent point, wont change with less talents to pick from. I guess you are going with "no mistake whichever talent you pick" route. And i can understand that if it wasn't so already. I can't even remember how many times i've ran into a dude with 0/0/71 or 0/71/0.. So even now people are just putting everything into one tree without even thinking about it, so why are you forcing us, who actually know what we want and how to play, to play as someone who just bought the game and has no idea what's he doing.

    I don't like the change but let's see what becomes of it.
  1. Aildaris's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuronv View Post
    I'm predicting the following specialization abilities
    Paladin:
    Holy - Holy Shock
    Prot - Holy Shield
    Ret - Divine Storm
    Holy Shock is going baseline so that is not going to be the holy baseline ability. It could possibly be beacon or there is the possibility that they give entirely new abilities as the base ability but I doubt it.
  1. DeManiac's Avatar
    Finally the amount of change I've been expecting all along, maybe it's not time to give up just yet.
    Still, I miss the path of titans, which would have been a "shared" talent tree amongst all players.

    This was sort of what I expected at first when they said they were remaking the talent trees to make each point was valuable, and now that they are stripping the talents down finally, they make it easy for themselfs not having to invent allot of new ones, instead they take away the boring ones and encapsulate them in the already existing ones, which in return make these even more attractive.

    If rend does by default 20% more damage, overpower has 50% increased critical strike chance and a few more additions, then they will be more useful by default and abilities which makes them more useful, such as Taste for Blood in arms, will indeed be more interesting at lower levels by new aswel as veteran players.


    What I feel is a little sad about this change is the fact that you cannot find these "loop holes" that makes everyday playing fun, and it lowers meta gaming.
    If that's a bad or good thing, that's already addressed in the blue post.
    I for one were thinking of leveling as a worgen prot warrior just because they've changed so much how the revenge skill that was in vanilla and most of tbc totally useless, works, that so many talents affect it's damage, now with shield slam at level 10 already it will be different, but less effective? I don't think so, rather, much more enjoyable.
  1. dek's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Fichek View Post
    So.. They are giving us choices by limiting us to only one tree, 3/4 of which we would have to fill up before we even have a chance of putting a point in another tree. Am i missing something here? Has the word "choice" suddenly had it's meaning changed to the opposite?

    I'm not against simplifying needlessly complicated game mechanics, but this is clearly overdoing it. Yet they talk about depth.. Filling one tree almost completely before moving to the next is depth? Words quickly change their meaning when Blizzard is using them.

    The funny thing is, they probably feel this will rid us of cookie-cutter specs, yet they don't realize that those kind of specs will be more prevalent then before. Cookie-cutter specs are usually a result of extensive testing of different talents by many people. When the the numbers are analyzed, you get a clear picture of the state of certain talents and how important it is to grab that exact talent.. With talent trees less bloated it will be even easier to figure out "that perfect spec" for a certain role. You can not make a perfect tree. Some talents will always be more favored than the others. That's unavoidable. If you want to raid high tier content you will need to put out max dps/hps/survival possible and you will only do it if you have a certain combination of talents and that is how a cookie-cutter spec is born.

    The thing i do like is getting signature abilities early on. But i would gladly sacrifice that for the ability to pick talents from different trees. I can't even imagine how it would be like leveling a priest without spirit tap. And those 3 points in spirit tap were the only points spent in shadow until i hit 60 and switched to shadow completely. As i love leveling, i really want my leveling process to be as enjoyable as possible, and a great part of that enjoyment is the flexibility i have when picking talents. I guess that will be replaced by "signature ability"

    One more thing. Blizzard should stop catering to beginners. Those who weren't interested in what talents do, and were just clicking them randomly after getting a talent point, wont change with less talents to pick from. I guess you are going with "no mistake whichever talent you pick" route. And i can understand that if it wasn't so already. I can't even remember how many times i've ran into a dude with 0/0/71 or 0/71/0.. So even now people are just putting everything into one tree without even thinking about it, so why are you forcing us, who actually know what we want and how to play, to play as someone who just bought the game and has no idea what's he doing.

    I don't like the change but let's see what becomes of it.
    your problems with the change are all based on the faulty premise that you really had choice before.

    you technically had choices, but it basically allowed you to choose to suck, if you were inclined. as far as actual good specs went, there was very little wiggle room even within the same tree, and pretty much no room between trees.

    if the good spec didn't take the bottom of the tree, that's a failure of design, not a matter of choice. if that is the good spec, then taking the bottom isn't really a choice unless you wanted to suck.

    the blue poster called them traps, and that's what they were.

    they intend to design the trees in such a way that you want to fill out that tree eventually anyways. the choice comes in within that tree. sure, i doubt there will be an overwhelming number of possibilities, but their stated goal is that each possibility will be about on par with the others, meaning you might have fewer things to choose from but actually more valid selections among them.
  1. Skulver's Avatar
    So how much does this improve your flexibility and choice in choosing talents.

    At level 10: Very important choice, very meaningful choice.
    At any odd numbered level below 80: No talent, total loss of choice.
    At any even numbered level below or at 70: Restricted to the same tree you chose at lvl 10, much more restricted choice than you have now.
    At even levels above 70 or any level over 80: The same amount of choice you have now.

    For the vast amount of levels you will gain this restricts your choice. If you want to respec at lvl 80 or higher your choices will be far more restricted.

    Yes, this will probably improve the levelling experience but what percentage of your game time is that? 5%? 10%? If you are playing most of your time on a max level char your choices have been curtailed greatly. There are now 3 fixed talent specs for each class with only minor variations between them.

    For the 30 talent points after the first, your choice in where to spend them has, at best, been reduced by 66%. If you like the design fine, but be realistic, at level 85 you will have less talent points and more restrictions on where you spend them than you had at level 60. I think people are getting a bit carried away, dreaming of how meaningful that first talent will be and forgetting that extra meaning for that one talent comes at the cost of losing over half your talent points and most of your choice on where to spend the next 30 talent points.
  1. Peeb's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenryusho View Post
    Sigh... So they want to remove the feeling of "Oh great I leveled and got 1% hit" and replace it with "Oh yay I level and get absolutely nothing". The entire reason I played WoW was because of the talent trees and I have no desired to go back to 31 talents to a tree.
    So only thing you did in-game was playing with talent trees? Umm...
  1. Bucky Mclachlan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by butterbumps View Post
    uh, some people seem to be under the impression that spending 31 points in a tree will get you all of the talents, so there will be no choices between talents any more. At no point is this stated or implied.
    pay attention people
  1. barsam's Avatar
    If I get DW on my shaman right at lvl10 I'll be happy! Might finally finish leveling one...

    Anyways... Sounds very interesting and intriguing.Can't wait to see this...
  1. Kenai's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by dek View Post
    your problems with the change are all based on the faulty premise that you really had choice before.

    you technically had choices, but it basically allowed you to choose to suck, if you were inclined. as far as actual good specs went, there was very little wiggle room even within the same tree, and pretty much no room between trees.

    if the good spec didn't take the bottom of the tree, that's a failure of design, not a matter of choice. if that is the good spec, then taking the bottom isn't really a choice unless you wanted to suck.

    the blue poster called them traps, and that's what they were.

    they intend to design the trees in such a way that you want to fill out that tree eventually anyways. the choice comes in within that tree. sure, i doubt there will be an overwhelming number of possibilities, but their stated goal is that each possibility will be about on par with the others, meaning you might have fewer things to choose from but actually more valid selections among them.
    Please listen to this post. It's exactly my problem with the talent trees as they are now.

    Being "unique" is nice to a point, but when your choices actually make your toon terrible because of a crappy talent spread, it's not a real choice, and everyone suffers when you decide to join a group (whether you are 5/5/5 or 71/0/0). Yes, it is your choice to play how you want, but there should be a limit on the detriment you cause to others, and when a newb gets talent choices how can they know any better? This talent revamp is literally trimming the fat. I don't think this is going to remove cookie cutter specs, but if all of the talent choices are more useful overall, then a non cookie cutter spec can still be viable. Let's just admit they really aren't right now, with the exception of maybe 1-2 odd talents points, which isn't a huge devation.

    The other aspect I like is that a toon getting a class/spec defining ability at low levels means:
    a) They have a better understanding of what this job will be expected to do as they level, so the choice of whether or not to continue at level 10 becomes more meaningful, and
    b) They can practice those class defining roles at an earlier level to get better at it sooner.

    I really don't see the problem here.
  1. Rageberries's Avatar
    This. Is. So.



    AWESOME!
  1. Mingmei's Avatar
    This sucks.. No intention at all of playing cata now anymore.
  1. Yazus's Avatar
    But... You have 45 points. A tree have what... 45-47 points? So IF you decide to fully spec into Prot, lets say, you can be 0/45/0 but be fully prot... and get all the talents.

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