MMO-Champion - WoWTal 12694, Reputation Enchantments, Blue Posts
Cataclysm Build 12694 - Talent Calculator
I didn't post the talent calculator on patch days because of a few issues caused by the new client (The annoying 0 values on most of the new spells). The problem is now resolved, feel free to use the Cataclysm Talent Calculator again.



Cataclysm Build 12694 - Reputation Enchantments
The latest beta build added the spells for reputation enchantments, nothing really super-interesting but I figured it would make a couple of theorycrafters happy.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Reputation Enchantments - Shoulders

Reputation Enchantments - Head

Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Concentration Aura
Someone else is getting Concentration Aura. Place your bets. (Source)

200% crits
Warlocks and mages get 200% crits.

We have talents or passives for the hybrid classes because we want the nukers to get the big crits but not the healers. But for mages and warlocks, it seemed silly to have identical passives that say "you get 200% crits" when we don't do that for all the melee classes who get 200% crits.

Incidentally, hunters also get 200% crits in Cataclysm. They already did for the most part on all of their physical attacks, but unless I'm mistaken, attacks like Arcane Shot could only get a 150% crits. That is fixed for Cataclysm. (Source)

Raid Buffs in Cataclysm
Nobody has more powerful versions. All raid buffs are identical in power in Cataclysm. Some have different durations or radii or other measurements of convenience. "I won't get brought because his buff is more powerful than mine," is a pretty reasonable argument. "I won't get brought because his buff is more convenient than mine," just doesn't carry the same punch.

Players are going to find themselves in situations all the time where they bring the same buff that someone else brings. Shaman and paladins are probably in the best situation of bring able to bring something no matter what else the group already has. But we still want for groups to be able to bring say two Fire mages, and in that case, their contributions are identical. (Source)

Failed specs
Yet, even though Enhance's dps was low, there were thousands of dps shaman raiding ICC. By far the majority of raids had at least one. The only specs we really failed on in LK raiding were Frost mage, Subtlety rogue, BM hunter and Arms warrior. (Source)

Hybrid Builds
We really haven't ever supported the true hybrid builds where someone goes halfway down two trees. It would be one thing if someone really wanted to play say an Affliction warlock who also emphasized demons or the Ret paladin who also wanted to be a better healer. But almost without exception the hybrid builds that have ever existed involved sneaking down into a second tree to get an overpowered talent or two. The developers never really wanted the last talent in a tree to be a decision. They want you to get that talent. When players would make builds that didn't go to the bottom of their tree they would feel like something was wrong with the tree. Nobody wants that 31-point talent to be a hard choice.

So, yeah, go get that 31-point talent. You'll have some decisions to make on the way down and then you'll have 10 points that can get you 3 or 4 additional talents from a pool of 15 or so that are left over. Not all of those builds will make sense, but many of them will. That feels like plenty of choice to me and both you and we will know that you have the basics that make your spec work. (Source)

Rogue (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)
Subtlety
We're going to make Dirty Tricks baseline.

We still think the mobility between Subtlety and the other trees is a little far apart. This is something we want to address.

We also think Subtlety's damage against heavy armored targets is probably a little low and we're looking at that as well.

However, as we said in the Twitter dev chat, if you had a tree with Assassination's burst or Combat's timers *and* Shadowstep and Prep, why would you play anything else in PvP? In PvE, we want to get all 3 rogue specs to be as close together as possible. But part of that involves Rupture and Honor Among Thieves, which are just more potent in PvE than PvP. In PvP, we think it's fair that Subtlety does less toe-to-toe damage given that the tree has so many advantages when not toe-to-toe. (Source)

Sprint cooldown
I will admit that the 3 min cooldown on Sprint feels a bit antiquated. It's something we're discussing but it's too soon to promise anything. (Source)

Shaman (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)
Totems not as useful as before?
This is a pretty common sentiment among shaman, but it's just not one we agree with. Elemental shaman having to give up their dps totem for a dps buff was a situation we weren't happy with. But Enhance giving up a dps buff for utility totems -- and very powerful utility totems -- isn't the same thing in our minds.

We don't want to have to balance the game around the assumption that Earthbind or Tremor Totem are up 100% of the time in a raid, which they would be if they also gave you the Strength of Earth buff. (For starters, we'd have to give equivalents to other classes since otherwise having a shaman would be a huge advantage.) Once you remove Tremor and Earthbind, (and disregarding Stoneclaw and Earth Elemental as super situational) then you're left with Strength of Earth vs. Stoneskin, and the powers of those two really aren't comparable. If you have one shaman, drop Strength of Earth. If you have two, or someone else who can bring that buff, then you can add Stoneskin. If you really need Earthbind or Tremor for an encounter, then you can live without Strength of Earth. Most of the time in PvE when you need those other two, it's not for the entirety of the fight anyway. (Source)

[...] If the model was that shaman were brought for their buffs then that would be a problem. But the model is that shaman are brought because they contribute to the group as a whole, which includes bringing some buffs (and to be fair, more than most classes) but also doing competitive dps. If your dps is too low, then *that* is the problem, not that you don't bring a powerful buff so awesome that you're virtually guaranteed a raid spot even if you go AFK half the time. (Source)

[...] And if you have a paladin, you probably have Devotion Aura, so then there is no reason to drop Stoneskin either. And if the group also has a warrior, then that warrior might Battle Shout, rendering Horn of Winter useless. You just aren't going to be guaranteed a raid slot because you bring the only reasonable version of a group buff. The good news is that nobody is. (Source)

Warrior (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)
Rage Normalization - Crits no longer generate extra rage
We actually are concerned that even with normalization that rage scales too well with gear. Currently on beta, rage generation feels about right at level 80, but the income drops down more and more with higher levels. Now we have no doubt once warriors get epic gear with tons of haste and crit that they will have plenty of rage again, but that's the problem that rage normalization was really intended to fix.

The solution we're looking at, and I predict a lot you aren't going to like it, is not to have crits provide extra rage. That will let us bump rage income across the board without it getting infinite again at the epic level. This actually provides a certain amount of consistency with other classes because then crit would be about bigger numbers and haste would be about being able to do more because you have more resources to work with.

We think to feel right that warriors (and bears) generally need enough rage income to hit their main rotational buttons, but not Heroic Strike or Cleave. You might occasionally have to wait a second for that Bloodthirst or Mortal Strike, but we don't want that to be a regular occurrence (unless you just squandered your rage by playing badly.) Getting a lot of rage, because say you were stunned or took a lot of damage from something or the shaman popped Bloodlust, then just lets you Heroic Strike or Cleave more, get bigger Executes, save GCDs from going to Bloodrage, etc.

But also to feel right, this needs to occur in both quest greens and fully-gemmed and enchanted endgame gear. We don't think that is happening enough yet on beta.

Rest assured, you'll still scale just fine with gear.

Hit rating and rage generation
We know Cataclysm warriors will value hit pretty highly, and to be honest that's not a bad place to be coming off of LK where warriors viewed hit as junk. Then again, part of that was because of the Heroic Strike bug, so maybe hit would have been more valuable even in LK.

We're also taking a hard look at combat ratings across the board right now in Cataclysm. We removed so many passive combat ratings from the talent trees (as well as things like Misery and the Draenei racial) that we're concerned that our current ratings are too brutal. If we relax those, then everyone will see their hit go up.

If after all that dust settles warriors still are penalized too much for a miss then we might consider something to address that, but only if we were confident that warriors would still desire hit on gear more than they did in LK. (Source)

Rage "nerf"
It's just tricky because we know that warriors used to the Icecrown raiding environment are going to feel rage nerfed almost no matter what. Some of those warriors are going to complain about being rage starved anytime they aren't hitting Heroic Strike on cooldown. We just have to be very cautious when we get feedback. It is 100% supposed to be a nerf, but only to the degree of having to pay attention to that red bar up there under your health. It isn't supposed to be a dps nerf (minus the Heroic Strike bug and Shadowmourne and other things that make Fury dps too high on live). (Source)

Warrior Scaling
Totally. A little more rage is fine. Cats get more combo points as their geat gets better. Mages get more mana. We're just worried that the Cataclysm numbers currently in beta will make warriors still scale too well with gear, which means the leveling warriors don't have fun or the warriors facing the Bastion of Twilight out-dps the other classes. (Source)
This article was originally published in forum thread: WoWTal 12694, Reputation Enchantments, Blue Posts started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 99 Comments
  1. smrund's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasz View Post
    Good fury warriors are on top of the DPS meters in BiS gear.

    *link*
    If by top you mean "barely", or "I only look at Blood Council fights", then yes. There are 4 fights on which Fury Warriors are top DPS(according to your logs), and on deathwhisper it's obvious because of all the great potentional for AOE cleaves/whirlwinds. The same is true if you tank all 3 BPC bosses near each other, or even just two of them. Outside of that we've got mages for three fights, and one for hunters and one for shammies. Taking the actual numbers into consideration, fury warriors only sit AT BEST 100dps higher than the class right below them, most of the charts indicate that they're within 5-10 dps of the class below them.

    These charts do not indicate that fury warriors are breaking the curve, maybe pushing it a little bit, but certainly not far-and above the BEST dps. The argument that "fury warriors are top DPS and that's bad" is stupid. What part of "fury" and "WARrior" doesn't suggest high DPS?
  1. Typhron's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by dotSeed View Post
    Are you implying Fury Warriors were not top raid DPS for the entirety of Vanilla raid content with +weapon skill? Wow, just wow.


    Then play a ret paladin and stop whining. Warriors are balanced around a certain level of rage generation. That's the whole reason they're underpowered in poor gear and overpowered in end-game gear. It's been that way since Vanilla. Finally they're actually going to try and fix it.

    Or you can whine that come 81 you can't mash buttons constantly and say how terrible it is.
    QFT. Sounds like a lot of Warriors just need to L2Warrior.
  1. rainCZ's Avatar
    I bet on shaman.
  1. Azalu's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    If by top you mean "barely", or "I only look at Blood Council fights", then yes. There are 4 fights on which Fury Warriors are top DPS(according to your logs), and on deathwhisper it's obvious because of all the great potentional for AOE cleaves/whirlwinds. The same is true if you tank all 3 BPC bosses near each other, or even just two of them. Outside of that we've got mages for three fights, and one for hunters and one for shammies. Taking the actual numbers into consideration, fury warriors only sit AT BEST 100dps higher than the class right below them, most of the charts indicate that they're within 5-10 dps of the class below them.
    Your post is confusing. Barely top of the DPS isn't top of the DPS?

    Fury warriors are only 100 DPS higher than 2nd on the list, that makes them not top of the DPS was the general jist I got from your post
  1. Rukari's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    What part of "fury" and "WARrior" doesn't suggest high DPS?
    I guess by that logic Destruction WARlock should be the highest dps.
  1. Bonham's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Hairballs View Post
    I think its total bullshit that we are losing the hybrid build!!! I love the fact that while farming or leveling my lock can have a fel guard out and still do alot of dmg. forcing me to go all demo just to get the fel guard is bullshit because a full demo build sucks and you cant raid with it and your dmg sucks overall. Guess Ill never play my lock again. Thanks blizzard for screwing something else up.
    Mr. Hairballs, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
  1. wildi's Avatar
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Hybrid Builds
    Hybrid Builds are fine, learn to balance.
  1. Snoogle's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Hairballs View Post
    I think its total bullshit that we are losing the hybrid build!!! I love the fact that while farming or leveling my lock can have a fel guard out and still do alot of dmg. forcing me to go all demo just to get the fel guard is bullshit because a full demo build sucks and you cant raid with it and your dmg sucks overall. Guess Ill never play my lock again. Thanks blizzard for screwing something else up.
    That's bullshit, demonology isn't that far behind.
  1. smrund's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukari View Post
    I guess by that logic Destruction WARlock should be the highest dps.
    I said "high" DPS, not "highest". When it comes to BiS gear, end-game content, all the DPS classes and specs should be close. Higher in certain situations, such as when there is a lot of AOE, lower in some, when there is only one target. Sometimes the warrior will be top, sometimes the mage will, sometimes the pally will. None of them should be the top DPS ALL the time. The way Blizz keeps talking about warriors is like somehow they're NOT supposed to be high DPSers, that they're never supposed to top the charts, even when doing what they're best at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azalu View Post
    Your post is confusing. Barely top of the DPS isn't top of the DPS?

    Fury warriors are only 100 DPS higher than 2nd on the list, that makes them not top of the DPS was the general jist I got from your post
    If you are really going to tell me that when average DPS on those charts is sitting around 15k, that 50-100 dps makes a class so insanely OP that it needs a nerf, then you have failed to understand my point. I'm talking about variances, if the average DPS is 15k, with spike being around 20k and low being around 8, then a Fury Warrior doing 15,155 puts them well within the variance. If warriors were on average doing 2-3k more damage, then yes, they would be massively out of of balance with the rest of the classes.

    Managing Fury rage more means attacking less, attacking less means less DPS. Unless "normalizing" rage generation is so amazingly perfected that a warrior is able to generate enough rage to fight, not quite enough rage to do everything, and more than enough to do nothing, which from all Blizz says, it doesnt, then what the end result will be is that warriors will dps less. And that means nobody will want them around, and people who aren't wanted won't play.

    If Blizzard wanted to fine-tune warriors, then it would be a matter of adjusting the damage that attacks do. Perhaps even altering the equation to include diminishing returns on how much benefit each special attack you do gets from your attack power. But Blizzard doesn't want to "fine tune" warriors, it wants to smash their faces into the dirt and then spit on them.
  1. Kyocere's Avatar
    Another day, another big Warrior post. Somebody just lemme know when the xpac is out so I don't have to waste time reading about Warriors.
  1. Noomz's Avatar
    I'm wondering why anyone would want to bring a shaman now. What's the point of a shaman?
  1. JonTargaryen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasz View Post
    Healers don't get penalised because they have a DPS spec, neither do tanks ... so why the hell should DPS?
    Penalised with respect to what? All healers and tanks have DPS specs. There aren't any pure Tank or pure Healer classes that you can compare hybrids to and say they're penalised.
  1. Alayea's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by rainCZ View Post
    I bet on shaman.
    I have no idea which class will (possibly) be gaining Concentration Aura in Cataclysm, but I really hope it's not my main's...
  1. Sollace's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    If by top you mean "barely", or "I only look at Blood Council fights", then yes. There are 4 fights on which Fury Warriors are top DPS(according to your logs), and on deathwhisper it's obvious because of all the great potentional for AOE cleaves/whirlwinds. The same is true if you tank all 3 BPC bosses near each other, or even just two of them. Outside of that we've got mages for three fights, and one for hunters and one for shammies. Taking the actual numbers into consideration, fury warriors only sit AT BEST 100dps higher than the class right below them, most of the charts indicate that they're within 5-10 dps of the class below them.

    These charts do not indicate that fury warriors are breaking the curve, maybe pushing it a little bit, but certainly not far-and above the BEST dps. The argument that "fury warriors are top DPS and that's bad" is stupid. What part of "fury" and "WARrior" doesn't suggest high DPS?
    Seriously? Look at 25 heroic Icc. Almost every single fight is either all fury warriors or all mages. Look where the dks are? I see more enhance shamans than dks there. Warriors are more than fine.
  1. Bobrek's Avatar
    I can understand blizzard saying that BM hunters etc are failed specs, however I found that being a BM hunter in pve gave me a lot of advantages on certain fights, especially ones that required a lot of movement such as the blood princes or deathwhisper. It also helped to be able to break out of vile gas on festergut (or whatever it's called, the stuff that makes you puke) My pet was always doing damage while I moved into position, kiting or being CC'd. Gearing that spec was difficult because I had to try and avoid haste gear and avoid agi in favour or AP or Arm Pen which is hard, but I was pushing over 10k dps back when the ICC buff was only 15% with roughly 5.7k gearscore. Not the bestest ever, but far from fail.

    The majority of players play their spec because it's been mathematically the best, but some of us just play a spec because that's what we enjoy; and provided we're not useless to a raid we're happy enough to lose 1k dps. I consider myself a hardcore player, but I would never have given up my BM spec for anyone. I just love having a huge red t-rex

    EDIT: Before people start rushing to call me a nub and banging on about trash dps, I have recount set to only collect data from boss fights.
  1. 1sickpuppy's Avatar
    Concentration Aura on another class? Priests, they are two specs of healing and would greatly benefit from it when Paladins aren't around.
  1. anaalius's Avatar
    wtb red skin orc !
  1. Girlyman's Avatar
    http://www.sonsofthestorm.com
    Was updated BTW.
  1. smrund's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sollace View Post
    Seriously? Look at 25 heroic Icc. Almost every single fight is either all fury warriors or all mages. Look where the dks are? I see more enhance shamans than dks there. Warriors are more than fine.
    Alright, so you support a mage nerf then too? Deathbringer, PP, BQ and about 50/50 split on LK is all mages.

    In most single-target cases, fury or mages outpace each other by around 500dps. Instead of slapping these classes down, why not improve the output of other classes?
  1. FireryRage's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Managing Fury rage more means attacking less, attacking less means less DPS. Unless "normalizing" rage generation is so amazingly perfected that a warrior is able to generate enough rage to fight, not quite enough rage to do everything, and more than enough to do nothing, which from all Blizz says, it doesnt, then what the end result will be is that warriors will dps less. And that means nobody will want them around, and people who aren't wanted won't play.

    If Blizzard wanted to fine-tune warriors, then it would be a matter of adjusting the damage that attacks do. Perhaps even altering the equation to include diminishing returns on how much benefit each special attack you do gets from your attack power. But Blizzard doesn't want to "fine tune" warriors, it wants to smash their faces into the dirt and then spit on them.
    You realize you just pointed out how not having full rage will be solved...
    So they normalize rage. Meaning you don't see so much discrepancy between low gear rage gen and high gear rage gen, and generally forcing you to manage rage instead of generally ignoring it.
    Your argument is this will result in less attacks, thus less dps.
    Yet you just followed up your argument pointing out blizz could change the damage of abilities.
    See what you just did there?
    Less attacks, ok. How do we solve this insurmountable issue of there being less attacks yet maintaining decent dps? Make the attacks hit harder. Done.
    Seriously, if any one dps class is consistently lagging in dps, all they have to do is tweak those specialization bonuses. Remember those, the +8% damage ones you get? Yeah. Your class doing 5% less damage in general than others? All they have to do is bump up that specialization bonus by 5% or so. Problem solved.

    Seriously, it bugs me when people make arguments, and then completely counter their own arguments with another one, all while pretending both are supporting each other.

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