Firelands Raid 10 vs 25 Comparison, BlizzCon Site, European Bnet Invitational, Comics

Haha DLC... legend.

Also not surprised to see Paragon's conclusion leaning into that direction.

I'm just waiting 'til they release the entire book for free.

Before people read into the "10 MAN IZ EZ MOAD", DREAM Paragon made it a point to say that it was only easy if a 10-man raid has the player resources to switch out players for optimal specs/classes for certain fights. Hence why you'll find people on 10-man stuck on Beth'tilac because they have 2 paladin healers.

Some specs are just outright disadvantaged when it comes to a role in some of these fights, and some can just breeze through it, and a lot of 10-man raiding guilds simply do not have the people to switch out an Arcane Mage for a Hunter, or a Holy Paladin for a resto Druid. Hence, probably why there is a percieved lenient DPS curve for 10-man.

I wonder how long it will take before the Shamans arrive screaming angrily about not being represented in ANY of the fights.Too bad to be honest. I miss my Shaman. It's all about Divine Light nowadays.

10 man iz ez moad!!!!!

Originally Posted by greyghost

Before people read into the "10 MAN IZ EZ MOAD", DREAM Paragon made it a point to say that it was only easy if a 10-man raid has the player resources to switch out players for optimal specs/classes for certain fights. Hence why you'll find people on 10-man stuck on Beth'tilac because they have 2 paladin healers. Some specs are just outright disadvantaged when it comes to a role in some of these fights, and some can just breeze through it.

All of the above is true, plus the gear disparity. Even with the same gear between 10 and 25 -- between having more gear drops per person from each boss on 25, and being a world first progression guild, Paragon has a full complement of characters in full heroic T11 gear. So they have one of every spec in great gear, without having the "well-geared good player with 'wrong' spec vs. 'right' spec with less gear/experience" problem that a LOT of 10-man guilds I've seen have. And the average 10-man raid is going to have less gear due to less drops per player when they did 10-man T11, and the average raid period is going to have less gear than Paragon anyway.

TL;DR: Yeah, 10s are probably easier on the whole, but they're not a complete roflcaekwalk compared to 25s or anything. :P

Clarity is an extremely important part of modern game design, it's actually sorely lacking in a lot of games however it is something Blizzard is usually quite amazing at. That said, strict game design and mass player environments rarely mix for any reason outside of novelty, which is clearly not good for something you're trying to tightly tune.

I wouldn't be surprised to see 25-mans folded in the future, as they have quite low participation and design issues keep stacking, however Blizzard also HEAVILY buys into the status quo and could just as easily hang onto it no matter the damage it causes to the game, so who knows.

Still beating this dead horse... jeeez.

Originally Posted by Elix

I wonder how long it will take before the Shamans arrive screaming angrily about not being represented in ANY of the fights.Too bad to be honest. I miss my Shaman. It's all about Divine Light nowadays.

I miss my shaman as well. It's all about Rejuvenation nowdays for me

In before zomg 5 ranged and only 1 melee.. Why am i not surprised.. And 2 of em are boomies.. wth..

Originally Posted by Ohforfsake

In before zomg 5 ranged and only 1 melee.. Why am i not surprised.. And 2 of em are boomies.. wth..

yup... Paragon isn't allowed to pick a composition that suits their needs best

Concerning heroic they are absolutely right. Concerning normals (I know that they are not that important for the "pro"s or "wannabe pro"s) 25m is much simpler. Simply due to the fact that the encounters are almost tuned for 18 people instead of 25. Fail as often as you want... as long as the remaining 18 are good players you will have success. In 10m you can compensate one death and even this is hard.

10-man is easier. Is it even debatable?

Originally Posted by MapleMeringue

I wouldn't be surprised to see 25-mans folded in the future, as they have quite low participation and design issues keep stacking, however Blizzard also HEAVILY buys into the status quo and could just as easily hang onto it no matter the damage it causes to the game, so who knows.

This is coming from someone who has played since vanilla, but never raided regularly after BC's release...but personally, I share the sentiment but for entirely different reasons. Something most players nowadays have never experienced, or conveniently forgotten, is that nearly all endgame content prior to the onslaught of 20+ player raids in response to the complaints of a very vocal 3-5% of players came in the form of 5- to 10-mans that could be PuG'ed by a group of competent players in greens.

By competent I don't mean "yeah, I just solo kited the end boss when the rest of the group wiped on pull," I mean "yeah, I can kite Drakk", which was the simplest role in what used to be the most technically-demanding encounter in the game*. This was prior to the random dungeon finder and cross-server dungeons, when a player could build a reputation on a given server for good (or poor) competency or conduct and as a result, groups were much more selective of who was invited to participate.

The post-BC design sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of raiding guilds. Blizzard's been all over the place with implementing that, whether it's the harshly over-tuned BC-era raids which overrode their early attempts at genuine hybridization through reinforcing class roles and "raid optimization" that catered to no one but the "hardcore" 4%, the Wrath-era in which raids were little more than loot and achievement farms, or the Cataclysm-era which to this point seems to try to find a happy medium of the two yet somehow managed to create a harsher series of gear requirements and progression climbing than what was even found in the BC era. Through it all, the common factor is that once the player (very quickly) hits maximum level, the only progression paths are to join a guild and raid, run dungeons for VP/JP, farm gold and buy gear upgrades through the AH, or participate in PvP (which still at least requires pre-made groups and PvP guilds now AFAIK). Only one of those progression paths sees genuinely new, quality content released on a regular basis, let alone sufficient content for the game to stay fresh until the next release.

Personally, I wish Blizzard would dump the 20+ raid category for anything but novelty value or truly endgame encounters (the final boss of an expansion cycle or encounters with major lore characters, for example) and refocus on 5- to 10-man dungeons that focus on mechanics, coordination, and player skill above gear checking. That's the way the game was on launch, and honestly it's most engaging and enjoyable point despite its numerous flaws. As I mentioned before, Drakkisath was the most difficult encounter in the game at one point* yet a group of players in random drop greens could wipe the floor with him if they knew the encounter and their role.

* Up until AQ, anyhow. Exception made for certain fake-difficulty raid encounters which utilized random attributes or mechanics that were less about being a good player than not causing a wipe by being in the wrong place at the wrong time for any reason.

No MLG backing this time?This thing is going to be a dry turd in the grass.Nobody is excited about seeing a priest, mage, and rogue cycle CC someone to boredom. ;/

Going for the race means that you're sacrificing everything for it, so you have a broad roster of good players and replace the ones you need for the perfect setup. Anyway this is playing at top levels. If you go 10 man, it's realistically due to shortage of players. So many times you're stuck with a bad layout or you have missing buffs, thing that is very remote in a 25man enviroment. So 10man raids are tuned to be done even with not pefect setup, otherwise you'll need to build up the perfect roster and change players everytime. Given this, some bosses are still too easy. Talking about normal modes, we came from 25 man to a couple of 10man due to summer defections. But bosses we needed entire evenings to down, in 10 man we oneshotted them. Ok, we knew the fights, but they really feel way too easy. Even with people that never seen the boss.

I love the lack of shamy in all the setups...

@Eacaraxe im sry but you keep saying you want blizzard to focus on 5-10man content but keep referancing a 15man raid dungeon seems alittle off dont you think?

10 mans easier than 25 mans? interesting statement considering they have better gear since they progressed in 25 man before trying 10 man, and they were free to pick up their best geared players and already knew to optimal setup and had their learning curve in 25 man. I lol'd really. To think people so skilled at the game would spew such nonsence only to further promote themselves kinda makes me sick.

Originally Posted by Synthets

10 mans easier than 25 mans? interesting statement considering they have better gear since they progressed in 25 man before trying 10 man, and they were free to pick up their best geared players and already knew to optimal setup and had their learning curve in 25 man. I lol'd really. To think people so skilled at the game would spew such nonsence only to further promote themselves kinda makes me sick.

Maybe you should try reading the article before posting next time. They covered all of this, but obviously it's a lot easier to just make angry posts on MMO-Champion.