MMO-Champion - Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking
Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Q: Vengeance is a great tool to help raid tanks hold aggro over DPS, but in 5-man heroics it doesn't stack high enough to keep up with the threat generated by overgeared DPS burst damage. Are there any plans to address this? Are there any plans to help warriors put out more initial threat before Vengeance has been ramped up? – Nikelsndimes (NA), Cémanana (EU-FR), Arthur (TW), Mancake (NA), Migol (NA)

A: We think Vengeance works well overall. It provides sufficient threat without causing the tank to do more DPS than the dedicated DPS characters, and doesn’t let the tank just neglect abilities that cause threat. A full stack of Vengeance probably provides too much threat, but we didn’t think it was necessary to nerf that mid-expansion. Overall, we don’t want tanks to have 100% guaranteed threat on a pull, so we don’t want to buff that aspect of Vengeance, but we also don’t want DPS specs to constantly have to throttle the DPS they can deliver midway through a fight, so we have to strike a balance.

Note: There are fights with tank swaps or incoming adds, or similar mechanics, when threat may matter mid-fight. This is intended – encounter design varies widely.


Q: Have you considered normalizing initial Rage for feral druid tanks? For example, when a warrior uses Charge, it generates 15 points of Rage, which lets them use another aggro generating ability quickly, something that Feral druids tend to be a bit short on. Why in Cataclysm was the bear bonus health pool was reduced, as well? Their survivability always depended on the amount of health since they don’t have parry or shield block. Do you have any plans to improve bear tanking in the future? At the moment, it’s considered to be the weakest tank. Have you considered giving druid tanks an additional tool to pull casters at range? It’s the only tank class that doesn’t have a talent or spell to help in those situations. – Pødêrøsø (LA), Вирко (EU-RU), Амелья (EU-RU), Condenacion (EU-ES), Whitewnd (KR)

A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we’re retuning their damage such that it’s a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don’t expect the community to ever agree on anything, we’ve seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are “the weakest tank.” There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.


Q: What are your intentions with each tank's mastery and mastery in general? – Migol (NA)

A: Mastery is intended to be a defensive stat for tanks. We want it to be at least in the same ballpark of value per rating as avoidance. To go into a bit more depth on each tank:

Death Knights: We’re pretty happy with how mastery has turned out. It does have the oddity that it scales down in value with your mitigation, but also up in value with your health. But it does indeed scale up pretty smoothly in value, and doesn’t have any unintuitive breakpoints or anything, so we’re happy with it.

Druids: We’re pretty happy with how mastery has turned out. It scales well, doesn’t have any unintuitive or unfortunate interactions with other stats, and provides solid performance value.

Paladins: Mastery is an attractive stat for paladins, but has some design problems. It scales very well, but due to the nature of our combat tables (and being able to “fill them up”), you can get “block capped,” which is a massive performance benefit. Worse, Protection mastery scales with itself, since there are no diminishing returns on block chance, and the amount of rating you need to block cap goes down as your dodge and parry improve, allowing you to put even more of your stats into dodge or parry. This sort of feedback loop is something we always try to stay away from, so we plan to change this in the future. We tried several alternatives for 4.2, but weren’t happy with the results. Any change which made mastery weaker (such as subjecting block to diminishing returns or changing what it does) would have required mitigation compensation for paladins elsewhere (with all the design risks inherent in making such changes), as well as asking many players to extensively re-gem or re-forge. We’ll ask players to do that when the need is great, but we didn’t think this problem crossed that line. The major risks are that Protection paladins become too powerful or too weak or that gear with mastery will at some point be rejected once characters are over the cap. We don’t think any of those problems will manifest themselves in the 4.2 content.

Warriors: Warriors’ mastery is in a similar boat as paladins’, except that it still provides a notable benefit past the cap and scales much slower, making it much more difficult to “block cap.” That delays, but doesn’t remove the problem.


Q: Will we see a tanking Legendary sometime soon? – Pedoso (NA)

A: The tanking community both loves and hates when this question comes up, but it received a lot of votes, so we’ll answer it. The answer is not soon, but probably eventually. The problem with tanking legendaries, of course, is that the shield-users and non-shield-users tank with different weapons. That’s not a deal breaker, but it is a consideration. We could allow the legendary to be transformed from a one-hander to two-hander or we could just design an item for a more narrow audience (such as a shield). The 4.2 legendary has fairly wide appeal, and the 4.3 legendary will have much more narrow appeal. We don’t want to fall into the trap of making legendaries too formulaic.


Q: Are there any plans to teach players in-game how to tank when they are at an early stage, or at least at some point in the leveling process? – Romner (EU-EN)

A: A system to teach players how we intend for them to perform their roles is something we realize we’re lacking. We have some pretty cool plans to help solve this problem in the future, but we’re not quite ready to make any announcements, and Ask the Devs just wouldn’t be the appropriate venue anyway.


Q: Do you plan to bring other tanks to the same level as Death Knights who have a lot of advantages over other tanking classes (easier to heal, quite a number of various safe abilities, etc.)? - Меланори (EU-RU)

A: Death knights are a somewhat different style of tank compared to the others. They take significantly more damage than other tanks, but then heal/shield that extra damage back instead (and sometimes more). Due to taking more damage, and that damage coming in spikes, they’re also the most likely to die to unexpected burst (such as when they don’t have runes up to Death Strike, have no cooldowns available, and fail to dodge or parry a few attacks in a row. They also have more personal impact on their own survivability and mitigation than any other tank, by tying much of their performance to Death Strike (and especially optimally timing their Death Strikes). So in the hands of a really skilled player, they can do some amazing things, but not usually much better than the other tanks. We’d actually like to head more in that direction with the other tanks (making them tie more of their defensive performance to their ability usage), in the future.


Q: Is there any chance that we can see damage reduction numbers being used in the statistic UI, just like shield absorb amount of Discipline priest? – 首領先生 (TW)

A: The default UI should show the damage reduction from armor against a creature of equal level. We’ll look into also showing the damage reduction against a +1, +2, +3/boss-level mob, like we do for hit or expertise. Beyond that, there is typically passive damage reduction from talents/stance/presence/etc., which should be relatively easy to combine with armor to find your damage reduction.


Q: Have you ever considered adjusting DPS HP? Seems that while their large pools of health help them on "accidental" situations, a fair portion of the time they can take aggro and tank adds without consequence. – Jainel (LA)

A: We’re generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.


Q: As far as I remember, about five tanks were required in a 25-man group in Burning Crusade. However, the number of tanks in raids has been decreased to one or two since WotLK. I think this is one of the reasons heroic parties suffer from lack of tanks. What if raids have required more tanks? – 명장한니발 (KR)

A: We don’t actually recall many four+ tank fights in Burning Crusade, and that includes fights like High King Maulgar where non-tanks could perform the tanking role. While we do find some elegance in a design where a 5-player group scales perfectly up to a 10 and 25-player group, that introduces some problems as well. It could potentially extend the tank shortage we see in 5-player dungeons up to raids (to be fair, it’s also possible needing more tanks for raiding would create more tanks for dungeons). A larger problem is that we just don’t want to over-constrain encounter design to always require 4 or 5 tanks. Sometimes it’s nice to have a fight that’s just a single bruiser without requiring a tank swap or meteor-style cleave. Nearly every raid fight in Cataclysm asks for two tank-specced characters, with a few requiring one or three. That’s likely the model we will continue to use. If we wanted to do a fight with many tanks, we’d likely let some of the DPS specs step in.


Q:Are there any plans to update the leg armor in 4.2 now that the plate tanks receive no dodge from agility? Maybe introduce a new leg armor patch that adds str/stamina, or a mastery/stamina? – Dariok (NA), Fredik (EU-ES)

A: We did. As you’ve probably seen by now, it’s called Drakehide Leg Armor, and it provides Stamina and dodge rating.


Q: Can you make it so that taunt doesn't miss, just like you did for interrupt abilities? Doesn't feel as though it would be a complete upset to overall balance. – Madmartygan (LA)

A: Yes, absolutely! And in fact we did it back in patch 3.9. Tank classes’ taunts have been unable to miss since then. We recognize that tanks will nearly always choose mitigation stats over threat stats and it’s particularly frustrating to have to reach a hit cap just to make sure taunts or interrupts don’t miss, which is why we no longer require that.


Q: Are there any plans to simplify the impossible situation for tanks (8% hit rating, 26 Expertise but all defensive stats at max at the same time) somehow, either through stats on gear or through changes to the game mechanics? Have you considered giving tools to tanks to allow easier capping of hit and expertise to help with threat management? – Sunyara (EU-DE), Gilbey (EU-ES)

A: We don’t currently balance around the assumption that tanks cap hit or expertise. We’re definitely looking at ways to make reliably hitting more attractive to tanks in the future, though. Currently, missing is just a compound to the issue discussed in Question #1. Getting tanks to care about threat stats, not for the threat benefit (but for a mitigation benefit), is one potential direction. For example, DKs want to make sure their Death Strikes hit because of the mitigation benefit. Druids care about crit because of Savage Defense. We speculated at one point that we could make Shield Block (and now Holy Shield) require a successful hit to do their jobs. We’re not sure we will go that direction, but it’s one idea. We would of course compensate tanks for any potential loss of predictable mitigation.


Q: Compared to DKs, Paladins are weaker when facing mass magic attacks. A Paladin has no choice but to stack stamina in this situation. Is there any change coming to this for Paladins? – 新垣綾瀨 (TW)

A: We don’t balance tanks around their sustained magic damage reduction, since we don’t typically assault tanks with continuous magic damage. We do frequently intersperse physical damage with a burst of magic damage, usually timed around the cooldowns that all tanks have available, and find that that is balanced. If we ever did a fight like Hydross again where there is almost no physical damage, we’d have to explore some other options.


Q: At the moment, tanks need to use addons to see threat levels and clearly see which mobs they have aggro with. With all the recent changes and updates being made to the UI, are there any plans to make seeing threat levels and aggro easier and clearer? – Castan (EU-EN)

A: We’d definitely like to build threat into the UI more, especially for tanks and for multiple targets. We try to keep our default UI relatively unobtrusive so that players can see the actual battlefield, but we realize this design goal can come into conflict with players’ need or desire to have copious amounts of information displayed. Finding the right compromise is something we wrestle with constantly and one reason why our UI changes tend to come more slowly than, say, class design changes.


Q: Protection Paladin is not only the most desired tank because survival abilities for groups and various utilities, but players also generally consider Paladins as an indispensable Class in raids. I know all tanking Classes are being equalized constantly, but survival abilities of Protection Paladins give huge advantages compared to other tanking Classes. Can we expect that other Tanking classes will see more survival abilities for groups in terms of equity? – 디아소르테 (KR)

A: Like druids, paladins have the enormous benefit of being able to fill all three roles in a group. Paladins also retain a wide variety of buff and utility abilities from vanilla when they (and shaman) were more of a support class that was intended to have low individual throughput but made other classes in the group shine. We have been slowly moving away from that design in our effort to avoid class stacking and support the “bring the player, not the class” philosophy, but it’s hard to move quickly on changes like this. (As one small example, we briefly removed Lay on Hands during Cataclysm development, and there was an outcry even from within the team.) Because they can fill many roles and still provide a lot of utility, it’s not surprising that you see a lot of druids and paladins in your raid groups. We’ve tried very hard to not make any particular tank class mandatory, and we feel we’ve been pretty successful in Cataclysm. So far we haven’t seen an encounter like Sartharion or Anub’arak where a certain tank class was perceived, probably accurately, as necessary for progression.

Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin’s Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior’s mobility or a bear druid’s ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter. They are fundamentally different abilities that have greater or less utility depending on the encounter and your individual raid comp. We don’t want to just hand out a Divine Guardian equivalent to every tank class, just like we don’t think warriors or paladins need the ability to battle rez. It’s a fine line to walk. Homogenization really rankles some players (as it should), but being unable to tank (or heal, or DPS) an encounter because of lack of tools is equally unacceptable to many players.


Q: Is there any plan to add a new tank class in the future? I think spell breaker in the Warcraft III is an awesome choice for that! – 聖淇淋 (TW)

A: We’ll add new classes when the time is right. We don’t see WoW as a game that can support unlimited different class types (and the different talent specs almost behave as full classes these days!), so we want to be judicious about when we add classes. One of the challenges with tanks (and other roles) especially, is this: on the one hand, there is a core set of abilities that any tank needs in order to perform their job, especially in a 5-player dungeon where you can’t rely on other players in the same role to help cover your deficiencies. On the other hand, having so many similar abilities (e.g. a taunt, a short cooldown, an efficient heal) necessitates a certain amount of homogeneity among those classes. But what players (and designers!) really want in a new class is something exciting that no one has seen before. Adding another class that tanked just like a warrior wouldn’t add much to the game – it wouldn’t drive many new tanks or encourage a veteran tank to try a different tanking class. On the other hand, adding the death knight, who tanks relatively differently (though some players might argue still not differently enough) was an enormous challenge and the kind of thing we continue to tweak over time.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Ask The Devs #9 - Tanking started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 132 Comments
  1. anyaka21's Avatar
    The only 2 things that jumped out at me:

    Q: Have you considered normalizing initial Rage for feral druid tanks? For example, when a warrior uses Charge, it generates 15 points of Rage, which lets them use another aggro generating ability quickly, something that Feral druids tend to be a bit short on. Why in Cataclysm was the bear bonus health pool was reduced, as well? Their survivability always depended on the amount of health since they don’t have parry or shield block. Do you have any plans to improve bear tanking in the future? At the moment, it’s considered to be the weakest tank. Have you considered giving druid tanks an additional tool to pull casters at range? It’s the only tank class that doesn’t have a talent or spell to help in those situations. – Pødêrøsø (LA), Вирко (EU-RU), Амелья (EU-RU), Condenacion (EU-ES), Whitewnd (KR)

    A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we’re retuning their damage such that it’s a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don’t expect the community to ever agree on anything, we’ve seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are “the weakest tank.” There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.
    If there was nothing wrong with bear tanking and there were "plenty of druid tanks" then why are they getting a buff? .... because they needed it and while there were some, it was kind of a "we don't have a choice" for a raid team.


    Q: Are there any plans to teach players in-game how to tank when they are at an early stage, or at least at some point in the leveling process? – Romner (EU-EN)

    A: A system to teach players how we intend for them to perform their roles is something we realize we’re lacking. We have some pretty cool plans to help solve this problem in the future, but we’re not quite ready to make any announcements, and Ask the Devs just wouldn’t be the appropriate venue anyway.
    I've said all along that something needs (needed) to be done about heroics and who we let into a heroic and that they are competent to do the task at hand. Some kind of check beyond a gear check is needed for this. Something along the way, call it attunement for tanks, dps and heals, that says they are capable of doing heroics, be that the ability to dodge fire, interrupt, heal multiple targets, etc... I really hope Blizzard is thinking along these lines.
  1. Velkahn's Avatar
    The new legendary will be an item thats fit in (relic / ranged slot) that will give you some (tanking) stats, when you equip the item, it will merge with your current weapon (no matter what weapon is, when using the item will change your current weapon of legendary weapon design) when you use it will transform your (2h/shield) in a legendary item that will give you more stats (depending on your class) the design of the item will depend on your class style (proteccion paladins, proteccion warriors, blood deathknights, feral druids [bear]).
    (This effect can be enabled or disabled at will, just by pressing the item)

    When you dodge / parry you have a chance to increase your stamina by 20% and you will get a visual effect for the next 10 secs:

    Warriors: (glow: steel like energy) your shield increase their size and glow, and you will shield on two nearby allies absorbing 10% of the damage and threat they get for the next 6 secs.

    Paladins: (glow: gold/light energy) your shield increase their size and glow, and you will bubble on two nearby allies absorbing 10% of the damage and threat they get for the next 6 secs.

    Druid: (glow: green like nature energy) your bear form will increase its size by 20% and you will cast healing roots on two nearby allies absorbing 10% of the damage and threat they get for the next 6 secs.

    Deathknight: (glow: blood like energy) Your weapon will increase in size and glow and when you hit your target will leave a trail of blood (like a cut in the air) you will cast blood of heroes on two nearby allies absorbing 10% of the damage and threat they get for the next 6 secs.

    The initial quest is to make the "base item"(relic / ranged slots), you have to travel around Azeroth in search of components to achieve this, a random boss will give you the legendary item that may be merged with your "base item"
  1. TheEaterofSouls's Avatar
    Im sure people will make threads about this.....Always happens.
  1. Nosferato's Avatar
    narrow, agi item for sure, as they are next in line with tanks hopefully thye will make it a quest chain so that you can get 3 items for the 4 specs, staff, 1hand axe, and dagger, but if they want to really narrow it down lets hope fir the first dagger, behold the dagger that poked deathwing in the eye blinded him and he crashed into abyssal maw, where neptulon drowned him.
  1. Findme's Avatar
    nothing much to say
  1. ez100's Avatar
    "Overall, we don’t want tanks to have 100% guaranteed threat on a pull, so we don’t want to buff that aspect of Vengeance, but we also don’t want DPS specs to constantly have to throttle the DPS they can deliver midway through a fight, so we have to strike a balance."

    The balance being? that dps always have threat? lololol and they wonder why tanks dont que.
  1. Vasz's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Freese View Post
    Not sure if you heard the news, but 4.2 is about to hit with new content.
    WOW REALLY?! So the five months farming Nef have all be worth it .... or not. I mean ANYONE that's raided in the last 7 months, the new rep gear is total crap, I mean UTTER CRAP.
  1. Cudy's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Turaz View Post
    You shouldn't always be able to hold aggro for every situation, when you do that the game does not become interesting and you might as well have a robot play the game if you worry about 5 man trash that way.
    You should if you are good, telling dps to wait, or having tricks of the trade do it for you isn't compelling gameplay imho, not for the dpsers or the tank.

    What we have now is just an obfuscated and gimiky version of the 3 sunders rule from vanilla that most tanks seemed to require.

    I was always bettter than that somehow to the point that my dpsers have always had the ability to repop pots and go balls out on the pull... in cata as gear has increased in our raids I'm less and less able to allow that, even with tricks... while it is possible I'm getting worse at slamming my hand on the keyboard like a hungry chimp, I kind of doubt that.

    ...by no means is the current gameplay necessarilly "wrong" just because I don't like it, but it would be nice to have had some output from the devs on the design.

    I'd rather have to worry about threat the whole fight than the current model where we have no chance to hold it at first, and no ability to lose it after that.
  1. Cirque's Avatar
    I'd rather have to worry about threat the whole fight than the current model where we have no chance to hold it at first, and no ability to lose it after that.
    This and this again. In the current high end content, this is, simply, exactly what tanking is. Punishing and annoying for the first 20 seconds, nothing really interesting after. I really have to disagree with this whole Vengeance model and it clearly hasn't worked out as it should have, namely, making threat scale with everyone's gear while it still matters somewhat.

    That said, the damage some tanks manage to do, especially on AOE, is beyond stupid, to say the least. It's also not something, when I tank, I'm personally interested in. I much rather do a good job tanking and feel satisfied after than having to feel I'm just hammering my keys and popping a CD when DBM yells breath at me - that is, after the panic of the pull.
  1. mtawney1313's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Therec View Post
    Pretty much, and why on earth did they pick the two questions from completely uninformed people. Yes taunts no longer miss and if they do it was either b/c you're bad and hit the wrong button or the other tank didn't stop attacking and reaggroed. Also the 5 tank setup was using a few dps as tanks, any 25 man that brought 5 true tanks to help beat the boss was doing it wrong.
    Because they are answering the highest voted questions. That's the community's fault.
  1. arden714's Avatar
    Ugh, that basically confirms that 4.3 is Deathwings raid, and there won't be a tank legendary this expansion. How lame. That means that the legendary for 4.3 is either an agility 1h weapon or a stat stick for hunters/ferals. Yay on waiting over 8 years for tanks to finally get a legendary
  1. Omoidaseba's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by shoju View Post
    Another round of Softball. Easy / Bad questions without much in the way of meat and bones answers.

    Ty for addressing something like: Hey, can Dk's get an AoE taunt of some kind?
    Army of the undead.

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 12:17 AM ----------

    Can't even find the question about taunts missing on google... Then again I can't find the questions threat back. O well, maybe it was the least downrated not the end of the world...owait cataclysm..but still.
  1. buggerlugs's Avatar
    I cant believe they refered to their "bring the player, not the class" philosophy - that died years ago.
    Its bring the number, not the class or player now and has been for a long time
  1. Tikaru's Avatar
    Wow really, we waited for this crap?

    The Q&A seems to get worse each time it comes around. I mean come on, they wasted questions on the leg armor (read the f***ing patch notes people FFS...) and about taunts not being able to miss (did they just come back to the game or something, wtf?) was worth their time?!

    I'm starting to really consider going back to RIFT once patch 1.3 hits...
  1. burzum's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    The problem many players, and the person asking the question have, is that they don´t understand the purpose of vengeance. Vengeance never had anything to do with burst aggro. The solution in that case is to tell the dps to hold off for a few seconds. Vengeance was created for long fights at the end of a tier where the dps in BIS were being forced to throttle back dps for long periods of time because the tanks couldn´t keep threat because his BIS stuff was all about avoidance.

    I have a bear and a pro pally, I have no problems with either of them.

    I do think they were onto something regarding DKs. I think average tanks for all specs are fairly equal, but I think bad dks are much worse than bad players of other tank specs.
    THIS! Just tell your damn DPS to wait for 5 seconds. It really doesn't make your kill a wipe to enrage! And if ret or frost DK wants to burst from start, have someone BoSalvation them. And if you happen to miss first few hits and someone dies, accept it as a part of the game. Threat should NOT be guaranteed.

    I play a Pala tank with my Bear offtank. We have next to zero problem with pulls.
  1. Fijifriend0's Avatar
    I can understand the tanking legendary thing because now DKs tank with 2h while pally and warrior use 1h and druid uses agi (I know DK could use Shadowmourne). But, really that could just be fixed by branching out and making a trinket legendary or as someone suggested a relic type item. Personally I have gotten a little bored of the legendary always being a weapon I kind of want to see something else thats cool and using the right item slot/lore they could make a legendary that could be used for any role. To me it seems that yes the hunter/druid/rogue "agi group" seems the only group that haven't gotten a legendary yet(aside from the bow which was only hunter). More over I think they are intentionally picking some questions that are less than top-notch so that they give us some idea of what they plan to but still keep us guessing to keep us playing.

    As to teaching people to tank. Some sort of in game teaching should should be added. I like the idea of a mandatory type quest chain with maybe a remote controlled robot that has the standard tanking abilities to just show the basics.
  1. zshikara's Avatar
    I want to know when patch 3.9 came out. I don't exactly recall that happening before Cata. I remember patch 3.4, but not 3.9.
  1. Wolfie of Medivh's Avatar
    How about for the 4.3 legendary a AGL 2handed staff that turns with a right-click into two one-handed Maces - that way, it would be good for Hunters, Feral Druids, ENH Shaman and Rogues?

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 05:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasz View Post
    WOW REALLY?! So the five months farming Nef have all be worth it .... or not. I mean ANYONE that's raided in the last 7 months, the new rep gear is total crap, I mean UTTER CRAP.
    Well , A, it fills holes for people who are missing things still, and B, Yes. People who've raiding in the last 7 months will probably be - gasp - raiding! They'll have all the gear they need to go into Firelands.

    This is an idiotic complaint.

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 05:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by arden714 View Post
    Ugh, that basically confirms that 4.3 is Deathwings raid, and there won't be a tank legendary this expansion. How lame. That means that the legendary for 4.3 is either an agility 1h weapon or a stat stick for hunters/ferals. Yay on waiting over 8 years for tanks to finally get a legendary
    I don't see how the information we were given warrants that.

    Also, they may just be calling it 4.3 for the time being, meaning the next raid. They could choose to have an Legendary at each new raid level. Legendaries are fun, they're unique content, I can see why they'd like to do more, so long as they keep it special.

    ---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 05:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fijifriend0 View Post
    I can understand the tanking legendary thing because now DKs tank with 2h while pally and warrior use 1h and druid uses agi (I know DK could use Shadowmourne). But, really that could just be fixed by branching out and making a trinket legendary or as someone suggested a relic type item. Personally I have gotten a little bored of the legendary always being a weapon I kind of want to see something else thats cool and using the right item slot/lore they could make a legendary that could be used for any role. To me it seems that yes the hunter/druid/rogue "agi group" seems the only group that haven't gotten a legendary yet(aside from the bow which was only hunter).
    I seriously doubt that would happen. A legendary with no model is just a bunch of stats. I seriously doubt Blizz would ever do that. Since armor is so broken up, Weapons are the best slot for Legendaries.
  1. Insurgence's Avatar
    Awww, nothing about bringing warlock tanks back
  1. Azrile's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by huldu View Post
    Blizzard clearly do not use the LFD when leveling. Many tanks are struggling with threat in pulls of more than 2 monsters. The only way they *aren't* struggling is if they are overgeared, mostly through heirlooms. However tanks beside DK/Paladin will start to "struggle" with AE threat at 70+. This is mainly due the insane damage AE classes are starting to dish out. Especially warriors have a problem with the burst damage. The abilities just do not give enough threat the first 5-6 seconds of the fight. Who cares about raids? They work fine most of the time. It's the 5-man dungeons that are problems with tanks.

    The answers blizzard supplies to many of the topics were laughable. Seriously, did they even read what they wrote. The guy asked about 5-man dungeons and blizzard went on about raids. What a joke. Screw your shitty raids, i'm amazed you even consider that trash "raids". Hell, what surprise me even more is that you don't let people random raids across servers yet. 10 people... raid... serious roflcopter on that.

    <edit> Blizzard i hope you are aware that WoW will crash and burn the second something decent comes along? It'll be just like back in the days when WoW came around and all the rest just crumbled underneath. Now you are running that "shitty" mmo that people are tired of.
    And again.. read every discussion Blizzard ever had about vengeance. Vengeance was added ONLY for raiding... and more precisely for the END of tiers of RAIDING. In heroic 5 mans, and lower dungeons.... if a dps can pull aggro, it is because someone is not playing correctly. Either the tank isn´t marking targets, or the dps is AOEing too early. That is a PLAYER issue. The reason vengeance was introduced is because in previous expansions, at the end of a tier, the DPS had BIS gear, and the tanks BIS gear did not allow them to increase their threat enough to cover the huge increase in damage the dps were now doing. It was not a tank issue, and it was not a dps issue, and it sucked because many dps had to throttle back their damage for long periods of time, making their new BIS gear pretty useless.

    The biggest problem with 1-80 dungeons is heirlooms. It is nearly impossible to tank them because you always have someone doing insane damage.. but it really doesn´t matter since that dps can also tank and kill the mob also. It is sloppy gameplay, but it isn´t that huge of a deal. The problem with heroic 5mans now is that as we outgear them, we also get lazy. I am guilty of this myself. I rarely mark targets any more, so if a geared dps focuses on something that I am only hitting with swipe, yes he is going to pull. But it is not something vengeance should ever be able to fix because it means I will be doing insane amounts of damage (if my off-target aoe can keep threat from a geared dps´s focus fire, that means my overall dps is huge).

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