Patch 4.1 Preview -- Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker)
In patch 4.1 we'll be introducing Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms, a new system intended to lower queue times. Call to Arms will automatically detect which class role is currently the least represented in the queue, and offer them additional rewards for entering the Dungeon Finder queue and completing a random level-85 Heroic dungeon.

Any time the Dungeon Finder queue is longer than a few minutes for level-85 Heroics, the Call to Arms system kicks in and determines which role is the least represented. In the case of tanking being the least represented role, the "Call to Arms: Tanks" icon will display in the Dungeon Finder UI menu where class roles are selected, and will also display on the UI when the queue pops and you are selected to enter a dungeon. Regardless of your role, you'll always be able to see which role currently has been Called to Arms, if any.

Call to Arms is meant to lower wait times by offering additional rewards for queuing as the currently least represented role. To be eligible for the additional rewards you must solo queue for a random level-85 Heroic in the role that is currently being Called to Arms, and complete the dungeon by killing the final boss. Every time you hit these requirements (there is no daily limit) you'll receive a goodie bag that will contain some gold, a chance at a rare gem, a chance at a flask/elixir (determined by spec), a good chance of receiving a non-combat pet (including cross faction pets), and a very rare chance at receiving a mount. The pets offered come from a wide variety of sources, and include companions like the Razzashi Hatchling, Cockatiel, and Tiny Sporebat, but the mounts are those specifically only available through dungeons (not raids), like the Reins of the Raven Lord from Sethekk Halls, Swift White Hawkstrider from Magister's Terrace, and Deathcharger's Reins from Stratholme.

This system is meant to address the unacceptable queue times currently being experienced by those that queue for the DPS role at max level. The long queue times are, of course, caused by a very simple lack of representation in the Dungeon Finder by tanks, and to some extent healers. We don't feel the tanking and healing roles have any inherent issues that are causing the representation disparity, except that fulfilling them carries more responsibility. Understandably, players prefer to take on that responsibility in more organized situations than what the Dungeon Finder offers, but perhaps we can bribe them a little. While this system gives tanks and healers something extra, the incentive is being provided so that we can help players in the DPS role get into more dungeons, get better gear, and continue progressing.

While the gold, gems, flasks, and elixirs are OK incentives, we knew we needed something more substantial. We had briefly considered Valor Points and epics, but decided that wouldn't be working toward the goal of helping DPS players progress, and ultimately wouldn't keep tanks and healers in the Dungeon Finder system for very long. We settled on pets and dungeon-found mounts as they’re cosmetic/achievement items that players tend to try to get on their own, so why not change that up and offer them a chance to get some of those elusive pets and mounts in a way that also helps other players? Even if they don't get a pet or mount, or get one they already have, the gold and other goodies still feel rewarding enough that it won't feel like a waste of effort.

We think it's a pretty solid incentive to get tanks and healers queuing, give max-level players another way to collect the pets and mounts they so desire, and above all, to improve wait times for DPS players sitting in queues. In the case of lower level dungeons, it's actually not uncommon for DPS to be the least represented role, and so if this new system works out and we're pleased with the results, we may consider applying this same mechanic to lower level dungeons as well.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 4.1 Preview -- Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 1855 Comments
  1. mmoc8eb592856e's Avatar
    Tbh in worst case this system will totally sabotage whole LFG system. Sure 10 min que, but result is 5%-10% success rate? If they gona make this success also gonan have to nerf hcs "to the ground"
  1. jearle's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallius View Post
    Well, try not to personify all DPS'ers as whiny bastards. That's a start.

    This is a brand new system and I completely understand a lot of concerns that a lot of players have on both sides of the fence (tanks/healers and dps). My own concerns were that of the balance of quality people actually running the heroics once this change goes through. Good healers and Tanks are the exception, not the rule anymore. I've played since 1.1 (grandpa flashback, sepia tone) and back then if you rolled a tank or a healer you had better know how to do your job or you wouldn't run with anyone on your entire server (since this was before LFD). I just don't want face-rolled, off-spec'd tanks/healers causing more problems for the run than there was in the first place.

    You mentioned this being a "band-aid to a severed limb of a problem". What are your thoughts on how this could be fixed? Since we essentially have a template to work from we can extrapolate from it and create something better, maybe. My suggestion of offering something to everyone for running the dungeon (even if it's not the same incentives that tanks/healers would get) I believe is a step in the right direction. Solid DPS is just as important as solid tanking/healing.
    I really have nothing against DPS, if anything my angst lies with shitty tanks who have no right to be tanking in the first place.
    The sad thing is there is no solid solution to the DF problem and there never will be mainly due to the 5 man set up and human nature. The DF tool is convenient and its easy to sit down and queue to do a dungeon. The archetype of the current mmo group(generally) set up plays into a game of supply and demand. There will always be a huge oversupply of DPS compared to tank and to some extent healers. This leads to the tank god complex attitude which annoys the shit out of me too.

    /soapbox

    Tanks being the lowest supplied commodity are sought after. People start to re-roll, people start to re-spec just become the commodity that is the most sought after and enjoy instant que times ect.

    So at this point we still have more tanks but still a smaller ration compared to dps. However now 50% of the new tanks have no idea what they're doing or in general shouldn't be tanking in the first place and they are only doing it to "work the system".

    This leads to a widespread mentality of tanks being superior and god complexes arise. The attitudes of most tanks I run into is just horrible for the most part these days. Mainly because they would rather be DPS'ing/healing but they're tanking simply to get through it quicker. They bitch at DPS in a heroic and vote kick on a whim if someone makes a mistake. God forbid a wipe occurs, and they bounce instantly.
    /offsoapbox

    Suggestion
    My suggestion to make the DF tool more equal would have to be a better matchmaking system cross realm that allows you to request to be friends across realm and it has to be approved by that person. That way over time if you have "friended" a number of tanks who have in turn accepted you as a friend when you queue it could try to match your "friend" flags.

    This type of system would allow DPS to pick which tanks they want to "friend" and allows tanks the opportunity to pick which good dps they wish to friend.

    The more "friends" you have throughout your matchmaking group would reduce your queue times versus some douchebag who doesn't have any because he runs his mouth. The really good dps will be able to get alot of tanks on their friends list quickly. This would also make fresh 85s wait longer than established 85s which in my opinion is how it should be.

    I believe someone who has been 85 for a few months as a DPS and has worked on their gear should have a reduced queue time compared to a fresh 85 barely making the mark, not astronomically reduced but it should be shorter.

    Example:
    Youre in a queue for dungeon the DF tool is constantly trying to match you with people you have flagged as "friends" you have been in the que for 10 minutes and one of your x realm "friend" tanks queues up. That tank gets an instance immediately and it pulls in his "friend" flagged people first, which could possibly reduce your que time if theres nobody else that fits the role and has been waiting longer that is also on his "friend" list
  1. Taiki420's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithshield View Post
    For those of us who are social and have friends, this is a horrible change. Now if I am a tank, I am penalized for queuing with my friends and family. I would be better off queuing with random people from random servers then with my guildmates.

    Yes, great way to enhance the already hurting community of this MMO. I wonder how long before WoW is about as multiplayer as Warcraft 3.
    You aren't penalized for running with your friends, you just won't get the bonus. It's an INCENTIVE, as in not a requirement. If you are blowing off your friends for some gold and a chance at a few other things, then you should think about how much you really like your friends..
  1. Tokru's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky_b View Post
    That was my point. People are thinking these new mounts are just going to be handed out, they aren't. The drop rate is going to be equal to the rate they dropped in the original instance. The incentive is queuing for a heroic instead of doing the original instance solo. Most people aren't looking at it this way, but once you see it for what it is, it's really a win/win. The tank doesn't have to solo the original, the DPS get shorter queue times.
    Why would anyone ever choose to run a heroic which takes much more time and has a relatively high chance to cause repair costs because of random people when you could have the same result (chance on a mount) with absolutely no risk in an older dungeon in 5min?
  1. lotj's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    I believe someone who is 85 as a DPS and has worked on their gear should have a reduced queue time compared to a fresh 85 barely making the mark.
    Gear doesn't seem to matter too much for dps, though. I could pull ~9-10k dps on my frost dk with an ilvl 326 or so, yet encountered more than a few frost/unholy dk's on my tank main who couldn't even break 3-4k with a 15% buff and a 344-350 ilvl.

    Besides, we're talking about heroics -- their whole purpose is to gear up for raids. Penalizing people with 330-346 ilvl just seems silly, since they're the ones who should be in heroics getting gear.
  1. Uselessrouge's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by msbxghost View Post
    time to make my drood offspec feral
    well you see... thats how they make the hero waiting time shorter.. its what evrybody wanted..


    omg some stupid pets and mounts that real collectors have since 3 years omg omg..



    be happy for the waiting time and stop crying.. ^^
  1. angelicodin's Avatar
    This is one of the more recently less thought out features.

    I can totally understand the DEV team wanting to find some creative ways to get more tanks and healers to que up for randoms in an attempt to lower DPS times, but this will not change the amount of people putting them self's into random ques. Yes this 'might' help some cases where some of the collectors that are missing these rare items, but giving out some non-combat pets and gold at least for me, is not a motivating aspect to throw my self into the fray.

    Beside the point of rewarding tanks and healers more, as it has been pointed out already, there seems to be a lack of balance for the DPS who que up. As it is already a hard enough time to sit in que for 30-80mins, depending on the time of day and what day of the week, but to throw extra rewards for classes/specs that are 'always' needed more of, it seems a little disingenuous. This is of course not even looking at PvP, where those guys/gals have to work just as hard if not harder for their gear then to learn there is extra bonus outside of their play choices if they take one for the team, sort to speak.

    To really lower que times, we would have to get around ten times the amount of healers and tanks using the dungeon finder, at least in my opinion, to average out the amount of time one has to wait for a dungeon. Please don't get me wrong, ever since they added the dungeon finder tool, it is infinitely easier to get into a dungeon and to gear up, but at the same time, waiting from 30mins to an hour or more then to do a dungeon for 30mins to an hour (bad group) dose not seem healthy for a lot of player's sanity. Especially when it the feel of wow is moving to a more 'fast play time' style where one can sit down, enjoy an hour or so of game time and feel accomplished.

    Do I have a better idea? Not really. The reason I do not have one is there are not enough balance of classes. What I mean by this is there is 4 tank specs, 5 healer spec, and 22 DPS specs. This spans over the 10 classes we can play. 2 are tank/dps, 2 is tank/heal/dps, 2 heal/dps, and 4 dps. These numbers don't add up. Yes I know that some classes are made to be only dps, but still, you would think if there was more specs or classes to even this out a little it wouldn't be as much of a problem, nor is this the best and only solution to this problem, rather just some thought.

    I am happy that is it being addressed, but the way this is planned out, to me, was not vary well thought.
  1. Jathro's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by anima88 View Post
    if EVERYBODY had incentive to que then DPS would be in the same boat they are now.....
    The point is that there should be incentive for everyone to queue. But rewarding people because they happen to play a spec capable of tanking and/or healing is of little comfort to those who don't and aren't offered the same rewards.
  1. Taiki420's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokru View Post
    Why would anyone ever choose to run a heroic which takes much more time and has a relatively high chance to cause repair costs because of random people when you could have the same result (chance on a mount) with absolutely no risk in an older dungeon in 5min?
    Because I find soloing old raids boring, and haven't had many issues myself as a Tank since Cata rolled out. These horror stories of bag pugs all sound terrible don't get me wrong, but it's no where near bad enough to make me not want to tank. And repair costs? lol...
  1. Nalloa's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Drekmar View Post
    ...the problem is not in the game, it is in the player itself. Blizzard cant fix it, because its the playerbase.
    This x 1000. I agree that CTA is a "band aide" but it's the only thing Blizzard has come up with so far to "stop the bleeding" so to speak. The reason Blizzard can't just swoop in and fix it (short of turning HC's into Wrath-level difficulty) is because the issue is with the players. I'm not aiming that at DPS, as been said many times so far, there are asshole DPS out there and there are high-horse tanks and healers. The problem isn't about a certain class or role, the problem is a very large portion of the player-base that uses the LFD tool because guilds won't take them most likely (and for good reason).

    I've see DPS posting their frustrations here because they are annoyed that many of the asshole tanks out there are saying that pew pew is too easy and that Blizzard is supporting that conjecture, but the reality is and has always been that playing a tank/dps/healer like crap is easy and playing a tank/dps/healer well is more challenging. I'm pretty up on my rotations as a (previous) tank, and there were some amazing DPS I had in PUGs and guilds that blew my "activity" metric out of the water.

    Tanks - and to a certain extent healers - aren't harder to play well IMO, it's just they have more pressure on them. That is a fact, it cannot be argued. With everything else being equal they have more responsibly on them than anyone else in a PUG HC. You're expected to know all the pulls, be geared out (vs. DPS being able to get by with sub-standard gear), know all the fights, the layout, CC order, keep threat on any one of 3+ targets that DPS might not be killing in the right order, tab-targeting, interrupts, yada yada.

    Until people chill out and learn to get along with each other, treat each other with respect and be willing to explain and learn things no amount of pets, gold or otherwise would get me to re-sub and start tanking HC PUGS again.

    [EDIT] Grammar n' stuff.
  1. chrisisvacant's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalavaaris View Post
    Bollocks! Honestly, im fairly sure nothing I say or do will change this. Do I agree with it? No... But hey, what can I do? Might as well sit back and enjoy the shorter queue times that I SHOULD already have as a paying subscriber. Until then I shall wait in queue one minute for every thousand dps I do. Sigh.... Balls to it.
    How the hell does this translate to paying subscribers at all? How should Blizzard force other paying customers to play tanks? LOL. What a sense of entitlement!
  1. Taiki420's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jathro View Post
    The point is that there should be incentive for everyone to queue. But rewarding people because they happen to play a spec capable of tanking and/or healing is of little comfort to those who don't and aren't offered the same rewards.
    Then reroll a tank/healer, this is the whole point! If you can't be asked to roll another character because you want the rewards so bad, then put them in the back of your mind, because until (if..) DPS queues even out you won't be getting them.
  1. Octopus's Avatar
    So at this point we still have more tanks but still a smaller ration compared to dps. However now 50% of the new tanks have no idea what they're doing or in general shouldn't be tanking in the first place and they are only doing it to "work the system".

    I think a large part of the problem is Blizzard encourage you to level as dps... there's no reason at all to play as healer or tank pre-85. If blizzard introduced some interesting mechanics for healers/tanks, then maybe people would want to re-roll and play them D: We're still in the age of hit mobs, generate aggro. Blizzard needs to evolve.
  1. Jathro's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Taiki420 View Post
    Then reroll a tank/healer, this is the whole point! If you can't be asked to roll another character because you want the rewards so bad, then put them in the back of your mind, because until (if..) DPS queues even out you won't be getting them.
    This is a flawed argument. If you really want people to reroll tank then what's the point of even having a hunter, warlock, rogue, or mage class? Great, reroll tank - That doesn't help player x gear up his mage that he's trying to raid with.
  1. Taiki420's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Octopus View Post
    I think a large part of the problem is Blizzard encourage you to level as dps... there's no reason at all to play as healer or tank pre-85. If blizzard introduced some interesting mechanics for healers/tanks, then maybe people would want to re-roll and play them D: We're still in the age of hit mobs, generate aggro. Blizzard needs to evolve.
    You can level in Prot and Holy easily as a Paladin now. Same for a Warrior with their Tank role. I don't know about druids, but it can't be that bad either. I personally prefer to play all the time as a tank. I don't kill enemies as fast but I never die. And when I leveled holy it was the same deal, only in between meleé swings I'd randomly heal myself. Also queues are short for sure at low levels, but tanking and healing do make them a bit faster, and (though I prefer not to) if you level through LFD alone being a tank or healer makes it go by that much quicker.
  1. jearle's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Octopus View Post
    I think a large part of the problem is Blizzard encourage you to level as dps... there's no reason at all to play as healer or tank pre-85. If blizzard introduced some interesting mechanics for healers/tanks, then maybe people would want to re-roll and play them D: We're still in the age of hit mobs, generate aggro. Blizzard needs to evolve.
    Tank specs currently level on par with DPS specs, especially if you level through doing dungeons. On average it takes maybe a few extra seconds to kill a quest mob as a tank and the extra survivability makes up for that.
  1. Taiki420's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jathro View Post
    This is a flawed argument. If you really want people to reroll tank then what's the point of even having a hunter, warlock, rogue, or mage class? Great, reroll tank - That doesn't help player x gear up his mage that he's trying to raid with.
    Play what you want to play, is the point of those classes. You don't NEED the rewards, that's what you aren't getting.
    If you want to play any of the DPS classes that's perfectly cool, and hopefully your queues go down so x player's mage can gear up faster as a result.
  1. Cptmyname's Avatar
    Pardon my french, but:
    WHAT
    THE
    FUCK.
  1. Baek's Avatar
    I think what Blizzard is hoping will happen is that Paladins/Druids/DKs/Warriors queue more often as tanks rather than DPS and more Priests/Druids/Paladins/Shamans queue as heals rather than DPS. Their goal, I would assume, is that at some point the queues balance out as more often than not people in WoW will lean to the side that gets them the most rewards. So the number of people queuing as DPS goes down and tanks and healers go up they are hoping it eventually balances out and possibly swings back the other way once those that have converted to tanking and healing become way more abundant. If anything it just means DPS get faster queue times and I'm all for that. My main is a Paladin tank/healer but when I play my warlock I get really frustrated with the long queue times and something to remedy that and possibly balance things out in the long run (which is what people need to think of here, right now tanks will be the most needed but for how long once this happens and everyone goes tank).

    While a perfect balance isn't going to be possible, it will hopefully sway back and forth between the three roles once the system has a chance to regulate the player base.
  1. Dubzil's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by angelicodin View Post
    This is one of the more recently less thought out features.
    Thanks for your opinion

    I can totally understand the DEV team wanting to find some creative ways to get more tanks and healers to que up for randoms in an attempt to lower DPS times, but this will not change the amount of people putting them self's into random ques. Yes this 'might' help some cases where some of the collectors that are missing these rare items, but giving out some non-combat pets and gold at least for me, is not a motivating aspect to throw my self into the fray.
    Since all tanks and healers are exactly like you, this definitely isn't motivation

    Beside the point of rewarding tanks and healers more, as it has been pointed out already, there seems to be a lack of balance for the DPS who que up. As it is already a hard enough time to sit in que for 30-80mins, depending on the time of day and what day of the week, but to throw extra rewards for classes/specs that are 'always' needed more of, it seems a little disingenuous.
    The whole point of this is to make that 30-80 min queue into a 10-20 min queue............ FOR THE DPSERS.. that is not enough of a reward??

    This is of course not even looking at PvP, where those guys/gals have to work just as hard if not harder for their gear then to learn there is extra bonus outside of their play choices if they take one for the team, sort to speak.
    Your point? this is focused on PVE for a reason, PVP queues are consistant between tanks, dps and healers.

    To really lower que times, we would have to get around ten times the amount of healers and tanks using the dungeon finder, at least in my opinion, to average out the amount of time one has to wait for a dungeon.
    They are not trying to average out the time, they are trying to LOWER the DPS queue time.

    Please don't get me wrong, ever since they added the dungeon finder tool, it is infinitely easier to get into a dungeon and to gear up, but at the same time, waiting from 30mins to an hour or more then to do a dungeon for 30mins to an hour (bad group) dose not seem healthy for a lot of player's sanity. Especially when it the feel of wow is moving to a more 'fast play time' style where one can sit down, enjoy an hour or so of game time and feel accomplished.
    Okay, I'm getting that you would rather wait 80 mins at a chance for a bad tank than 10-20 mins.. but wait, incentives to get tanks that are already geared and doing raid content to go back to heroics is obviously a horrible idea. Keep them bad tanks coming.

    Do I have a better idea? Not really.
    Precisely

    I am happy that is it being addressed, but the way this is planned out, to me, was not vary well thought.
    you and others that QQ will QQ no matter what just because you can find nothing better to do. The problem's being worked on, lets find some way to whine about it.

Site Navigation