MMO-Champion - Cataclysm Class & Mastery Systems Update
Update - I moved the "To Recap" part at the top of the post for those of you who hate walls of text. I also added a couple of blue posts about these changes

Cataclysm Class & Mastery Systems Update
[blizzquote author=Zarhym source=http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/25626290449/cataclysm-class-amp-mastery-systems-update/]When we first announced our design goals for class talent trees back at BlizzCon 2009, one of our major stated focuses was to remove some of the boring and "mandatory" passive talents. We mentioned that we wanted talent choices to feel more flavorful and fun, yet more meaningful at the same time. Recently, we had our fansites release information on work-in-progress talent tree previews for druids, priests, shaman, and rogues. From those previews and via alpha test feedback, a primary response we heard was that these trees didn’t incorporate the original design goals discussed at BlizzCon. This response echoes something we have been feeling internally for some time, namely that the talent tree system has not aged well since we first increased the level cap beyond level 60. In an upcoming beta build, we will unveil bold overhauls of all 30 talent trees.

To Recap
When players reach level 10, they are presented with basic information on the three specializations within their class and are asked to choose one. Then they spend their talent point. The other trees darken and are unavailable until 31 points are spent in the chosen tree. The character is awarded an active ability, and one or more passive bonuses unique to the tree they've chosen. As they gain levels, they'll alternate between receiving a talent point and gaining new skills. They'll have a 31-point tree to work down, with each talent being more integral and exciting than they have been in the past. Once they spend their 31'st point in the final talent (at level 70), the other trees open up and become available to allocate points into from then on. As characters move into the level 78+ areas in Cataclysm, they'll begin seeing items with a new stat, Mastery. Once they learn the Mastery skill from their class trainer they'll receive bonuses from the stat based on the tree they've specialized in.

We understand that these are significant changes and we still have details to solidify. We feel, however, that these changes better fulfill our original class design goals for Cataclysm, and we're confident that they will make for a better gameplay experience. Your constructive feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

Talent Tree Vision

One of the basic tenets of Blizzard game design is that of “concentrated coolness.” We’d rather have a simpler design with a lot of depth, than a complicated but shallow design. The goal for Cataclysm remains to remove a lot of the passive (or lame) talents, but we don’t think that’s possible with the current tree size. To resolve this, we're reducing each tree to 31-point talents. With this reduction in tree size we need to make sure they're being purchased along a similar leveling curve, and therefore will also be reducing the number of total talent points and the speed at which they're awarded during the leveling process.

As a result, we can keep the unique talents in each tree, particularly those which provide new spells, abilities or mechanics. We’ll still have room for extra flavorful talents and room for player customization, but we can trim a great deal of fat from each tree. The idea isn’t to give players fewer choices, but to make those choices feel more meaningful. Your rotations won’t change and you won’t lose any cool talents. What will change are all of the filler talents you had to pick up to get to the next fun talent, as well as most talents that required 5 of your hard-earned points.

We are also taking a hard look at many of the mandatory PvP talents, such as spell pushback or mechanic duration reductions. While there will always be PvP vs. PvE builds, we’d like for the difference to be less extreme, so that players don’t feel like they necessarily need to spend their second talent specialization on a PvP build.

The Rise of Specialization

We want to focus the talent trees towards your chosen style of gameplay right away. That first point you spend in a tree should be very meaningful. If you choose Enhancement, we want you to feel like an Enhancement shaman right away, not thirty talent points later. When talent trees are unlocked at level 10, you will be asked to choose your specialization (e.g. whether you want to be an Arms, Fury or Protection warrior) before spending that first point. Making this choice comes with certain benefits, including whatever passive bonuses you need to be effective in that role, and a signature ability that used to be buried deeper in the talent trees. These abilities and bonuses are only available by specializing in a specific tree. Each tree awards its own unique active ability and passives when chosen. The passive bonuses range from flat percentage increases, like a 20% increase to Fire damage for Fire mages or spell range increases for casters, to more interesting passives such as the passive rage regeneration of the former Anger Management talent for Arms warriors, Dual-Wield Specialization for Fury warriors and Combat rogues, or the ability to dual-wield itself for Enhancement shaman.

The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees couldn’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance.

Getting Down to the Grit

Talent trees will have around 20 unique talents instead of today's (roughly) 30 talents, and aesthetically will look a bit more like the original World of Warcraft talent trees. The 31-point talents will generally be the same as the 51-point talents we already had planned for Cataclysm. A lot of the boring or extremely specialized talents have been removed, but we don't want to remove anything that’s going to affect spell/ability rotations. We want to keep overall damage, healing, and survivability roughly the same while providing a lot of the passive bonuses for free based on your specialization choice.

While leveling, you will get 1 talent point about every 2 levels (41 points total at level 85). Our goal is to alternate between gaining a new class spell or ability and gaining a talent point with each level. As another significant change, you will not be able to put points into a different talent tree until you have dedicated 31 talent points to your primary specialization. While leveling, this will be possible at 70. Picking a talent specialization should feel important. To that end, we want to make sure new players understand the significance of reaching the bottom of their specialization tree before gaining the option of spending points in the other trees. We intend to make sure dual-specialization and re-talenting function exactly as they do today so players do not feel locked into their specialization choice.

A True Mastery

The original passive Mastery bonuses players were to receive according to how they spent points in each tree are being replaced by the automatic passive bonuses earned when a tree specialization is chosen. These passives are flat percentages and we no longer intend for them to scale with the number of talent points spent. The Mastery bonus that was unique to each tree will now be derived from the Mastery stat, found on high-level items, and Mastery will be a passive skill learned from class trainers around level 75. In most cases, the Mastery stats will be the same as the tree-unique bonuses we announced earlier this year. These stats can be improved by stacking Mastery Rating found on high-level items.
[/blizzquote]


Blue posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
"Old" masteries
I would not focus too much on the old masteries, except for the third one that scales with gear. That one is still around.

Vengeance for tanks is still around and dps get damage and healers get healing and that sort of thing but the system has changed quite a bit overall (and partially as a result of community feedback). (Source)

Next beta build will be interesting
We want to unveil the entire enchilada in the next beta build or so. Everyone here worked really hard to get the whole package to a relatively playable and polished state. In essence we're not announcing a future plan -- we're telling you how the game works today. It's all done.

It's hard to offer timelines for when we will do a new beta push, but we're talking days or a few weeks, not months. All of the passives will be visible then. (Source)

Talent Points gain rate
About one every other level, but there are some exceptions. We are trying to alternate new abilities and talent points where possible. You will have 41 talent points at 85. (Source)

Spec abilities scaling
Specialization-defining abilities that are unlocked (e.g. Mutilate, Penance, Water Elemental and Mortal Strike) will scale based on a character's level and reflect an appropriate amount of damage, healing, and mitigation, etc. With the proper balancing, having these abilities at level 10 won't trivialize the leveling experience, but instead enhance it by allowing players to incorporate unique spells and skills that highlight their specialization into their rotations at a much earlier level.

We'll be closely monitoring how these new talent changes affect gameplay in the beta and will make adjustments to the system if necessary to ensure that our original goals are met. (Source)

Dual Spec
Dual Spec won't change. If you choose Protection paladin at level 10, you can respec to Ret paladin at your class trainer. Once you unlock Dual Spec, you can have 2 Prot builds or a Prot and Ret build or whatever you'd like. It will work almost exactly the way it does now. (Source)

New Talent system is ZOMG AMAZING
It's ZOMG AMAZING. We wouldn't go through all the work it is taking if we weren't convinced it was 100% win.

On your first point, too many of the specs didn't really feel like their spec until they had spent a lot of talents in the tree. All mages pretty much played the same until level 30 to 40 or so. Even with the Cataclysm changes, a Holy, Prot and Ret paladin would pretty much be using Crusader Strike and Judgements until they had several more abilities unlocked.

On your second point, we know some players liked the option of spending some points in the first tree and then some in the second tree. Often this was just a trap for new players though because it delays your getting the 21, 31 and other "gold medal" talents that really define your tree. Experienced players might learn to get a 5/5/5 build or whatever and then respec once they could reach the 31, but we could also just make better trees that didn't ask you to do that. (Source)

How big are the new trees?
They have 38-42 or so points in them. You could spend all 41 points in one tree, though often you'll want a 5/5/31 or a 0/7/34 build instead. Every talent is 1, 2 or 3 talent points. Earlier levels have about 8 points on them (typically a 2, 2, 3) and deeper levels have about 5 points on them (typically a 1, 2, 3). (Source)

New Talent trees overview
They look superficially like vanilla talent trees, but they are far more interesting.

Almost without exception, the talents we cut were the ones everyone took or the ones nobody took. There will still be very attractive talents that probably everyone takes, but there are also definitely choices where you can only take A or B and want both. Typically you might see a useful (but not necessarily dps-enhancing) ability in your own tree, but also a really attractive one in another tree.

This is a good thing. It won't surprise me to see a knee jerk reaction from some players that we're removing their favorite talents and "dumbing down the trees." However, I'd challenge them that there can't be that many players out there that play Arcane because of Mind Mastery or Arms warrior because of Strength of Arms. Yet, if you skip either of those talents, you're just making your character less effective.

A Cataclysm goal is to remove lame or boring talents. Yet we don't want to replace all of those with procs or game-changers. Really the only solution is to have smaller trees where nearly every remaining talent is a big deal. (Source)

Hybrid builds and active talents
You typically won't get active abilities from a second tree. The most you can get in a second tree is 10 points, and usually the active abilities are deeper than this. We think it makes the distinction between say a Frost and Unholy DK more pronounced when all of their talented active abilities are different rather than being able to cherry pick the best from each tree. It does end up killing any chance for a build that goes halfway down two trees, but usually we would consider such builds failures because it meant the bottom of "your" tree wasn't good enough. These were most popular in PvP when players felt compelled to get "must have" PvP survival talents in multiple trees, and those are the kind of talents we want dead anyway.

With these changes though, the talent trees are going to be even more rebuilt than we were already planning with Cataclysm. Talents are moving all over the trees and every tree has new talents as well. We'll give you a chance to see the trees soon (tm). (Source)

Current talents are too complicated
The new model theoretically buys us several more expansions of not having to mess with the overarching talent tree design. In a broader sense though, one of the challenges of working on World of Warcraft is adding new content without making the game totally inaccessible to new players.

I have used this example several times, but we have one very senior designer at Blizzard who isn't working on WoW but obviously knows the game very well and has been very active in PvP and raiding at various points in time. He took a short break from the game (I suspect to play Modern Warfare 2) and when he came back, we had messed around with his class's talent trees and reset his talent points, so he felt like he couldn't jump back into the game again without spending 45 minutes researching what the community thought a good build would be. We're hoping with simpler (but still deep!) talent trees, players like him will feel more comfortable picking their own talents. He might eventually go poke around in theorycrafting forums to min / max his build, but he won't have the moment of being completely overwhelmed when looking at a blank talent tree. (Source)

In previous expansions, more choices were given to the players in terms of how they built their characters. Players were freely given the choice to spend points however they want.
[...] While that is true, they were also given ample opportunities to make mistakes, what we call "traps." A forum-savy player may know which are the dumb talents nobody takes or which are the mandatory ones that might at first glance seem too bland to take. But why have "choices" that are just there for new players or people who just want to swim against the stream just to be different? We'd rather have actual legitimate choices, which we feel like we can offer by having a stable of fewer good talents.

To use one of the infamous GC analogies, the best restaurants are not necessarily those with a lot of entrees on the menu. The best restaurants probably have very few choices, but you know that anything you order will be great. They don't bother cooking it if they know it will suck. That's a real choice as opposed to the diner with fish on the menu that everyone, ever the waitress, whispers under their breath that you should never, ever order. (Source)

Dungeon Finder and new talent system
We expect a lot of players to use Dungeon Finder while leveling up. The feature works great for that, and we're spending some effort to update the older dungeons to not be so overspawned and in some cases to even fit into the zone quest content better.

Likewise, we're making an effort to let tank and healing specs be more effective when soloing. DPS specs will still probably be more efficient leveling, but if you just love the Resto shaman tree, you should be able to quest and run some dungeons without even having a dual-spec. It won't be spectacular, but it will be a huge improvement from today.

Tanks and healers will get basic abilities before level 15 (when Dungeon Finder is available) to do their jobs, but it's also true that the lower level content is more forgiving of your talent spec. (Source)

Vengeance
You get it at level 10 for choosing a tanking tree. It already scaled with your health and incoming damage, so there isn't really a need for it to scale with talent points spent (especially since nearly 100% of tanks spend the most points in a tanking tree). (Source)

Death Knight (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator)
When do DK get to pick a specialization?
When they get their first talent point for completing a quest. (Source)

Deleted talents
Looking at Unholy, talents like Impurity, Desolation, Wandering Plague, Crypt Fever (but not Ebon Plaguebringer) and Rage of Rivendare (sad about the lore hit there) are gone. (Source)

Druid (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator)
Feral builds with the new system
Feral is a challenge. We still want to have a cat-centric, bear-centric or hybrid build. It has always been one of the more challenging trees to work on. (Source)

Omen of Clarity
Likewise, we're not sure what we'll do with Omen yet. The obvious choices are leave it Resto only, put it high enough for everyone to subspec or make it a trained ability. (Source)

Paladin (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator)
Divine Storm @LVL10 for Retribution
Divine Storm is a big deal because Retribution paladins get it at level 10. You'll get a new bottom o' the tree talent. (Source)

Priest (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator)
Mind Flay and Shadowform @LVL1x for Shadow
We really wanted to do this, but the more we thought about it, what does a level 10 Shadowform do? Spam Shadow Word: Pain? We'll probably give Shadow priests Mind Flay at level 10 and let them get Shadowform shortly after that. (Source)

Holy signature ability
We think healers will expect to get an actual heal (or some kind of defensive ability) as their signature spell, but we also want something that's actually useful at level 10. Lightwell, Circle of Healing and even Spirit of Redemption are very signature Holy abilities, but none are very useful when soloing gnolls in Elwynn. (Source)

Rogue (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator)
Preparation
It's a design flaw that rogues and locks are so dependent on Prep and Soul Link respectively. Those talents are currently holding the classes back. Now we can't balance around the assumption that you have those talents so your classes need to function without them. Maybe it means lowering base cooldowns.... (Source)

Shadowstep
Naturally, the 31-point Shadow Dance is totally inaccessible to Rogues speccing other trees. But what about Shadowstep? Is that a tree-specific, unpointed talent that is totally inaccessible to all other specs?
Inaccessible. Shadowstep is essentially no longer a talent. There is nowhere to buy it. You don't get any passive bonuses for picking your second tree. Essentially you choose at level 10 whether to be an Assassination, Combat or Subtlety rogue, and while you can change your mind later, that determines what special ability and what passives you get. (Source)

Shaman (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator)
Dual Wield for Enhancement
So now my cagey comments about how Enhancement gets dual-wield right away and Elemental never gets it make more sense. (Source)

Warlock (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator)
Soul Link
It's a design flaw that rogues and locks are so dependent on Prep and Soul Link respectively. Those talents are currently holding the classes back. Now we can't balance around the assumption that you have those talents so your classes need to function without them. Maybe it means lowering base cooldowns.... (Source)

Probably no early Felguard for Demonology
It probably won't be Felguard. It's a little odd to spring that on a warlock that doesn't even have a Voidwalker yet. (Source)

Cool talents aren't going away
Warlocks are hard.

With a mage, you can keep Frost from throwing a lot of Fireballs just by making Frost do Frost damage. The warlocks don't have schools like that, and they have some shared spells, so it's tricky to get them to use the spells we want them to use sometimes. None of the cool talents, the ones that change up what you're doing, such as Molten Core or Backdraft, are going away. (Source)

Warrior (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator)
Mortal Strike
It depends. Improved Mortal Strike for example is gone and that's just the way Mortal Strike hits now (we added the damage and cooldown into MS). (Source)

Shield Slam @LVL10 for Protection
Protection warriors get Shield Slam (and Arms and Fury lose it). Devastate is still an attractive talent deep in the tree, but it doesn't say "Prot warrior" the way Shield Slam does. (Source)

Toughness stays, Vitality is a passive bonus
Protection has one passive talent, which is Toughness. They get Vitality as a passive for choosing Protection at level 10. The other talents are a mix of threat and defensive abilities, but none are as passive as Deflection. There are (hopefully) attractive talents in the first two tiers of Arms and Fury. The other tank trees will be similar but not identical (Feral as always will be the least similar). (Source)

Specialization Bonus - Anger Management and 2H Weapon Spec for Arms
The Arms one for the moment is Two-Handed Weapon Spec (+10% damage with two-Handed weapons) and Anger Management (free rage). (Source)

Arms - Mastery bonus in Cataclysm
Mastery still exists, but the design is a little cleaner.

Before:
Arms got some passive damage per talent point.
Arms got some passive armor pen per talent point.
Arms got a chance to proc a swing per talent point, which is enhanced by mastery rating on gear.

Now:
Arms gets whatever it needs as passives at level 10.
Arms gets a chance to proc a swing at level 78(ish), which is enhanced by mastery rating on gear.

Mastery now means "proc a swing" for Arms and that's all it means, which is easier to understand. (Source)
This article was originally published in forum thread: Cataclysm Class & Mastery Systems Update started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 699 Comments
  1. TobiasX's Avatar
    From what I can tell the short version seems to be: "We're making player class talents trees more like the Hunter Pet talent trees". After checking the Hunter Pet talent trees over this actually seems like a good idea.
  1. Manaspawn's Avatar
    seems like they are makin this game into somekinda movie you just walk along in... As a mage you either specc frost, fire or arcane, and you are either going to pick the talents for PvE or PvP... like today there wont be a choise but more a "perfect" specc... the talents should all be equally good and you should pick those you like ann not those you need... every1 will be running around with exactly the same gear and the same specc... how personal -.- *sigh*
  1. TobiasX's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Manaspawn View Post
    seems like they are makin this game into somekinda movie you just walk along in... As a mage you either specc frost, fire or arcane, and you are either going to pick the talents for PvE or PvP... like today there wont be a choise but more a "perfect" specc... the talents should all be equally good and you should pick those you like ann not those you need... every1 will be running around with exactly the same gear and the same specc... how personal -.- *sigh*
    It was like that in Burning Crusade.
    It was like that in Wrath of the Lich King.
    It'll almost certainly be like that in Cataclysm.
    It was probably like that in Vanilla among the raiding community.
    The reason is the existence of sites like ElitistJerks and players have becoming more professional about their choice of spec (e.g. you pick the CC spec because everybody else does).
  1. delage35's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by GrandpaYassy View Post
    I don't see anything wrog with cherry picking. Nothing blizzard does will ever remove players from doing that. Anything competitive requires it.
    Silly rabbit, blizz can certainly remove the cherries any time they want to. I don't think they've gone quite that far yet, but they've moved most of sweet ones out of reach.
  1. Orinoco's Avatar
    Brilliant idea I reckon, so long as it can be pulled off the way Blizzard are hoping. I did like the idea of having a spec that was roughly 50/50 between two trees but loosing that is worth it if we get rid of most mandatory talents and gain plenty of way to personalise our own specs.
  1. Sycobob's Avatar
    This sounds awesome. I'm stoked.
  1. GrandpaYassy's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by delage35 View Post
    Silly rabbit, blizz can certainly remove the cherries any time they want to. I don't think they've gone quite that far yet, but they've moved most of sweet ones out of reach.
    When i say cherry picking i mean picking the best. This change will do absolutely NOTHING to limit cherry picking in a competitive environment. With rated BG's coming into play it only promotes cherry picking more. So no, blizzard cant remove the cherries. There will ALWAYS be a best spec. And players will discover it, and copy eachother over it.
  1. Sonoka's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuronv View Post
    I'm predicting the following specialization abilities

    Druid:
    Balance - Typhoon
    Feral - Mangle
    Resto - Tree of Life

    Hunter:
    Beast Mastery - Bestial Wrath
    Marksmanship - Chimera Shot (aimed shot baseline)
    Survival - Wyvern Sting

    Mage:
    Arcane - Slow
    Fire - Living Bomb
    Frost - Water Elemental

    Paladin:
    Holy - Holy Shock
    Prot - Holy Shield
    Ret - Divine Storm

    Priest:
    Disc - Penance
    Holy - Guardian Spirit
    Shadow - Mind Flay

    Rgoue:
    Assassination - Mutilate
    Combat - Blade Flurry
    Sub - Hemorrhage

    Shaman:
    Elemental - Thunderstorm
    Enhancement - Duel Wield
    Resto - Earth Shield

    Warlock:
    Affliction - Unstable Affliction
    Demonology - Felguard
    Destruction - Chaosbolt

    Warrior:
    Arms - Mortal Strike
    Fury - Bloodthirst
    Prot - Shield Slam
    Rogue Sub = Shadow Step
    Paladin Holy =/= Holy Shock, that will be a baseline spell.
    Warlock Demo, NOT felguard, maybe soul link.
    Blizz said they don't want locks running around with Felguards in level 10 if they havn't even learned voidwalker yet.
    Else, pretty good speculations.
  1. Skulver's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by evan_s View Post
    I think there is room for "interesting" talent choices that don't have to impact your dps/tanking/healing.

    I have a warlock as one of my alts and I could see choosing between Shadowfury, and Nether Protection as an interesting choice. Neither is going to directly increase my dps but both provide useful utility in both PvP and raids. I could also see things like IMP soul leach having their personal benefit separated from the raid buff by either just removing it or moving it into a separate talent. Do I take this useful but possibly redundant raid buff talent for 1 point or pick up one of the previously mentioned talents. These are interesting and meaningful choices that won't have a cookie cutter, this is the best dps option.

    With out having seen the talent tree's it's hard to condemn them as being either pointless or cookie cutter.
    Thats fine, but it is a subjective definition of interesting (which is the entire problem with this whole endeavour from the start). Blizzard seem to have gotten it into their heads that talents are only interesting if they change how an ability works. There is a whole seperate school of thought that it is interesting if it makes you more effective at what you want to do. The proliferation of cookie cutter specs would tend to suggest that the majority of WoWs player base are of the latter opinion.

    To use a simple analogy, Blizzard would think paddle gears on a car are interesting because they change how you shift gears. To a race driver they are only interesting if they allow you to drive faster, that they change the mechanism is irrelevent.
  1. Bynde's Avatar
    For those of you who fail at literacy, some copy-pasta

    How big are the new trees?
    They have 38-42 or so points in them. You could spend all 41 points in one tree, though often you'll want a 5/5/31 or a 0/7/34 build instead. Every talent is 1, 2 or 3 talent points. Earlier levels have about 8 points on them (typically a 2, 2, 3) and deeper levels have about 5 points on them (typically a 1, 2, 3).
    How anyone could have read that as "The new trees are only going to have 31 points in them so everyone will be the same" is beyond me.

    Also; I love this change, but that's only because I have at least a rudimentary level of reading comprehension (A clear advantage to the average internet hate machine)
  1. Blur4stuff's Avatar
    Can't wait to see more info on this. I don't think it will necessarily make leveling easier. It's already pretty damn easy. I think it will do more for making the leveling process more interesting and fun. Let's face it. You can kill mobs in a handful of seconds now and that won't really change even if you get a scaled down version of some high level ability.
  1. Bucky Mclachlan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bynde View Post
    For those of you who fail at literacy, some copy-pasta



    How anyone could have read that as "The new trees are only going to have 31 points in them so everyone will be the same" is beyond me.

    Also; I love this change, but that's only because I have at least a rudimentary level of reading comprehension (A clear advantage to the average internet hate machine)
    You misunderstand, the people QQing are saying that there will be virtually no difference between specs, and that's completely valid. All the things that every class and spec needs they're now getting for free. There's no point in being able to make choices when those choices won't really matter, and having a wiggle room to put 31 points however you want in a tree with only 42 points isn't much room for costumization at all.

    Lets hope the new glyph system will help put in more personal favor to our builds while this system is failing to do so on it's own.
  1. Kitoya's Avatar
    Why dont we just give everybody just all talents so we have nothing to worrie about.
  1. Bynde's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky Mclachlan View Post
    You misunderstand, the people QQing are saying that there will be virtually no difference between specs, and that's completely valid.
    How is that "completely valid"? Have you seen the new trees? The people QQing are doing so blind. Granted, the people praising the move are also doing so blind, but the overwhelming number of the QQ posts (I couldn't sleep last night and read all of them; some of which by the way did directly say that there was only 31 points, hence my post) are people who blatantly didn't read the content, or at very least didn't understand it. Any one of them could be countered by quoting the text they're so upset about, hence my illiteracy comment. I didn't say all people who are crying said there's only 31 points in the tree, but again; that comes back to reading comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky Mclachlan View Post
    All the things that every class and spec needs they're now getting for free. There's no point in being able to make choices when those choices won't really matter, and having a wiggle room to put 31 points however you want in a tree with only 42 points isn't much room for costumization at all.
    There will still be very attractive talents that probably everyone takes, but there are also definitely choices where you can only take A or B and want both. Typically you might see a useful (but not necessarily dps-enhancing) ability in your own tree, but also a really attractive one in another tree.

    This is a good thing. It won't surprise me to see a knee jerk reaction from some players that we're removing their favorite talents and "dumbing down the trees." However, I'd challenge them that there can't be that many players out there that play Arcane because of Mind Mastery or Arms warrior because of Strength of Arms. Yet, if you skip either of those talents, you're just making your character less effective.
  1. Ishmad's Avatar
    No.. No..
  1. Wolfshadow80's Avatar
    Dammit i was hoping the talents wud be liek they are set up on mmo right now that way i can get boomkin AND TREEFORM!! sadface, still a good idea tho, with less talent desicions it seems pvp will be more about skill! nvm itll be all BGs =(
  1. finchna's Avatar
    so how far away time-wise is the Cata release? they don't know what they're doing with feral druids? i guess i shouldn't expect anything different given how they've treated ferals in the past.
  1. Maewen's Avatar
    come on blizz

    show us new talent trees!
  1. cerbul's Avatar
    Is funny to see that actualy alot of ppl don't understand the fact that "new talent trees will make leveling easyer" actualy means that the 31 points unlock idea is there to make sure that actualy the first 2 tiers ONLY from all 3 talent trees are available to take whatever the spec you chose. This can make important talents like the 31 and 41 point talents, available earlyer in the leveling for the simple fact that no one can reach an 11 point talent from a tree if they spend most of their points in the other tree.
    This means that 11 points might be equivalent of level 21 in future, while ppl were able to take important talents at level 51 only..

    Let me give you an example as it is at the moment. Blizzard doesn't want the shockadin spec to be viable, therefore they don't allow us to take both holy shock and crusader strike at the same time. This is achieved by the fact that 31 points needed for holy shock + 41 points needed for crusader strike = 72. And since we have only 71 points available means we will never be able to get both.

    Now same goes for Cataclysm. Since we need 31 points spend in one tree to unlock the other tree, means that we will have 10 points available to spend wherever we want. And that allows for Blizzard to put powerfull talents starting from point 11 in talent trees, since they are not available for other specs to take anyway.

    So yes, I do think that this will be a good move from Blizzard in making classes more balanced. Also this has a great impact on allowing PVP being Balanced easyer, and not force the PVE talents in the trees being arranged based on pvp priorities. The changes they did actualy allow for a really free positioning of pve talents, and PVP talents won't stay in the way that much anymore.

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