MMO-Champion - Flexible Raid Lock System in 4.0.1
Flexible Raid Lock System in 4.0.1
Originally Posted by Bashiok (Blue Tracker)
Almost six months ago we announced that Cataclysm raids were being redesigned to make both raid sizes the same difficulty, drop the same quality of loot, and exist in the same lockout. This evolution in raid philosophy is built on the belief that the size of your raiding group should be a choice based solely on what's more fun and enjoyable for you, and that you should not have to complete the same raiding content twice in a week to maximize your character's progression. These systems are the culmination of a great deal of design and player feedback from the last few years. With the release of the 4.0.1 patch, the new Flexible Raid Lock system will debut in Icecrown Citadel and The Ruby Sanctum.

With the Flexible Raid Lock system, instead of being locked to a specific raid size or raid group, each character will have the opportunity to defeat each raid encounter once a week. You could kill Lord Marrowgar and Lady Deathwhisper with a 10-player raid on Wednesday, join a 25-player raid to kill Festergut and Rotface on Thursday, and then lead a completely new 10-player raid to kill The Lich King on Friday. Every raid has a list of encounters associated with the zone. For example, Icecrown Citadel has twelve encounters. After you defeat Lord Marrowgar, you can open up your character's raid information dialog and see the list of encounters in Icecrown Citadel with Marrowgar marked as defeated. You may no longer fight Lord Marrowgar with any raid size or difficulty until the weekly raid reset for your region occurs.

Another key change is that if you join someone else's raid in progress, you are no longer locked to that raid after merely zoning in. Your raid status will only change when a boss is defeated, at which point it will be updated to reflect the state of the instance in which you are currently participating. So, let's say you have killed the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel, and you then join a raid that has defeated the first four encounters, as well as Festergut and Rotface. The dialog that displays upon entering Icecrown Citadel will show that the raid has defeated 6 of 12 encounters. If you help them defeat Professor Putricide, then you would be marked as having defeated not only Professor Putricide for the week, but also Festergut and Rotface. If instead after joining the raid you then proceeded to wipe ten times to Professor Putricide, you could leave the raid with only the first four bosses marked as completed.

To help communicate to players which bosses are dead in the raid leader's raid, there is new functionality to link in chat a list of the encounters the raid has defeated. So before you join a raid, you can see what they've already defeated. If a raid leader advertises in chat that she needs another healer for an 8/12 Icecrown Citadel run, you can see precisely which bosses are still available to fight. If you were only looking for that one item from Queen Lana'thel that never drops for you and this raid already defeated her, you will know not to join that raid.

Let's look at another example of the Flexible Raid Lock system. A guild schedules three nights for 25-player Icecrown Citadel raiding on Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday. On Wednesday, the raid defeats Lord Marrowgar, Lady Deathwhisper, Icecrown Gunship Battle, and Saurfang. On Thursday, five people cancel their raid attendance due to real life emergencies. The raid leader knows that if he cancels Thursday raiding, there's little chance they'll have enough time on Saturday to defeat the other eight bosses in Icecrown Citadel. So he splits the remaining 20 Thursday raiders into two 10-player raids. Each new raid enters Icecrown Citadel and defeats Rotface, Festergut, Blood Council, and Valithria Dreamwalker. The next Saturday with all 25 players online, they reform as a 25-player raid and enter Icecrown Citadel once more. Only Professor Putricide, Queen Lana'thel, Sindragosa, and The Lich King remain. After a tough fight, the Lich King falls and everybody celebrates. Without the Flexible Raid Lock system the entire raid probably would have missed out on a night of raiding, and likely would not have reached the Lich King.

While players can freely move between raids of different sizes in normal difficulty, there are some additional rules for Heroic difficulty. If a 10- or 25-player raid defeats a boss on Heroic difficulty, then those players may now only raid additional Heroic encounters with that specific raid. If your Heroic 25-player raid defeats the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel on Heroic, then they may not split up into two 10-player raids and continue to fight in Heroic difficulty. You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter.

But let's say you are a member of a Heroic raid in Icecrown Citadel, and after killing Lord Marrowgar on Heroic you have Internet connection issues that prevent you from raiding for two nights. During those two nights, the rest of the raid kills everything. Without the Flexible Raid Lock system, you would be done with raiding Icecrown Citadel for the week. Ouch. With the Flexible Raid Lock system, you can join someone else's raid as long as they are doing Normal difficulty. This would at least give you the opportunity to earn your Justice Points for the week. If this raid attempted to switch to Heroic difficulty for Icecrown Gunship Battle with you in the raid, the raid leader would receive an error message stating that she cannot change to Heroic, because someone in the raid (i.e., you) is already locked to a different Heroic instance.

All of the new Cataclysm raids will feature the Flexible Raid Lock and Dynamic Difficulty systems, and when the Cataclysm occurs the other Wrath of the Lich King raids will also have these features. It's important to note that this system doesn't affect Heroic dungeons, they will work as they always have. We look forward to feedback for this new system after 4.0.1 is released. As a reminder, Icecrown Citadel and The Ruby Sanctum are the only two raids that support the Flexible Raid Lock until the Cataclysm occurs.

Update
One piece of clarification on questions being asked so far, although we're still compiling feedback and will work to answer some of the questions and clear up any confusion we can.

The loot system in Icecrown and Ruby Sanctum is not changing. This implementation of the new flex raid lock is only that, a new implementation of the raid lockout system we'll be using in Cataclysm. This does not change the separation of 10 and 25 in ICC, and does not change the item drops or achievements.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Flexible Raid Lock System in 4.0.1 started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 365 Comments
  1. Pernicies's Avatar
    Lol.. doesn't kill achievements? how do you want to do 10 man achievements if the whole guild has an "id" from 25 and the other way round?

    this sucks.
  1. Rushgarroth's Avatar
    wtf... that just sucks somehow -.-
  1. Anatar's Avatar
    The player how like to do pugs will love this... the raider who like to do 10 and 25 men in the same week are done ... sad sad this is a way down.

    To not allow player to do both 10 and 25 men is a really bad decision!! Let me play like i want and don´t prevent me from doing so!!!

    Flexible raid lock fine but keep 10 and 25 separate!!!!
  1. Cymorìl's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rezman View Post
    Again this change is for the worse. My example:

    Our guild has a weekly 25man ICC. Several of the members have been working on their 10man drake achievements over the past 2-3 weeks. Because of this change they will 1) Have to abandon their 10man drake runs and wait till after Cata is out OR 2) drop out of the guild 25man which we are struggling with low attendance as it is already.

    I agree...
  1. lookerr's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    The amount of QQ about the 1 lockout per instance geez, you guys are aware you can level alts, right? Level another of the same toon you are, play one in 10, onr in 25.. problem solved.
    well thats a brilliant idea.... NOT - again, people have clarified and explained that with Cata and the loot tables being the same, fine, no problem - but with the remaining 2-3-4 months left for ICC, you are now being forced into running either 10 or 25, normal or heroic as you cant do both on the same toon, and I agree - it sucks - love it for Cata, hate it for ICC
  1. Puro's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiro View Post
    25 players upset that they won't have better gear than better players only doing 10-man
    Logic flawed, doing larger raids does not mean they are less skilled than the 10man players, get your facts straight and stop saying dumb stuff.
    PS: "better players" would do 25man, "better players" like to have full gear, "better players" don't slack in 10man casual guilds.
  1. SparkofImagination's Avatar
    If anything this is going to make it worse for pugs, since they can only beat said boss and not be completely saved to it, a lot of players will fake afk/line dead without worrying of being only saved to that instance, waste of time imo. Not that I care, I dont pug, just saying.
  1. Anatar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Puro View Post
    Logic flawed, doing larger raids does not mean they are less skilled than the 10man players, get your facts straight and stop saying dumb stuff.
    PS: "better players" would do 25man, "better players" like to have full gear, "better players" don't slack in 10man casual guilds.
    true true true ...
  1. Badma's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Skullcrack View Post
    If it takes such a wall of text to explain this system and it's still not clear how it works, it might be a good idea to go back to the drawing board and come up with a better system.
    Not really. The Blizzard post and the replies following it simply prove (yet again) that the average person playing WoW and using these forums is an idiot. At least 90% of the questions people asked about the new system are answered in the original post. I wonder how some people survive in the world when just a handful of paragraphs becomes "tl;dr" for them. Can you people read a newspaper? How about an instruction manual, book or magazine article? I gather from some of these responses that unless information comes in pictogram form you'll never be able to comprehend it. You're going to make someone rich someday.

    Quoting the original text here: "While players can freely move between raids of different sizes in normal difficulty, there are some additional rules for Heroic difficulty. If a 10- or 25-player raid defeats a boss on Heroic difficulty, then those players may now only raid additional Heroic encounters with that specific raid. If your Heroic 25-player raid defeats the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel on Heroic, then they may not split up into two 10-player raids and continue to fight in Heroic difficulty. You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter.

    But let's say you are a member of a Heroic raid in Icecrown Citadel, and after killing Lord Marrowgar on Heroic you have Internet connection issues that prevent you from raiding for two nights. During those two nights, the rest of the raid kills everything. Without the Flexible Raid Lock system, you would be done with raiding Icecrown Citadel for the week. Ouch. With the Flexible Raid Lock system, you can join someone else's raid as long as they are doing Normal difficulty. This would at least give you the opportunity to earn your Justice Points for the week. If this raid attempted to switch to Heroic difficulty for Icecrown Gunship Battle with you in the raid, the raid leader would receive an error message stating that she cannot change to Heroic, because someone in the raid (i.e., you) is already locked to a different Heroic instance."


    OT, I am sure there are many guilds out there currently who can only do partial ICC25 hard modes but are able to clear more ICC10 HMs with their most capable 10 players. Now they won't be able to. Instead of running both 25m and 10m instances on the same toon in a given week, they'll be "forced" to play two mains; a 10 man main and a different 25 man main. I suspect many guilds will split becoming distinctly "10 man" or "25 man" guilds with less middle ground. And I predict there's going to be 1001 different 10 man guilds on most servers. On the bright side for some, hard modes will be that much more exclusive so the hard mode raiders will have more to justify their e-peen stroking. I'd still like to hear Blizz's thinking behind the decision to restrict hard mode flexibility though. That choice more than anything will be the death of 25 man raiding.
  1. Eviscerate's Avatar
    Nothing has really changed.

    If you are 2/12 in 10 man and joined an 8/12 in 10 or 25 man, you would still be saved after defeating the 9th boss. You still cannot defeat the bosses you skipped for you will be locked to it as well. It's not like each boss have their own lockouts, right? I think most people here doesn't know how to read or don't have any reading comprehension ability.

    The only thing that changed here is that
    a) You won't get saved just by zoning in.
    b) You can continue your progress by alternating 10 and 25 man runs.
    c) You can still run Normal after being saved to a Heroic run.
    d) You can join someone else's run as long as you are on the same boss or higher.

    That's it. Stop complicating things noobs.

    Nothing has really changed here, aside from the changes they made for cata (Both raid sizes have same lockouts, same loots, etc)
  1. araine's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by furydeath View Post
    So wait two different raids both with different loot but you can only do one. How is that Flexible?
    Dont like that petition them to add dble the loot tables so your 10man drops the 10 man loot and the 25 man loot at the same time.

    Overall this is a very very good change. and who cares if it isnt perfect for 1 year old outdated content anyway? it is to get it tested before cata raids are in and this is a golden time for it since the content is outdated and old and farmed ad nauseam.
  1. Tang's Avatar
    What's not clear to me is what happens if you attempt an encounter that you've already completed. How does that work? Do your abilities lock up while the boss is engaged? Are you ported out of the zone?
  1. chuck123's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by antifreeze View Post
    bb my spot in raid, and think bb my guild. Now the friends from guild will be playing 10 men only and good players but not real life friends of guild leader will be left behind.
    if you are good you wont be left out
  1. Tang's Avatar
    Disregard
  1. Wizball's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    The way to fix this is to indeed allow a player to do a boss more times a week without it having drop loot for you, if, and only if, the group leader's raid you joined does not have the same raid ID as yours (even if that actual ID becomes invisible to players), and if there are no more than 3 out of 10 players or 7 out of 25 players (random numbers are completely random) in that same group with the same raid ID as yours. In this case your raid log would still say, for example, "Saurfang killed", even though the pug you just joined is still at gunship. You'd do gunship and saurfang again but receive no loot or points from it, but then be able to proceed to fester with that pug.
    Quite too complicated - people have difficulty grasping the new concept right now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    That said, guilds have always sold spots and they will continue to do so. Do you honestly think good guilds right now are still after the loot? Of course not, they're taking advantage of the current status of WOW and the possible hibernating status of their guild and just selling spots (and thus heroic loot). I know on my old server, when WOTLK was released, our server's top guild was selling undying runs and the like, too.
    The difference is that with the suggestion I replied to, guilds would be able to farm and sell spots on the first week of new content. Downed a new boss? Quickly, send someone to /trade and sell some progress! Not to mention, it would allow practice on bosses that are not on farm. One of the goals with this change is to reduce the risk that players burn out - imagine guild leaders forcing members to practice endlessly on bosses 30-40 times a week, until success rate is 100%...
  1. Kyvanex's Avatar
    It's about damn time. Missing guild raids and getting saved to the first boss of a fail raid is probably the most annoying thing ever.
  1. Thruster's Avatar
    "You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter."


    ...What? So using the ICC example, if you have a 25m Heroic kill on Marrowgar, and one person DC's afterwards, you're stucking doing the entire rest of the instance heroic with only 24 people...unless you choose to do normals instead? YES THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE.
  1. olaf2k4's Avatar
    piece of crap of a change ... i was really hoping that most of the crap would come with cata and leave lk as bad as we got used to, not salt the wound ...
  1. SparkofImagination's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyvanex View Post
    It's about damn time. Missing guild raids and getting saved to the first boss of a fail raid is probably the most annoying thing ever.
    You are right about that, but with this system is gonna bring new problems, more players ninja logging.
  1. assilley's Avatar
    Had to skip through a few things, but im guessing that people still farming SM still have to do 25 man content to get their shards. I guess this will suck when you only run 25s for the shards and want to do 10man for drake achievements as well

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