US Maintenance
Originally Posted by Laetzin (Blue Tracker)
Due to unforeseen circumstances, we are extending the maintenance for all realms until 1PM PDT.

Thank you for your patience.

Is Patch 4.0.1 Today?
Probably not, really.


Cataclysm Raid Testing Soon!
Originally Posted by Valnoth (Blue Tracker)
We've been testing raids extensively in-house for months. Beta raid testing will begin very soon. Stay tuned.

And yes, there will be new character templates available and there will be a reset to character copy limit.

[...] Daelo and/or a CM will post a schedule when we are ready.

Guild Member Caps for Cataclysm
Originally Posted by Mumper (Blue Tracker)
We will be introducing a new, hard cap of 600 members in a single guild for Cataclysm. This function will go live with patch 4.0.1 and is already live on the beta and PTR's.

As most of you already know, we have supported a soft cap of 500 members in a guild since World of Warcraft launched. We have allowed guilds to exceed the 500 limit up until now since being in a guild really just amounted to ranks and chat channels. With the advent of the new guild system in Cataclysm we are tracking many more things on each individual player in a guild and in order to support that, we need to limit the amount of members to a reasonable level.

The new cap of 600 members is fully supported in the new guild system and that means that everyone will be visible in the ui and able to contribute to all guild functions like experience and reputation gain. We have pulled a large number of statistics to get to the 600 member cap for guilds and we are happy to say that this value covers more than 99.9% of all the active guilds in World of Warcraft.

The small number of guilds that are over the 600 person cap will be able to keep their guilds intact (and fully supported in the new guild system), but they will not be able to add new members until they fall below the 600 member cap.

Dressing Room Zoom
Cataclysm will add a much-needed feature to the Dressing Room, you can finally zoom in/out with your mousewheel! (Thanks to Twible for his PM)



The real purpose of Goblins revealed in a Cinematic Easter Egg
The cinematic posted a few days ago has an ... interesting easter egg. Can you find it in this picture? (Thanks to Chromatic19 for his PM!)



Honor Jewelcrafter Quartermaster gone in 4.0.1
Apparently, the Jewelcrafter Quartermaster will be removed in 4.0.1. A lot of people have been asking what would be the new price of epic gems with the new honor points, the answer is simple, you can no longer buy them in 4.0.1. The NPC has been recycled as a Weapon Quartermaster.



Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
New race/classes combo availability
They will be available to everyone shortly before the release of Cataclysm when The Shattering takes place. (Source)

Dance Studio - Blizzard promised me a (dancing) pony!
New dances remain a work in progress and we do not have plans to implement them prior to Cataclysm.

[...] We absolutely wouldn't advertise something in a trailer if we have no intention of including that feature. The trailers are virtually always created more than a year prior to the release of what they're advertising. All of the features are planned -- or work on them has already begun -- but we never know until much closer to the release date what features might have to be shelved to ensure bigger features are polished.

We announced new dances for Wrath of the Lich King and a good deal of work went into them, but we weren't happy with the feature overall as we got closer to release. We decided we would hold off on trying to push it out anyway and focus on bigger projects.

This is the nature of good development, even if it leaves some disappointed. (Source)

New Official Website
The new website is still in development and planned for release prior to the launch of Cataclysm. The new forums will coincide with this release. (Source)

Guild Leveling
Guild features in 4.0.1
The user interface changes for guilds will take place in 4.0.1. The actual guild advancement features will be implemented with Cataclysm itself. (Source)

Guild Mounts reputation requirements
The reputation requirement will be shown on the tooltip once the reward is unlocked via it's corresponding achievement.

Both the guild mounts require exalted faction to purchase. (Source)

Guild Experience/Reputation Boost on Beta
The 5x multiplier is currently active for both experience and reputation. Getting stuck around 9k is right around where we expect players to be with the multiplier. The cap on reputation is weekly and will reset Tuesday night at 3am. (Source)

Raids & Dungeons
Mimiron's Head / Invincible in 4.0.1
No changes are being made to raid mounts in patch 4.0.1. (Source)

Realm First achievements - 10/25 Mode
They are available to both 10 and 25 player raids, whoever does it first.

[...] We currently have no plans to change realm first raid kills into separate achievements for 10 / 25 player raids. Our new flexible raid lock system allows players many more choices and opportunities to complete the content in the way that suits them best. Making separate achievements here goes directly against that philosophy.

And just to be clear, these achievements offer no rewards or titles. (Source)

Classes
Ability queue system
If I am tanking on live, and I spamming devastate pre-emptively and I see shield slam light up from my proc, I can easily switch over to hitting shield slam and shield slam will go off.

On beta, if I am spamming devastate and I see shield slam light up. I will be locked into devastate if it's within like 1~sec until the GCD is up. I see devastate light up, I try spam to hit shield slam but it will not go off.
We had to change the ability queue system you are describing to fix an exploit that was threatening to become pretty widespread. It is unfortunately one of those cases where a few bad apples ruin things for everyone.

We are working on an improvement where the most recent command will override the previous one. If for example you are spamming Hamstring, and then succeed in snaring someone, you can switch to Mortal Strike which will clear out the Hamstring queue instead of wasting more GCDs on Hamstring. (Source)

Death Knight (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)
Rune Strike
We changed Rune Strike to: after a dodge or parry or whenever you are in Blood Presence.

We can use RS any time we have 20 RP if we are in blood presence, No cd other then GCD. No need for avoidance to light it up.
Correct. (Source)

Paladin (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)
Holy Paladin - Beacon of Light / Protector of the Innocent
Beacon isn't going anywhere. We think the Cataclysm implementation is in a good place between never wanting to heal the tank and always wanting to heal the tank.

We changed Protector of the Innocent to make the talent feel less like Divinity not because we were trying to band-aid any real or imagined paladin problems as some of your conspiracy theories suggest.

If, as some of you think, Holy paladin throughput is low, then we'll buff it before it goes live. It will be easier to make direct comparisons between healing specs once more folks (besides us I mean) are testing raids. And by direct comparisons, I don't mean who wins the meters. (Source)

Paladin Tanking and GCD
As you might have surmised, I spent a lot of time in this thread gathering information because we were concerned about player perceptions of the paladin rotation. That conversation in turn spawned additional, less-public conversations and ultimately resulted in our convening a distinguished panel of experts in our secret mountain hideaway for a discussion of paladin tanking mechanics.

While we still have grave concerns about players being able to fill every GCD, we also don't want to change paladin tanking so much that it is unrecognizable for long-term paladins. Therefore, we are going to try Crusader Strike on a 3 second cooldown for Protection only. Hammer of the Righteous will have the same cooldown. This will allow Protection to fill in almost every gap in the rotation and not be waiting so long on every cooldown, which should help the rotation feel more active. It will also allow Inquisition and Shield of the Righteous to sometimes be up at the same time. That change is pretty significant and will no doubt invite all sorts of theorycrafting on the right way to manage Holy Power. We still have additional grave concerns that once paladins can have both Inquisition and Shield of the Righteous up simultaneously that they will feel underpowered and therefore frustrated whenever they lack sufficient Holy Power for 100% uptime on both. We'll just have to see how that feels.

While we still think an off the GCD interrupt isn't an essential tool for a tank, we also don't think it's going to break anything for paladins to have one either. Our eventual solution is to let Vindication's ability to let HoJ interrupt also take HoJ off of the global cooldown. That change will require new tech, so it's not something you're likely to see anytime soon, but you can know that it's in our long term plans. Again, we don't think the interrupt issue is a critical problem that must be solved today. The rotation one in the previous paragraph is a bigger deal.

I have to add the standard no promises clause to all of the above, because I have learned that I need to do that. (Source)

I'm sorry I disagree with people here, but I don't like bieng GCD locked, its not fun, its not a test of skill, its a test of your ability to get your rotation into muscle memory and alternate CS with other abilities. I see no reason that cast random doesn't fill in the second half of our rotation as it stands...
We agree, Llowelyn. Our hope is that the changes I described above still provide some gaps without crossing the line into too many unpredictable gaps, which is it how it felt for a lot of paladins. I do have concerns that several months from now we're going to see "Stop making me use Judgement! I don't have the GCDs to use it, and I CAN'T delay Crusader Strike, or I am missing out on Holy Power generation and my threat goes to pot!" (Source)

Inquisition
We like Inquisition as an ability for Protection. It means that all your Holy Power doesn't automatically go to Shield of the Righteous. You might sometimes be able to have both layered now. That was a concern we had, but it also may prove interesting as long as one isn't always the right choice and as long as paladins don't start complaining when they don't have enough Holy Power generation to always power both. (Source)

Hammer of the Righteous/Crusader Strike Cooldown
Crusader Strike - 3 sec cooldown. Hammer of the Righteous - 3 sec cooldown. Cooldown shared for both. (Source)

Hammer of the Righteous scaling
We realized that the AE portion of Hammer of the Righteous didn't scale with Vengeance. While it's true that Prot paladins gain some spell power, they get it from Strength, not the attack power provided by Vengeance. We changed Hammer to scale with attack power, which should mean it hits harder with Vengeance. That will provide some of the damage boost you are looking for. (Source)
This article was originally published in forum thread: Raid Testing, Guild Cap, Goblin Easter Egg, Blue Posts started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 175 Comments
  1. Jonin's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimshady View Post
    Guild Cap = 600?

    BYE BYE GOON SQUAD- Mal'Ganis! MWAHAHAHAHA!
    Thats a negative
  1. madski's Avatar
    anyone else think that it looks like the new fringe trailers
  1. zombiekiller2223's Avatar
    eww worgens im sorry but I do not want to play a furry
  1. TheWaffler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by isendims View Post
    It is not on the box, I'm looking at it right now. It also doesn't mention air-combat in wintergrasp that some complain about. The box I have is also from release day.
    Air combat is mentioned (and even shown) when you open the front of the box. On mine, at least.
  1. Benggaul's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sterb View Post
    Yup, because rolling out new passwords to 5000 members every couple hours wouldn't be totally obnoxious. Get real.
    Because large guilds certainly don't have their own forums...

    And every couple of hours? If your password info is getting leaked that often then your guild doing something wrong.

    Seriously, there was need for hostility?
  1. lunaspike's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by evonath View Post
    Luna's right. The sky is indeed falling.

    Let's get real for a second here. I play a protection paladin (going on 3 years now) and I copied over to the PTR. My first dungeon was a horrible mess, but each one to follow got significantly better. After about 10 dungeons, I joined an ICC 10 (no premade toons) and the only threat issue I ran into was the DK who was still using Blood Presence. My survivability was fine - though the healers were having issues in general.

    Was/is it clunky? Yes. It's very different from what it is on Live. Are there "issues"? Sure, minor ones. There's nothing 'broken' about the class. Get over the fact that you don't know how to accept change.

    The sky is falling.
    Please post some screens. I did, several threads back. I'm pretty sure you took at least one right?

    I would rather have massive changes and overhauls than be class like rogue which has barely changed at all.
    Maybe, but I can almost promise you if they told you suddenly "rogues have been redone and now use rage and everything is different" you would want as much information as possible.

    My point is still valid though. The reason we have so many blue posts on the class is because it had to be redone. Now they are trying to explain some of those changes. People don't seem to get that. Most of the people in this forum QQed about paladins being faceroll. They had no solid foundation for it. Even though it is true, retribution was really easy. Healing was more difficult, and so was tanking. The class had a specialty, aoe tanking. It wasn't the best on single target, but it specialized in aoe tanking and mitigation. So now the big question many paladins have (myself included) is where do I fit in. I don't have the survivability of a dk or druid. I don't have their threat, (sure it's better now, but still). My mitigation is block, which has a chance to reduce incoming physical damage in front of by 30%. Really take a look at that.

    1. it must be physical damage
    2. it must come from the front of the paladin (yes there is a cone)
    3. it only has a chance to even mitigate damage
    4. IF it procs, then it will prevent 30% of the damage.

    Warriors are in the same boat on this one. Anyone that has tanked on a paladin knows that the whole point we were shooting for by maximizing health, and armor over things like dodge was to remove rng from the equation. Yet now it is being forced down our throats. I would have no problem with it if they would adjust block, everything else I can work around. My damage was much lower on the ptr, roughly half of live. Still I can live with that, I can figure out ways to make it work. I CAN NOT figure out a way to make RNG work in my favor. It's random. Giving a tank a mitigation based on something random just doesn't work out well. Yet many of our abilities are based on a random proc.

    I'm not saying the sky is falling, I may have to shelve my paladin for a bit in favor of my dk or druid. I will play him if they ever actually get around to fixing the class. Even the guy qqing at me that paladins are fine admitted there were some problems on the ptr. Yet we are supposed to overlook those and trust in blizz to fix them. I think this guy hasn't been playing long or he would remember how many "fixes" paladins have had.
  1. Raqubor's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by lunaspike View Post
    You must be a complete idiot. Is this really the mental level that most wow players are at? A little more focus on other classes? How about the focus on fixing the classes they have broken. O.k., let me put this in small words. That is probably all you understand anyway.

    If whatever class you play, probably a rogue/mage/priest, suddenly got completely redone you would want some explanation. Now, in the case of paladins they gave us that, then said "hey, everything works good". Well they lied, big time. Not everything worked good, hell many things didn't work right at all. Imagine if as a mage (thinking this guy is a mage for the whole 2 button class) they suddenly made it so that your am had a chance to proc off your ab which has a chance to proc off of your fireball, or frostbolt. It's very similar to that now. Not only have they completely redone our class in talents, but they have gutted our abilities, added in a new resource, reduced our tanking major mitigation, changed how we deal damage, healing is way way different. There is no other class that has even close to this many changes. On top of that paladins make up a large portion of the player base.

    To the people that want to call them face roll, you are also idiots. Every single class can be thought of as faceroll by someone.

    If you want a direct way this affects you, fine. Paladins switch to dps, since that is what blizz obviously wants us to do. Then your queues get longer, because a big portion of tanks are paladins. When they all quit tanking and roll dps. Guess what happens? That's right, your queue times triple. See how it affects you now. Well now add in how many healers aren't going to be healing, maybe they will reroll priest. If they are smart they will. If not, they dps.
    For your information, i play a warrior (so don't worry since I'm a tank myself) and you don't want me to remember 3.0-3.2 time. I also play an enhancement shaman, but yeah, they are totally OK (not), but no matter how much suggestions the community gives for enhancement shamans... nothing. And then there are paladins.
  1. JaceDraccus's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by lunaspike View Post
    You must be a complete idiot. Is this really the mental level that most wow players are at? A little more focus on other classes? How about the focus on fixing the classes they have broken. O.k., let me put this in small words. That is probably all you understand anyway.
    I find it hilarious that you complain about the 'mental level that most wow players are at', while your own post is full of playground rhetoric.

    Well played, friend. Well played indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Because large guilds certainly don't have their own forums...
    Of course they don't. And Blizz would never put in any kind of function that allows people to view guild-wide announcements, or a space for them to put permanent information about the guild... that would be far too useful.

    :P

    Granted, if the megaguild is split into half a dozen miniguilds, each of those may need updating individually, but still, it's a far cry from rolling it out to 5000 individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Seriously, there was need for hostility?
    Welcome to the Internet, where disagreeing automatically makes you wrong and the target of unwarranted hostility to rival a nuclear bombardment.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-07 at 12:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Argroth View Post
    What I think that fool (Zarhym) is trying to get at is that important things to some people (dance studio) arn't as import to other people BUT that wasn't the point the poster was trying to make. It's not so much that it's being pushed aside it's that it has ben pushed aside so much that they broke thier "promise" that it would ever be released.
    Actually, what I think Zarhym meant was that the comparison made by that poster isn't really a valid comparison. For one thing, game design doesn't have much in common with making milkshakes. For another, saying "this has been pushed aside in favor of other projects we think are more valuable to the game" is not really like "We are not going to do it, but we're still advertising it five months after we initially intended to release it".

    I mean, it's not like they're advertising it on worldofwarcraft.com, is it? I don't think I've seen Boub make a single update post about it in the last few months... hell, this is the first I've ever heard of it and I'm still not sure exactly what we're talking about. I may not be the most clued-up player when it comes to behind the scenes stuff (too busy playing and working IRL), but I'm surprised that if this is SUCH A BIG ISSUE, I haven't heard of it.

    I get the impression that the devs don't like repeating themselves. So if you keep harping on a point they feel they have already explained enough, then at best they won't answer, and at worst you get a snide remark about apples and oranges.
  1. theburned's Avatar
    its not really spelt fail... because the L is not an L because of the degrees used..., but sure whatever you say... bad easter egg.
  1. MilkTheNet's Avatar
    Ah, interesting
  1. Argroth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JaceDraccus View Post
    Actually, what I think Zarhym meant was that the comparison made by that poster isn't really a valid comparison. For one thing, game design doesn't have much in common with making milkshakes. For another, saying "this has been pushed aside in favor of other projects we think are more valuable to the game" is not really like "We are not going to do it, but we're still advertising it five months after we initially intended to release it".

    I mean, it's not like they're advertising it on worldofwarcraft.com, is it? I don't think I've seen Boub make a single update post about it in the last few months... hell, this is the first I've ever heard of it and I'm still not sure exactly what we're talking about. I may not be the most clued-up player when it comes to behind the scenes stuff (too busy playing and working IRL), but I'm surprised that if this is SUCH A BIG ISSUE, I haven't heard of it.

    I get the impression that the devs don't like repeating themselves. So if you keep harping on a point they feel they have already explained enough, then at best they won't answer, and at worst you get a snide remark about apples and oranges.
    Actually it is a good comparison. The poster wasn't saying it is as easy as making milkshakes but just like McDonalds makes milshakes Blizzard makes software, each should be responsible for the product they make. So far it IS "we are not going to do it" as much as Duke Nukem forever was constantly pushed back then decided it was never done, but at least DNF had a few hints as to how far progressed it has gotten.

    IT IS advertised on Worldofwarcraft.com (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/wrath/) not to mention it was in half the commercials and trailers right up to WotLK release. Boub hasn't posted anything cause like I've stated, they've for all intents and purposes have abandoned it; there is no progress. It was advertised as a WotLK feature and unless it appears in the next two months it is vaporware because they lied and there is no limit to how far they will push it back. It's not a BIG issue because Blizzard sweeps it under the rug all the time (like Zarhyms useless post) while throwing different things in our face to distract the simple minded children who are distracted by shiny things.

    Sure devs don't like repeating themselves but what they repeat is nothing; "We were going to do it but then didn't, we are going to get around to it soon" but they have already established that any progress goes in front of keeping their responsibilities in order because it's an endless cycle as long as they even consider the idea for another expansion or more money grubbing things like the Pet Store
  1. JaceDraccus's Avatar
    Huh, yup, there it is, a customisation option. Ok, I concede that it is, in fact, on the worldofwarcraft.com site. Even if it is on a page that most people wouldn't bother looking at now, this far into Wrath.

    So no, it's not a good comparison. The original scenario implied that McDonalds would still be advertising the shakes despite not being able to supply them. This is more like they left the sign up and pasted the most recent promotion over the top of it.

    Zarhym did say ' we weren't happy with the feature overall as we got closer to release.' That's like McDonalds saying "We found that the food colouring in the shakes may cause cancer".

    I can't see how that is not being responsible for their product. If it was buggy, or glitched constantly, people would QQ even harder about it. For example, it's possible that the dance matrices for each race are not one size fits all. Watching your gnome get ripped apart or stretched out so he can dance like a tauren doesn't sound fun.

    Are we defining 'no progress' as 'not released', or 'not worked on at all'? If it's the latter, how do you know? Also... 'game experience may change during online play'.

    And maybe, just maybe, people wouldn't get repeated 'nothing' if they didn't harp on the same old issue. You got 'nothing' the first time, what are the odds that will change the 10th? 100th? 1000th?

    In any case, it's their game, their company, their choice how they spend their time. All they owe you for your subscription is access to a functioning game. If you get a dance studio, great! If they don't release it when they initially thought they'd be able to, well, sure that's disappointing, but bitching at them, shouting out cries of 'vaporware' and 'fools!' does nothing worthwhile.

    EDIT: I will concede that Zarhym's remark about apples and oranges may not be entirely professional, and that a little more transparency on the issue may go some way to cutting down on the whining about it. But, you know, Zarhym's still human... unless Blizzard has cyborg technology. So maybe he had a bad day, or the bile and invective frustrated him. I know it frustrates me. Also, keep in mind that he's probably got rules on how much he can say on a topic so as to prevent spoilers or accidentally letting slip things that get the community overexcited before Blizz are ready for it.

    It can't be an easy job dealing with WoW players. Sometimes it's painful enough just reading trade chat. At least I can go quest to get away from it, or turn off the channel.
  1. Argroth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JaceDraccus View Post
    Even if it is on a page that most people wouldn't bother looking at now, this far into Wrath.
    Just because it isn't on the main page dosn't mean that they didn't say they would do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaceDraccus View Post
    So no, it's not a good comparison. The original scenario implied that McDonalds would still be advertising the shakes despite not being able to supply them. This is more like they left the sign up and pasted the most recent promotion over the top of it.

    Zarhym did say ' we weren't happy with the feature overall as we got closer to release.' That's like McDonalds saying "We found that the food colouring in the shakes may cause cancer".
    Actually the "We found that the food colouring in the shakes may cause cancer" is the worst comparison yet. I can't be 100% sure but i'm pretty sure that introducing a simple "Pick a dance your character can do" wouldn't break the game (certainly not anymore than any patch would). Blizzard didn't quite "Paste over it" but it is still advertised and it dosn't exist as far as we know. Like I said they swept it under the rug because they can't be bothered to do their job

    Quote Originally Posted by JaceDraccus View Post
    I can't see how that is not being responsible for their product. If it was buggy, or glitched constantly, people would QQ even harder about it. For example, it's possible that the dance matrices for each race are not one size fits all. Watching your gnome get ripped apart or stretched out so he can dance like a tauren doesn't sound fun.
    Even if they released it buggy or incomplete they can fix it eventually and have it over with but if they leave it unfinished forever overall they will get just as much grief for it, but this way they avoid all responsibility because they can can claim they are working on it and noone can call them out on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaceDraccus View Post
    Are we defining 'no progress' as 'not released', or 'not worked on at all'? If it's the latter, how do you know? Also... 'game experience may change during online play'.

    And maybe, just maybe, people wouldn't get repeated 'nothing' if they didn't harp on the same old issue. You got 'nothing' the first time, what are the odds that will change the 10th? 100th? 1000th?
    As long as they claim that "it's in the works" and it may come out "soon" with no proof of progress over the 2 years its supposedly in development I can claim that they havn't with equally no proof.

    The point in asking the 10th,100th and 1000th time is that over time progress should have been made but hasn't. If people don't keep on it it can disappear into the ether and they get off scott free for lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaceDraccus View Post
    but bitching at them, shouting out cries of 'vaporware' and 'fools!' does nothing worthwhile.
    Technically here it's unlikely that any blizzard employee will ever see it but, like any comment, people like to vent their opinion. I can't even post on blizzard forums if I wanted too because I quit WoW months ago and i can't sign in with a frozen account.
  1. JaceDraccus's Avatar
    At the end of the day, mate, believe what you like. I can't change your mind. I think you're being overly pessimistic and bitter about it ('couldn't be bothered to do their job'? 'scot free for lying'? That is some loaded language right there), but hey, that's your choice. I just can't shape my perspective to fit your world view.
  1. kojinshugi's Avatar
    I really don't understand their reasoning.

    Rotations with gaps need MORE attention because they can't be handled by muscle memory. It's not as if pushing a button every 1.5 seconds is a massively complicated task, yet they say they want to give us more time to deal with fight mechanics and less with rotation.

    Pushing buttons doesn't conflict with looking around, unless you're a clicker, because pushing buttons doesn't require your attention. Figuring out when to use every single ability you have does take actual attention, and therefore decreases the amount of mental resources you have available for situational awareness.

    It's like saying the piano is too difficult to play so we'll randomly transpose they keyboard and indicate where the octave starts with colored lights. Thanks, now I can't look at the sheet music because I have to stare at my fingers.

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