MMO-Champion - Patch 4.1 Preview -- Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms
Patch 4.1 Preview -- Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker)
In patch 4.1 we'll be introducing Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms, a new system intended to lower queue times. Call to Arms will automatically detect which class role is currently the least represented in the queue, and offer them additional rewards for entering the Dungeon Finder queue and completing a random level-85 Heroic dungeon.

Any time the Dungeon Finder queue is longer than a few minutes for level-85 Heroics, the Call to Arms system kicks in and determines which role is the least represented. In the case of tanking being the least represented role, the "Call to Arms: Tanks" icon will display in the Dungeon Finder UI menu where class roles are selected, and will also display on the UI when the queue pops and you are selected to enter a dungeon. Regardless of your role, you'll always be able to see which role currently has been Called to Arms, if any.

Call to Arms is meant to lower wait times by offering additional rewards for queuing as the currently least represented role. To be eligible for the additional rewards you must solo queue for a random level-85 Heroic in the role that is currently being Called to Arms, and complete the dungeon by killing the final boss. Every time you hit these requirements (there is no daily limit) you'll receive a goodie bag that will contain some gold, a chance at a rare gem, a chance at a flask/elixir (determined by spec), a good chance of receiving a non-combat pet (including cross faction pets), and a very rare chance at receiving a mount. The pets offered come from a wide variety of sources, and include companions like the Razzashi Hatchling, Cockatiel, and Tiny Sporebat, but the mounts are those specifically only available through dungeons (not raids), like the Reins of the Raven Lord from Sethekk Halls, Swift White Hawkstrider from Magister's Terrace, and Deathcharger's Reins from Stratholme.

This system is meant to address the unacceptable queue times currently being experienced by those that queue for the DPS role at max level. The long queue times are, of course, caused by a very simple lack of representation in the Dungeon Finder by tanks, and to some extent healers. We don't feel the tanking and healing roles have any inherent issues that are causing the representation disparity, except that fulfilling them carries more responsibility. Understandably, players prefer to take on that responsibility in more organized situations than what the Dungeon Finder offers, but perhaps we can bribe them a little. While this system gives tanks and healers something extra, the incentive is being provided so that we can help players in the DPS role get into more dungeons, get better gear, and continue progressing.

While the gold, gems, flasks, and elixirs are OK incentives, we knew we needed something more substantial. We had briefly considered Valor Points and epics, but decided that wouldn't be working toward the goal of helping DPS players progress, and ultimately wouldn't keep tanks and healers in the Dungeon Finder system for very long. We settled on pets and dungeon-found mounts as they’re cosmetic/achievement items that players tend to try to get on their own, so why not change that up and offer them a chance to get some of those elusive pets and mounts in a way that also helps other players? Even if they don't get a pet or mount, or get one they already have, the gold and other goodies still feel rewarding enough that it won't feel like a waste of effort.

We think it's a pretty solid incentive to get tanks and healers queuing, give max-level players another way to collect the pets and mounts they so desire, and above all, to improve wait times for DPS players sitting in queues. In the case of lower level dungeons, it's actually not uncommon for DPS to be the least represented role, and so if this new system works out and we're pleased with the results, we may consider applying this same mechanic to lower level dungeons as well.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 4.1 Preview -- Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 1871 Comments
  1. Moonatic's Avatar
    I don't think this will fix anything but I commend Blizzard for trying to address the issue. However he problem with queue times isn't the result of a tank shortage, so much as a shortage of tanks that are willing to put up with the bullshit. The only real way I see more tanks queuing up for randoms is if the WoW community stops being such asshats to anyone that is still learning the role and frankly I don't see that happening. I know that in some cases the tanks are jerks themselves but maybe if so many people weren't so quick to berate that level 58 dk tank in Hellfire Ramparts that is having trouble holding aggro, we wouldn't be sitting in 45 minute queues at 85.
  1. ExordiusExNihilo's Avatar
    I only think this is slightly unfair. Not because tanks or healers get more, but because this will encourage more failure. There will be more people rolling fail tanks, thus we get less queue time and half the time it being fail groups (hyperbolic). This in turn makes dungeons longer. At least the longer queue time isn't like playing Russian Roulette.

    Another flaw, is this system does nothing for getting good DPS back into the pool. We all have had those failure DPS who only can do 4-5K in a cataclysm heroic. This system needs to be based on numbers... i.e. TPS, DPS, HPS (just as example) it must be something objective.

    Any system that awards people for failure is a flawed system.
  1. Moonatic's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Obby View Post
    sounds to me like more shitty DKs thatll cue up...yay for ramps all over agian?
    Great timing there.
  1. Ascen's Avatar
    I dislike the fact that 'pure' DPS are discriminated against, however I do see the idea Blizzare are putting across.

    If all could get the rewards, on a VERY low drop rate, but give whichever role is on Call To arms a higher chance then I don't see the problem. Just as long as there's enough incentive to join but not enough to make the loot quickly farmed. Would be better to see this approach rather than locking some classes out of the rewards entirely.
  1. walexia's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by doodlehed View Post
    Maybe they could give DPS a bag of goodies every X amount of hours.

    why ?? we don't wanna encourage dps to que at the moment!!! Okay let me expalin this, the problem is being cause by two things which pretty much mean the same thing.

    either:-

    A:There are toooo many dps quing for dungeons and the tanks and healers are not enough to be able to que with all of the them

    B:There are too few tanks/ healers currently quing for dungeons therefore the current dps in ques have to wait longer before a tank /healer decides there is time to jump into one.


    now here's a quick recap question to see if you understood for 20 marks : does increasing the number of dps by providing incentive to them , help the situation?? or does it make our current situation worse?
  1. Renowned's Avatar
    I have an idea and would like a feedback on it .

    I have both a tank and a DPS toons . it's my firm believe that due to the 45+ mins waiting times many DPS (especially pures) rolled tanks . the problem is not that there aren't enough tanks . it's about not enough Tank-capable toons ques for LFD . I also noticed that since I get instants as a tank , I started neglecting my Heroic dailies on my DPS for lacking the patiance for the approx 1-hour wait...

    my idea is like this :

    if a tank solo-que for a pUg , the VP reward will be BoA . that way , the tanks can give the VP for their alts for upgrades . and since they can que much faster as tanks than DPS they will choose to tank instead of waiting in line as a DPS on their alt .

    the amount of VP they can have is limited to 7X the number of lvl 85 alts they have . that way more tanks will tank PuGs because they can upgrade their alts in shorter time(s) and also , when those alts will actually start tp play they will be geared enough to suck less .

    you can also use the system for all classes so DPS mains could upgrade their tank alts ,therfore making more geared tanks (which again will benefit from shoeter ques)

    what do you think ?
    Playing one character to gear another is bad. Blizzard have stated before that they don't like this sort of thing.
  1. Sageth's Avatar
    I feel like most DPS specs / classes are missing the point. Sure tanks / healers will get some extra gold and a tiny chance at an (probably easy to farm) mount. But you make it sound like the DPS gets nothing. DPS classes / specs get the best deal out of this, shorter queue times. Just imagine getting half the queue times, or perhaps even faster. I'd like that a lot more as a tiny chance for a mount you can get elsewhere too.
  1. Mortur's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by l4808 View Post
    Lol, with an addon like tidyplates tanking a heroic is piss easy... just mash some abilities to keep aggro and taunt those who attack somebody else... raiding wise, tanking is more stressful, but come on.. heroics? it's like a trip to the ballroom on MC Donalds
    This is the type of DPS player that has caused 45 minute queue times...

    And rightfully so... Why would I want to tank or heal for someone who thinks I am just standing there facerolling and benefiting from their hard work?
  1. Szemere's Avatar
    Posted this rant on official EU post as well, discuss my counter idea which i mention halfway please.

    QUOTING MY ORIGINAL POST:
    First of all, as it is not allowed to make new threads on this, you better take feedback in this way, because this forum post should have been on April 1st. I TOTALLY disagree with this new mechanic, and wish it never makes it to live servers. Really, this is the most unfair mechanic to anyone with either of the 4 "pure" DPS classes in the game as main/favorite character. There are people, who have been farming these mounts you mentioned forever, and now you intend to just randomly give them away to mostly tanks, or sometimes healers, that que for random heroics. 2 out of 3 mounts come from instances, which you can only do once a day, and are not super easy at all to solo. All of the 3 mounts are having a super low droprate, and are a great achievement to finally get. And now it goes to random tanks or sometimes healers, that join the que anyways. It is not like anyone has a fair chance at getting it by doing something they otherwise would not, like fishing dailys for rare items from the rewards bag, but it goes to those tanks and/healers that join the que solo, to go with complete randoms? It is not even encouraging people to find a guild, and be social and get to know people from your realm, and do stuff together, and get better, because running with randoms gives you that anonymous problem, that you can be as bad as you want, without any social pressure to get better.
    This brings me to my second point, and counter-idea: This silly idea will not attract the skilled tanks and healers that would normally que with guildies to que solo, (unless the rare item droprate is ridiculously high, which would make it even more unfair towards dps'ers) because in about 50% of the times (depending on time of day) it can be an absolutely AGONIZING group. All the people you come together with will most likely be solo queing, and there is only 2 kinds of people who solo que: the ones who play agonizingly bad and for that reason cant get any friends to que with him, or the person that for some reason has no people online he would otherwise que with, so he for a change uses the dungeon finder system. Instead of trying to give the rarely selected roles another (unfair towards DPS) reason to join, you should rather make it so that the group of people with the first reason (agonizingly bad playstyles) are easier to deal with. We are talking about heroics here, if someone is not up for this, MAKE IT EASIER TO KICK THEM, instead of forcing people to play together with total scrubs for about 15 minutes. At the moment, you can't kick people too often, or your time before you can kick simple people skyrockets. There will always be people abusing this votekick system, with kicking for stupid reasons, but to make PuGs better, give the members a normal chance to kick people who don't know how to not stand in fire, and even FORCE PEOPLE TO ENTER A REASON FOR THE VOTEKICK, SO THE KICKED PERSON KNOWS WHY. Some people just can't adjust to the difficulty, but having to cope with bad persons for long periods of times, (which get increasingly LONGER if you vote kick more OFTEN, and joining PuGs more often INCREASES THE NEED TO VOTEKICK)
    You say you want tanks and healers to join the que and PuG for the DPS to get a group faster, but the current vote kick system encourages pre-grouping, because votekicking non-pregrouped members penalizes you for that, while for a certain group of players, this is NEEDED (cuz they just dont know how to play).
    By making it less agonizing to que for randoms, you will be attracting way more tanks and healers, than by waving with shiny's, and thus giving an unfair advantage to those people that feel attracted to it.
    (Less shinys = more fair system = more failing system, more shinys = completely unfair system = yeah it might work, but won't make the dungeon run itself any better.)

    PLEASE: read the entire thing, and reflect on this idea, PLEASE. The idea itself is unfair, but what I just wrote down is one of the few better ideas, which is not unfair, only to the bad players who like to whine how everything is too hard. And those can be of any class, not just the "pures".
  1. leorana's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by ExordiusExNihilo View Post
    I only think this is slightly unfair. Not because tanks or healers get more, but because this will encourage more failure. There will be more people rolling fail tanks, thus we get less queue time and half the time it being fail groups (hyperbolic). This in turn makes dungeons longer. At least the longer queue time isn't like playing Russian Roulette.

    Another flaw, is this system does nothing for getting good DPS back into the pool. We all have had those failure DPS who only can do 4-5K in a cataclysm heroic. This system needs to be based on numbers... i.e. TPS, DPS, HPS (just as example) it must be something objective.

    Any system that awards people for failure is a flawed system.
    frustrated DPS allready rolling tanks , which as newbies mostly fail . howevr , it does add to the tanks numbers and those tanks get better as they get more experianced . it will increase the numbers of ALL tanks , including fails , but not only fails .

    also , as you mentioned , you can be a fail player in any class and role .

    as for your number based method..which numbers will we rely on ? skada ? recount ? because I get different numbers on each every heroic/raid . I'm not even talking about getting dif numbers using the same roataion , on same Raider's dummy 1 min after I measured it the first time .

    beside , will LFD will make us take ranking tests now ? what about the catch 22 for not being to obtein better gear by dungeons for not getting into one ?

    where I come from we have a saying : whoever isn't doing - can't fail . this also goes for blizz ,that goes through alot of efforts to address the ingame difficulties even if those aren't working in some cases.
  1. Anowyn's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by l4808 View Post
    I want this fucking goodie bag on my main, a hunter :S My participation in a random heroic group should be rewarded as well...
    Providing the group with a dps in 372/359 gear, isn't that worth a fucking goodie bag???
    No, it's not. Not unless the DPS role is under represented at the time. The whole idea for this is to make dungeon queues faster for everyone, by getting the roles that are not queueing to queue. While DPS classes are far more numerous, you also have tons of classes with tank specs that refuse, or never bother to even try tanking. The same can happen for healing. For some reason, if a class has a dps spec, people seem to like gravitating toward it. This should give them a reason to try tanking and healing specs out. Other people do not play any characters other than DPS only. This should also encourage them to try something new.

    What I think would be awesome though, is if they made the goodie bag BoA, since it doesn't contain gear (thus you are not GEARING one character by playing another, simply getting vanity items). That way someone who wants a main as a mage or a rogue, for example, could play a tanking class alt to help others get faster queues and give the bag to his or her main.
  1. Eisaderfrau's Avatar
    I... fail to see why everyone is so pissed by this change. DPS has been COMPLAINING and COMPLAINING about queue times forever now. The ONLY way you will get tanks to WANT to queue for more heroics is to reward them. Humans are not benevolent, caring people when relating to random other people. I have a 85 tank, healer, and a couple DPS. I really don't give a crap about tanking for a random pug group EVER. This will make me actually tank the occasional heroic using LFG rather then a full guild run.

    Understand something here... this is NOT a reward for "group hug heroic participation time." You get no reward for being the over-represented member of the community. You can't just have your cake and eat it too. If you currently play a DPS and are mortally offended by the fact that you don't get your pony AND shorter queue times, grow up. OH.. and I will laugh so hard the first time I see DPS on call to arms. It will happen. Could even be the first day as everyone duel specs to tank or healer.

    There is also the issue of "but now we get a bunch of crappy tanks!"..... you may get SOME crappy tanks that just respeced for the rewards. Then there are tanks like mine, full 4pT11, all epics, who really don't care about heroics at all and don't do any. If we do, it is with our guildies. Bringing some raid tanks back into the heroic market, even if it means they GET A VERY SMALL CHANCE AT A PET OR MOUNT THAT IS 2 YEARS OLD OR MORE, is a good thing. Heaven forbid people get a small chance at an already-grindable mount or pet just to make the entire community's queue times shorter. How dare Blizzard trivialize pets and mounts that have been trivial for 2 years? (This is sarcasm for those that missed it).

    If I DPS or heal a random and the tank gets call to arms and gets free stuff I didn't, good for him. I will be all like "hey! you get a mount?". What do I care? It is nothing that changes the game. it isn't gear. Its ... A PET.... OR A MOUNT. Grats to him.
  1. leorana's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Renowned View Post
    Playing one character to gear another is bad. Blizzard have stated before that they don't like this sort of thing.
    yet , this is a fact . how many times a maxed toon farmed mats/gear/dungeons/sent gold to a low lvl alt to speed up its lvlung/gearing ? also , if that's the case - why was heirlooms we're invented ?

    I see no principal differance between gearing through BoA gear gained by jp or guild perks to gaining it through VP (gained by my suggestion) . not to mention SOME VP items are BoE and can be used to gear up alts .

    blizz also said flying won't be able in azeroth and yet we can .
  1. Renowned's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by leorana View Post
    yet , this is a fact . how many times a maxed toon farmed mats/gear/dungeons/sent gold to a low lvl alt to speed up its lvlung/gearing ? also , if that's the case - why was heirlooms we're invented ?

    I see no principal differance between gearing through BoA gear gained by jp or guild perks to gaining it through VP (gained by my suggestion) . not to mention SOME VP items are BoE and can be used to gear up alts .

    blizz also said flying won't be able in azeroth and yet we can .
    Completely different. Farming mats and sending gold is not gear, farming gear/dungeons is called twinking and the player receiving the gear has to be present, heirlooms are for leveling. You can't completely gear a player in endgame gear without playing it, Blizzard have said (and you would remember this if you read MMO-C reguarly) they don't like this.

    If the system as stated currently isn't enough to bring in enough tanks, I wouldn't be surprised to see Blizzard make the bag BoA, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for BoA Valor Points.
  1. leorana's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Renowned View Post
    Completely different. Farming mats and sending gold is not gear, farming gear/dungeons is called twinking and the player receiving the gear has to be present, heirlooms are for leveling. You can't completely gear a player in endgame gear without playing it, Blizzard have said (and you would remember this if you read MMO-C reguarly) they don't like this.
    I read mmo-c , but mostly the things that concerns me directly . up until cata I had no need for a different toon (tank) so I admit not reading on gearing an alt policy .

    that beeing said , explain to me how buying the VP boots by your main and giving it to your alt is not the same as gearing one alt by playing another ? or using guild perks/JP gained on alt to buy heirlooms to gear said alt ?

    also , aren't there any BoE gear in dungoens to farm ? or simply buying BoE at the AH ? do does alt worked hard for their money or did their main just easily farmed it for them ?

    not too different imao.

    don't get me wrong . I'm not against you . there is a problem with the waiting times and I just made a suggestion I think might solve this . I find it hard to believe that tanks will start LFD just for some gold/flask/pet they can obtein in a more convenient matter on themselves and at, VP are the most desirable thing at the game other than ilvl 372 raiding gear that must (and should) be obtained by raiding only .

    I'm not holding my breath for that change . I just think it's a good idea . it will also make the community as a whole to narrow the gap between gear obteining difficulty and current content difficulty , lessen the grinds and save time to everyone. if blizz can find a way to short the waiting times without needing to bribe anyone I'm all for it but atm I just don't see it happening .
  1. Renowned's Avatar
    Just going to say again that heirlooms, from whatever source, are purely for leveling and are not considered endgame items. You can buy all epic BoEs you want from the AH (or craft/farm them yourself [can't really farm a BoE epic, they're either random world drops or they drop in raids and will either be used by somebody present or sold for guild funds]), but there generally aren't enough slots to complete a character. If you want to completely gear a character, you have to actually play it. That's the way it should be. This isn't Blizzard trying to punish people, it's because if you ever got to the point where you thought "I feel like gearing my warlock up, let's hop on my tank and get him some VP" it would be stupid. Play the toon you want to gear.

    The main reason people think that sort of thing now is because their tank has shorter queues and they can't stand gearing another toon through 30-45 minute waits. So rather than make it so you can gear the toon by playing your tank, they're trying to just lower the wait times on DPS queues.

    Edit: Just did a very basic simulation of queue times.

    Assume everybody queues solo
    Assume a player joining the queue is a tank with probability p_t
    Assume a player joining the queue is a healer with probability p_h
    Assume a player joining the queue is a DPS with probability 1 - p_t - p_h
    Assume players join at a constant rate, with one unit of time between each arrival
    Assume that nobody leaves the queue early because of the length of the queue

    The entries given are the total wait times for all roles.

    Code:
                                                  p_h
         p_t|    0.05     0.1    0.15     0.2    0.25     0.3    0.35     0.4    0.45
    --------+------------------------------------------------------------------------
        0.05|      78      78      77      77      77      77      77      77      77
         0.1|      77      52      51      51      52      52      51      51      52
        0.15|      77      52      26      26      25      26      26      26      34
         0.2|      78      51      24       1       8      16      25      35      43
        0.25|      77      51      26       8      17      25      35      43      51
         0.3|      78      51      26      17      25      34      43      52      60
        0.35|      77      52      26      25      34      43      51      60      69
         0.4|      77      51      26      34      43      52      60      69      77
        0.45|      77      51      34      42      51      60      69      77      86
    I scaled the numbers so that the entry for p_t = 0.2, p_h = 0.2 would be 1 (this is the optimal ratio, 1/5 tanks, 1/5 healers, 3/5 DPS). Obviously these aren't 100% accurate (note: they aren't measured in minutes, they're measured in some arbitrary unit of time and have been scaled) but they do show that even a small increase in the number of tanks will lower queue times.
  1. bloodwine77's Avatar
    Honestly, it should just be called, "Dungeon Finder: Call to Tank". Will there ever be a situation where another role is underrepresented? Maybe once in a blue moon it'll be the healer role, but even that is doubtful.
  1. The High Druid's Avatar
    My suggestion to all the DPS complaining about this: Spend your 40 minute queue times farming the dungeons for the mounts.
  1. leorana's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Renowned View Post
    Just going to say again that heirlooms, from whatever source, are purely for leveling and are not considered endgame items. You can buy all epic BoEs you want from the AH (or craft/farm them yourself [can't really farm a BoE epic, they're either random world drops or they drop in raids and will either be used by somebody present or sold for guild funds]), but there generally aren't enough slots to complete a character. If you want to completely gear a character, you have to actually play it. That's the way it should be. This isn't Blizzard trying to punish people, it's because if you ever got to the point where you thought "I feel like gearing my warlock up, let's hop on my tank and get him some VP" it would be stupid. Play the toon you want to gear.

    The main reason people think that sort of thing now is because their tank has shorter queues and they can't stand gearing another toon through 30-45 minute waits. So rather than make it so you can gear the toon by playing your tank, they're trying to just lower the wait times on DPS queues.
    the toon I would like to gear waits min 45m every day in line . add that to a week , a month or a year .

    also , considering tier sets contain 5 pieces , you can be sure there are more than 5 BoE (probably more) ilvl 359 . not to mention pueple epics are indeed farmable ("LFM BOT trash) .

    warlocks alone can obtain :

    belt and pants from crafting .
    wrist,necklace,ring(s),wand,off-hand and a trinket - all from AH

    that's 8 gear slots right there . MORE than tier pieces without even stepping a foot in a heroic . so at least this argument isn't valid .

    either way this is not the subject . it's not about if blizz is for or against gearing alts throgh their mains (which is a given fact - it happenss regadless to blizz) . it's about shortening the waiting times while not giving special preveliges( hope I spelled that one right) to certain class/roles and denying them from others .
  1. SpartanJet's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascen View Post
    I dislike the fact that 'pure' DPS are discriminated against, however I do see the idea Blizzare are putting across.

    If all could get the rewards, on a VERY low drop rate, but give whichever role is on Call To arms a higher chance then I don't see the problem. Just as long as there's enough incentive to join but not enough to make the loot quickly farmed. Would be better to see this approach rather than locking some classes out of the rewards entirely.
    Seriously this is why I don't tank for pugs anymore. This is the mentality I have to deal with with these DPS types thinking they are important. DPSing is EASY, thats why even tanks que as DPS because they don't want to do the extra work for zero reward. Mind you these rewards still aren't enough to get me to tank in a pug. If they want me to tank they will have to add some purple BoE dungeon loots or else its no deal. What the hell do I do with mounts that have zero speed increase I already have 100 of those I never use, and don't even get me started on non combat pets...

    How the hell is giving EVERYONE a chance at the reward going to help the situation of long que times? I know DPSers don't have to use a brain cell for their job but seriously if anything it will cause more people to que; given there are more dps classes than tanking classes chances are pretty good this will lead to even more dps in the que which leads to LONGER que times. How the hell will this solve the long que times for dps exactly? Please explain your logic I have to hear this.

    I seriously think these DPSers wouldn't be happy unless Blizzard forces anyone with a tank spec to que as tanks without any type of reward. As a tank I'd really prefer they address the real issue: DPS is about as hard as watching paint dry and they have almost no in group responsibility unlike tanks and healers. I don't know how you solve that problem (it isn't through making rotations more complex they need some group responsibilities ) but the solution of rewarding the least represented roles is just a band aid on top of a festering wound.

Site Navigation