MMO-Champion - Flexible Raid Lock System in 4.0.1
Flexible Raid Lock System in 4.0.1
Originally Posted by Bashiok (Blue Tracker)
Almost six months ago we announced that Cataclysm raids were being redesigned to make both raid sizes the same difficulty, drop the same quality of loot, and exist in the same lockout. This evolution in raid philosophy is built on the belief that the size of your raiding group should be a choice based solely on what's more fun and enjoyable for you, and that you should not have to complete the same raiding content twice in a week to maximize your character's progression. These systems are the culmination of a great deal of design and player feedback from the last few years. With the release of the 4.0.1 patch, the new Flexible Raid Lock system will debut in Icecrown Citadel and The Ruby Sanctum.

With the Flexible Raid Lock system, instead of being locked to a specific raid size or raid group, each character will have the opportunity to defeat each raid encounter once a week. You could kill Lord Marrowgar and Lady Deathwhisper with a 10-player raid on Wednesday, join a 25-player raid to kill Festergut and Rotface on Thursday, and then lead a completely new 10-player raid to kill The Lich King on Friday. Every raid has a list of encounters associated with the zone. For example, Icecrown Citadel has twelve encounters. After you defeat Lord Marrowgar, you can open up your character's raid information dialog and see the list of encounters in Icecrown Citadel with Marrowgar marked as defeated. You may no longer fight Lord Marrowgar with any raid size or difficulty until the weekly raid reset for your region occurs.

Another key change is that if you join someone else's raid in progress, you are no longer locked to that raid after merely zoning in. Your raid status will only change when a boss is defeated, at which point it will be updated to reflect the state of the instance in which you are currently participating. So, let's say you have killed the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel, and you then join a raid that has defeated the first four encounters, as well as Festergut and Rotface. The dialog that displays upon entering Icecrown Citadel will show that the raid has defeated 6 of 12 encounters. If you help them defeat Professor Putricide, then you would be marked as having defeated not only Professor Putricide for the week, but also Festergut and Rotface. If instead after joining the raid you then proceeded to wipe ten times to Professor Putricide, you could leave the raid with only the first four bosses marked as completed.

To help communicate to players which bosses are dead in the raid leader's raid, there is new functionality to link in chat a list of the encounters the raid has defeated. So before you join a raid, you can see what they've already defeated. If a raid leader advertises in chat that she needs another healer for an 8/12 Icecrown Citadel run, you can see precisely which bosses are still available to fight. If you were only looking for that one item from Queen Lana'thel that never drops for you and this raid already defeated her, you will know not to join that raid.

Let's look at another example of the Flexible Raid Lock system. A guild schedules three nights for 25-player Icecrown Citadel raiding on Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday. On Wednesday, the raid defeats Lord Marrowgar, Lady Deathwhisper, Icecrown Gunship Battle, and Saurfang. On Thursday, five people cancel their raid attendance due to real life emergencies. The raid leader knows that if he cancels Thursday raiding, there's little chance they'll have enough time on Saturday to defeat the other eight bosses in Icecrown Citadel. So he splits the remaining 20 Thursday raiders into two 10-player raids. Each new raid enters Icecrown Citadel and defeats Rotface, Festergut, Blood Council, and Valithria Dreamwalker. The next Saturday with all 25 players online, they reform as a 25-player raid and enter Icecrown Citadel once more. Only Professor Putricide, Queen Lana'thel, Sindragosa, and The Lich King remain. After a tough fight, the Lich King falls and everybody celebrates. Without the Flexible Raid Lock system the entire raid probably would have missed out on a night of raiding, and likely would not have reached the Lich King.

While players can freely move between raids of different sizes in normal difficulty, there are some additional rules for Heroic difficulty. If a 10- or 25-player raid defeats a boss on Heroic difficulty, then those players may now only raid additional Heroic encounters with that specific raid. If your Heroic 25-player raid defeats the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel on Heroic, then they may not split up into two 10-player raids and continue to fight in Heroic difficulty. You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter.

But let's say you are a member of a Heroic raid in Icecrown Citadel, and after killing Lord Marrowgar on Heroic you have Internet connection issues that prevent you from raiding for two nights. During those two nights, the rest of the raid kills everything. Without the Flexible Raid Lock system, you would be done with raiding Icecrown Citadel for the week. Ouch. With the Flexible Raid Lock system, you can join someone else's raid as long as they are doing Normal difficulty. This would at least give you the opportunity to earn your Justice Points for the week. If this raid attempted to switch to Heroic difficulty for Icecrown Gunship Battle with you in the raid, the raid leader would receive an error message stating that she cannot change to Heroic, because someone in the raid (i.e., you) is already locked to a different Heroic instance.

All of the new Cataclysm raids will feature the Flexible Raid Lock and Dynamic Difficulty systems, and when the Cataclysm occurs the other Wrath of the Lich King raids will also have these features. It's important to note that this system doesn't affect Heroic dungeons, they will work as they always have. We look forward to feedback for this new system after 4.0.1 is released. As a reminder, Icecrown Citadel and The Ruby Sanctum are the only two raids that support the Flexible Raid Lock until the Cataclysm occurs.

Update
One piece of clarification on questions being asked so far, although we're still compiling feedback and will work to answer some of the questions and clear up any confusion we can.

The loot system in Icecrown and Ruby Sanctum is not changing. This implementation of the new flex raid lock is only that, a new implementation of the raid lockout system we'll be using in Cataclysm. This does not change the separation of 10 and 25 in ICC, and does not change the item drops or achievements.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Flexible Raid Lock System in 4.0.1 started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 365 Comments
  1. Kyndig's Avatar
    Well this sucks!
  1. Tziva's Avatar
    I would like to know how this impacts extensions.

    Hypothetical:

    A raid is working on HM25 Sindragosa, and is extending each lockout to get more time on her. They run Fridays. On Wednesday, a handful of raid members run a 10man on regular and do not kill Sindragosa. The raid leader himself does not run any raids before Friday, and extends his prior 10/12 hard mode ID. Those ten members could still join the extended raid, right? But if they did any hard modes on their 10, or if they killed Sindragosa, they could not?
  1. Cymorìl's Avatar
    This sucks...

    In this way if I want to raid in ICC 10 to get Glory Of The Icecrown Raider 10m achiev, for example, I can't go on 25 man raid with the rest of the guild... Did I miss something?
  1. Herecius's Avatar
    Holy shit, I love you Blizzard. This is flawless. For people who only do normal modes and pugs, raiding gets simplified and totally possible without a guild, and for those who prefer the hardcore setting of being married to a heroic raid, then they are locked into that and can't split it up into other raids.

    This is fantastic. The perfect solution to a problem that didn't seem to have a solution.
  1. thatguy181's Avatar
    Seems like a waste of time and effort making the system work with WotLK raids if the raids continue to have different loot tables.
  1. Tokru's Avatar
    this part is just fail:

    "If your Heroic 25-player raid defeats the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel on Heroic, then they may not split up into two 10-player raids and continue to fight in Heroic difficulty."


    why does it work on normal and not heroic?
  1. Zerbe's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokru View Post
    this part is just fail:

    "If your Heroic 25-player raid defeats the first four bosses of Icecrown Citadel on Heroic, then they may not split up into two 10-player raids and continue to fight in Heroic difficulty."


    why does it work on normal and not heroic?
    Once you a do heroic, you're then locked to doing heroics in that raid size.
  1. Racetrack's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Artemsadictos View Post
    Interesting.

    For pugs this is double-sided sword.
    Either it can do good, or it can harm.

    i bet they`ll tune it down/up
    Harm i imagine. People kill the first boss. Wipe a couple of times on the second boss. Now instead of them committing to stay or they would be locked for the entire week, they'll just leave and find another group with 1 boss down.
  1. Naylol's Avatar
    Why this flexible raidlockout system will suck:

    Scenario 1: A pug player joins a raid that fails after 2 bosses, the player now has to join a raid that has killed at least 2. Now how often does that happen?

    Scenario 2: A guilded raider joins a pug because he missed the first raid of the week with his guild, he leaves the raid as soon as the pug killed the bosses that his guild did.

    So the only people that benefit from it are raids that lose players and can now take people that did the first few bosses of a raid. Woopidoo.
  1. Tokru's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapria View Post
    Once you a do heroic, you're then locked to doing heroics in that raid size.

    and why only on hardmode? the usual normal mode scum is free to change their size per boss....
  1. sidebar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I would like to know how this impacts extensions.

    Hypothetical:

    A raid is working on HM25 Sindragosa, and is extending each lockout... a handful of raid members run a 10man on regular and do not kill Sindragosa. The raid leader himself does not run any raids before Friday, and extends his prior 10/12 hard mode ID. Those ten members could still join the extended raid, right? But if they did any hard modes on their 10, or if they killed Sindragosa, they could not?
    Not sure how the "extensions" work, but if you take that part out, I believe the answer is: Yes.

    ie:
    Raid A does Icc10 10/12 on normal.
    Raid B does Icc25 10/12 on heroic.

    Raid A can join Raid B, regardless.
    Raid B can join Raid A, and do the last 2 bosses on normal.

    That is how I am reading it.

    I am guessing that Extended ID's will *forget* who was originally in them and just resolve for "can this person join based upon this weeks ID's?" and will allow your scenario to work. Just guessing on the extended though, it's really not been made clear yet.
  1. blackangel209's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Here's the big question they didn't address:

    Are they normalizing loot as well? It would only make sense considering they are locking you to both 10 and 25? It almost eliminates the desire to go to pug 10s if a persons only chance at marks is in 25 man
    They didn't address this here because it was addressed months ago. 10M and 25M loot will be the same. H10M and H25M will be the same.
  1. Dvaldin's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by draticus View Post
    I wish I worked at Bliz. The simple version of this would be "Each player can only loot each boss once per week regardless of raid size or difficulty." That is the solution I've been suggesting since day 1. This would allow people to raid with whatever friends they want, whenever they want. And never HAVE to raid more than once for the sake of min/maxing progression. They're half way there. Maybe someday they'll figure it out.
    min/maxing will still occur on alts
  1. Scripts's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by sidebar View Post
    Actually, I think you could turn on Heroic at that point, based upon what was posted. You join a group with 24 other people that have not downed a boss on heroic, you, as the newly appointed RL and keeper of the sacred heroic raid ID should be able to turn Heroic bosses on / off from that point forward as long as nobody else has a heroic boss id for that run.

    Right? at least that is how I read it. You just can't *mix* heroic boss id's. I am starting to think of it as an STD in that you can share your STD with others that don't have an STD yet, you just can't share yours with others that have their own STD :-)
    But the ID is created when the first boss is downed, so you weren't there for the creation of the "Second" ID. The RL has the ID created from the regular Marrowgar kill, and you are tagged to an id with a heroic marrowgar kill, so your heroic id trumps any other IDs you join. If your heroic ID and your RL's ID doesn't match up, then no heroic modes for the group you joined. It almost seems like there's 1 comparision points in the background for heroic modes, and a secondary comparision point for bosses.

    IE:

    Heroics: Same Raid ID as Leader Y/N -> If Y, Heroic enabled, If N, no heroics modes possible

    Bosses Dead: Do you have More or Less of the bosses dead than the RL? -> Less, you can join, More, you can't join. Make All Players' Raid Bosses Dead flags = after next boss kill (IE: The You've killed first 4 bosses, Pug has killed 6, You help pug kill PP, you've now killed 7 bosses because now your "bosses killed" flag matches the RL's flag, without fighting Rot/Fester yourself example in the blue posts)
  1. Jokerjesus's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranor View Post
    tl;dr - R.I.P. 10man raiding unless all you do is do 10mans or alt runs.
    More like RIP 25 man, I hate raiding with 25 people half of them are always idiots, 10 man is where its at. So you get more gear as a whole with 25 big deal? Id rather not get my piece and actually finish the dungeon than have a wipefest with retards.
  1. lookerr's Avatar
    I looked forward to this change in Cata, but it screws things up for ICC and RS currently since you cant run 10 and 25 on the same toon the same week the way ppl currently do
  1. sidebar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Naylol View Post
    Why this flexible raidlockout system will suck:

    Scenario 1: A pug player joins a raid that fails after 2 bosses, the player now has to join a raid that has killed at least 2. Now how often does that happen?
    Quit a bit actually and it will go up. Take 4/12 runs. Lot of runs die when X number of people bail after DBW doesn't drop. You can now take two 4/12 groups and make one 4/12 from the remnants ... and btw, that 2/12 from your example decides to get in on the 4/12 and skip those 2 bosses.

    Scenario 2: A guilded raider joins a pug because he missed the first raid of the week with his guild, he leaves the raid as soon as the pug killed the bosses that his guild did.
    So you replace that one guy ... what's the big deal? Your pool of players that *can* fill will be larger and the pool of players that *will* fill in will be larger.

    So the only people that benefit from it are raids that lose players and can now take people that did the first few bosses of a raid. Woopidoo.
    Sorta ... if your runs *never* lose people (DC, Emergency, birthday, etc) then this will *never* benefit you. But, with the new changes more players will be more willing (and able) to actually join raids in progress and that is a good think all around.
  1. deviancee's Avatar
    You may also not join someone else's raid if they have defeated a Heroic encounter.
    SO if im raiding 10 man and 1 person dcs then i can not take anyone to have full 10 man raid again ?
  1. Ery's Avatar
    I dont get it.. what happens If I have killed all bosses except for the first boss and I join a raid where they are doing all bosses..
    Will i be kicked when they go at boss 2?
    Or can i stay and help but not loot?

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