MMO-Champion - Firelands Raid 10 vs 25 Comparison, BlizzCon Site, European Bnet Invitational, Comics
Firelands Raid 10 vs 25 Comparison
DREAM Paragon posted an interesting comparison of the Firelands Raid 10 and 25-Man fights on their site. This is probably a good read for guilds wondering if it's time to switch to 10-man because things are feeling harder, and all the 10-man raids out there can most likely steal their setup if they feel like they're struggling on something.

Raid Setups @ http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/

DREAM Paragon's conclusion on differences between 10-man and 25-Man
It's immediately obvious that there's a much greater degree of clarity and control in the 10-mans. Thinking logically, this should help quite a lot with the learning curve and avoiding mistakes, but that's not really something we could say our little skirmish 'proved' in practice. We already knew what the encounters were about and what the flame to avoid looked like -- relearning to accommodate differences is very different than learning from scratch.

A theme of more significance that you can clearly see in the three harder bosses for this tier is that the dps requirement is much too lenient in 10-man. This means that you don't really have to cut the amount of healers, which ensures relaxed gameplay for the healers while about half of their 25-man brethren are taking beta blockers just to be able to see clearly. The other half is naturally on the bench, sitting out for the extra dps. Perhaps this is a backlash from what we've been hearing about T11, but it really doesn't work as it is.

Proper tuning has repercussions though, since class balance has a huge impact when you're forced into two-heal and solo heal situations. And that's not even a stretch -- don't be surprised if you see a druid solo healing Ragnaros 10 hc before this tier is over. Might or might not happen, but at least it seemed plausible enough. Try doing that with a shaman.

This leads us to the fact that the gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s. If the encounters are really hard, you'll need a proper setup. Guilds shooting for a world first should always be expected to come up with one, but those below, the ones without alt raids, will be left hanging. If the encounters are tuned for the 'average' setup, guilds who can afford the optimal one will steamroll through them.

If we were really playing 10-man, we *would* have a close to optimal setup. Even right now, scaled down from 25 to 10, we would have about 14 players and 30-ish fully raid-capable characters. The difficulty and tuning we're concerned about is for that scenario, not for the level where you're simply enjoying the game with the hand you've been dealt.


For more information and comparison of 10/25-Man modes for all the bosses, check out the full article on DREAM Paragon's website.


New BlizzCon Site Now Open
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
We’ve just opened up a brand-new BlizzCon community site for you to find all of the latest BlizzCon news, discussions, and more. Make yourself at home on the new community forums, check out the latest BlizzCon updates, and share news items via Twitter, Facebook, and more. As we get closer to the show, the new BlizzCon site will be your headquarters for panel schedules, lists of activities to look for at the convention, tournament updates, and lots more, so be sure to check in often.

Blog comments, forum posting, and profile management are only available to those with an active StarCraft II or World of Warcraft license.

The Info-Packed Website for the 2011 European Battle.net Invitational is Now Live!
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
From today, we’ll be supplying you with lots of mouthwatering updates, information and treats on this dedicated event website leading up to the big weekend. Browse the site and discover the free HD live stream, detailed information about the event, and much more.

Get into the right mindset with classic matches and pictures of last year’s event. We’ll continue to add more content over the coming weeks, so by August 6, when the action is about to start, you’ll find everything you need to know about the 2011 Battle.net Invitational in one place:


  • Tournament information: What is it, when, why, and where? Any more questions?
  • Travel information: Do you want to soak up the atmosphere at the Invitational in person? We’ll tell you how to get there
  • Video playlist: Find classic replays and the newest matches conveniently listed right on the front page
  • Twitter feed: Stay up to date with all Battle.net Invitational tweets
  • Facebook integration: Like, share and follow the event together with your friends
  • Blog overview: Missed a blog update? See all related articles about the event at a glance

Coming soon:


  • Player profiles: Who will be fighting for glory and prize money?
  • Media section: Browse pictures of past events and watch videos of the matches – stay tuned for current media
  • Brackets: What legendary encounters are you about to witness?
  • Tournament schedule: Know what’s happening when
  • HD live stream: Watch the combatants battling it out live on stage, professionally shoutcasted and broadcast right into your home

So, are you ready for juicy eSports action? Our website will provide you with everything you need to enjoy the 2011 European Battle.net Invitational in Warsaw, Poland. Make sure to stop by regularly in the coming days to get warmed up for the big showdown!

Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects -- Excerpt Three
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Written by New York Times bestselling author Christie Golden, the new novel Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects is now on store shelves. We're pleased to present a series of three excerpts from the novel for your reading enjoyment.

Read the third excerpt below.



Comics
Dark Legacy Comics #298 and Teh Gladiators #256 + #257 are out!

This article was originally published in forum thread: Firelands Raid 10 vs 25 Comparison, BlizzCon Site, European Bnet Invitational, Comics started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 102 Comments
  1. cyan421's Avatar
    holy druids batman!!!
  1. dakalro's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jezi Belle View Post
    All of the above is true, plus the gear disparity. Even with the same gear between 10 and 25 -- between having more gear drops per person from each boss on 25, and being a world first progression guild, Paragon has a full complement of characters in full heroic T11 gear. So they have one of every spec in great gear, without having the "well-geared good player with 'wrong' spec vs. 'right' spec with less gear/experience" problem that a LOT of 10-man guilds I've seen have. And the average 10-man raid is going to have less gear due to less drops per player when they did 10-man T11, and the average raid period is going to have less gear than Paragon anyway. TL;DR: Yeah, 10s are probably easier on the whole, but they're not a complete roflcaekwalk compared to 25s or anything. :P
    Some guy already did the maths for this. Top 10 man raiding guild had on average the same ilvl as the raid used by Paragon with Paragon's tank being the worst geared of the two groups.
  1. Cleeq's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Eacaraxe View Post
    This is coming from someone who has played since vanilla....That's the way the game was on launch, and honestly it's most engaging and enjoyable point despite its numerous flaws.
    I edited out the majority of your post because its slightly on the wordy side, but I can't help but gather that you've completely ignored the faction grinding and/or dungeon grinding, or both to get resistance gear to even attempt raid bosses. I assume you're leaving out this significant point because you believe that if blizzard removed the "20+" man raids that this would not return. I have a feeling you are wrong though.
  1. Notos's Avatar
    Maybe after all the shammy QQ this will undoubtedly generate, Blizz will cave in and buff shamans. Or just continue denying that there is a problem.
  1. Priestiality's Avatar
    "People that play WoW for a living are better than me at the game, clearly this is a design problem and has nothing to do with me not being on their level." That's what most of the replies look like to me.
  1. Freese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Synthets View Post
    10 mans easier than 25 mans? interesting statement considering they have better gear since they progressed in 25 man before trying 10 man, and they were free to pick up their best geared players and already knew to optimal setup and had their learning curve in 25 man. I lol'd really. To think people so skilled at the game would spew such nonsence only to further promote themselves kinda makes me sick.
    Someone on this very website did a comparison of Paragon's 10 man group and other 10 man heroic guilds who are currently working on Heroic Ragnaros. Guess what? Paragon's group had a whopping ONE item level advantage over the 10 man guilds.
  1. MakeMeLaugh's Avatar
    I usually dont QQ about my class, but after noticing that they didnt use a single shaman, Im rly sad T_T.... BUT!!! I WILL NEVER ABANDON U MY DEAR TOTEMZ!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!!NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!!NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!!NEVER!!!NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!! NEVER!!!
  1. quackshot's Avatar
    They used 2 tanks for Rhyolith!
  1. Briga's Avatar
    How is this Paragon peice newsworthy?

    They complain the DPS requirement is lower in 10 and 25, yet they are USED to running 25s! so of course it will seem lower to them!

    They also need to bear in mind that 10 Man content is not tuned for a specific setup because most 10 man guilds do not have multiples of classes waiting in the wings to class stack to beat the encounter.

    Content is not tuned just for Paragon, they should remember that.
  1. DoubleTrouble's Avatar
    Briga you have no clue... the DPS requirements were already way lower for heroic T11 10man bosses. Just compare WoL combatlogs for easier hardmode bosses and youll see that 10man fights with significantly less DPS will still take shorter. Blizzards new system ist like with T10. Easy 10mans, hard 25 mans but now we have same loot. Thanks for destroying about 75% of all 25man raiding guilds.

    10 man encounters not tuned for specific setup? surely 10 slots are hard to fill with specific setup but 25 man guilds surely have 4 raiding boomkins and 5 DKs. Seems to me youre in some 10man guild that is not ever going to clear even the previous content but you need to let everyone know how hard it is to justify your guilds incompetence. Go on please.
  1. Typhron's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Eacaraxe View Post
    This is coming from someone who has played since vanilla, but never raided regularly after BC's release...but personally, I share the sentiment but for entirely different reasons. Something most players nowadays have never experienced, or conveniently forgotten, is that nearly all endgame content prior to the onslaught of 20+ player raids in response to the complaints of a very vocal 3-5% of players came in the form of 5- to 10-mans that could be PuG'ed by a group of competent players in greens.

    By competent I don't mean "yeah, I just solo kited the end boss when the rest of the group wiped on pull," I mean "yeah, I can kite Drakk", which was the simplest role in what used to be the most technically-demanding encounter in the game*. This was prior to the random dungeon finder and cross-server dungeons, when a player could build a reputation on a given server for good (or poor) competency or conduct and as a result, groups were much more selective of who was invited to participate.

    The post-BC design sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of raiding guilds. Blizzard's been all over the place with implementing that, whether it's the harshly over-tuned BC-era raids which overrode their early attempts at genuine hybridization through reinforcing class roles and "raid optimization" that catered to no one but the "hardcore" 4%, the Wrath-era in which raids were little more than loot and achievement farms, or the Cataclysm-era which to this point seems to try to find a happy medium of the two yet somehow managed to create a harsher series of gear requirements and progression climbing than what was even found in the BC era. Through it all, the common factor is that once the player (very quickly) hits maximum level, the only progression paths are to join a guild and raid, run dungeons for VP/JP, farm gold and buy gear upgrades through the AH, or participate in PvP (which still at least requires pre-made groups and PvP guilds now AFAIK). Only one of those progression paths sees genuinely new, quality content released on a regular basis, let alone sufficient content for the game to stay fresh until the next release.

    Personally, I wish Blizzard would dump the 20+ raid category for anything but novelty value or truly endgame encounters (the final boss of an expansion cycle or encounters with major lore characters, for example) and refocus on 5- to 10-man dungeons that focus on mechanics, coordination, and player skill above gear checking. That's the way the game was on launch, and honestly it's most engaging and enjoyable point despite its numerous flaws. As I mentioned before, Drakkisath was the most difficult encounter in the game at one point* yet a group of players in random drop greens could wipe the floor with him if they knew the encounter and their role.

    * Up until AQ, anyhow. Exception made for certain fake-difficulty raid encounters which utilized random attributes or mechanics that were less about being a good player than not causing a wipe by being in the wrong place at the wrong time for any reason.
    I hardly pay attention to the news anymore but...well goddamn said.

    Sidenote: This is kind of why I like Paragon. They give honest feedback on classes while also saying what can be improved about the game. They have the development teams' ear and are using it advantageously for everyone, very fucking unlike Kugen and Ensidia in previous years. I'd honestly resub if I could find the time to enjoy Paladins or Warriors like I want (Or Druids. Or Shamans).
  1. Gisho's Avatar
    Like zYn wrote in Paragons forum, if they would ever go for 10 man only, they would surely have 15-16 players with more then 30 chars so they could compete for WF. If you are not able to have such a roster even in a 10 man guild, then you are not giving everything to be the world first guild. And to be honest stacking in 25 man is nowdays even harder then in 10 man for a semi hardcore guild, with a roster of 30 raiding members and everyone having only 1 char it's not that easy to bring 4 moonkins to your raid.
  1. Spike`'s Avatar
    this thing again? ....

    10 man are tuned because not every guild can have the almost/perfect setup for the hard modes

    25 are tuned on having every buff available and recourses (that's why dps on WOL is always higher on 25 versus 10 man)

    so... this shit again? Blizzard make next raid a 15 man one and end all 25 and 10 man and will be over of this same talking over and over and over and over .....

    hey will be even better for blizzard if they make only 15 man versions, less work for them tunning 2 modes (and we know that they like doing less work and calculations)
  1. Raduzzz's Avatar
    Im not a child and i m not crying,but playing shaman long time,specialy Restoration,but now all can see how paladins are OP,they HPS is really high and 10 man HC modes are impossible without 2 paladins..i think most fights...same is 25 man...is really retarded from blizzard...they push one class as paladin really high and rest as shamans 10000000 feeeeet under them...I can be 2-3 on 25 man with ehaling done but my hps is to low..and you can top your healing only with HR.... Elemental is still to low...enha is ok atm..i think...i m thinking about reroling now after few years playing Sahaman..
  1. fogi's Avatar
    Well Im not suprised that there is no resto shaman. I play one and my guild is 6/7 25hc and the only boss they needed me realy for tide and maybe extra CD like SLink wasbeth`tilac. So I don't think really there is a big problem with shamans but FL dps check's are ridicolous. And like Kyylol wrote, the only healer that need mana tide is shaman. Maybe thats the problem dunno , but I don't really care if blizzard will fix it or not coz I miss our fist kills so, please blizz be better with shamans for the next patch.
  1. Raduzzz's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by fogi View Post
    Well Im not suprised that there is no resto shaman. I play one and my guild is 6/7 25hc and the only boss they needed me realy for tide and maybe extra CD like SLink wasbeth`tilac. So I don't think really there is a big problem with shamans but FL dps check's are ridicolous. And like Kyylol wrote, the only healer that need mana tide is shaman. Maybe thats the problem dunno , but I don't really care if blizzard will fix it or not coz I miss our fist kills so, please blizz be better with shamans for the next patch.
    Hello M8,you are 100% right,there is a huge problem with that aswell,talking about mana..is only for shaman,sometimes help to others but most times is only for shaman.There is low HPS..and Double mana burn..cant imagine HC modes with this..and my gear is almost Hc from BWD...BOT..and some from FL...

    Blizz should do something now no in next patch...
  1. Briga's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTrouble View Post
    Briga you have no clue... the DPS requirements were already way lower for heroic T11 10man bosses. Just compare WoL combatlogs for easier hardmode bosses and youll see that 10man fights with significantly less DPS will still take shorter. Blizzards new system ist like with T10. Easy 10mans, hard 25 mans but now we have same loot. Thanks for destroying about 75% of all 25man raiding guilds.

    10 man encounters not tuned for specific setup? surely 10 slots are hard to fill with specific setup but 25 man guilds surely have 4 raiding boomkins and 5 DKs. Seems to me youre in some 10man guild that is not ever going to clear even the previous content but you need to let everyone know how hard it is to justify your guilds incompetence. Go on please.
    Reported as I can only assume you are a troll based on your attitude here.

    Nobody ever said you needed 4 boomkins and 5 dks to get the kill in 25 man. Paragon chose that tactic and it doesn't mean the fight is tuned around it. Just as Neffy was not balanced around feral stacking to get the kill. World first guilds are racing to do anything they can to get there first.

    Most 10 man guilds out there doing hard modes do not have access to the resources they do. If they did have access to enough classes to class stack, they wouldn't be doing 10 man content in the first place. Also remember this tier comes after the last where it was universally agreed that 10 man HC Tier 11 was way over tuned.
  1. Nymrohd's Avatar
    Competitive 10 man raiding should never be the endgame of WoW. The reason was described by Paragon and everyone with half a brain knows it already. Unless classes are virtual clones of each other in capability, their effectiveness per encounter will change drastically. And in a 10man where individual contribution merits much higher, the effect of raid composition is disproportional compared to 25man. If you want to raid competitively yet 10man only, you'd need about 10-14 players who all gear at least 2 possibly 3 toons through alt raids.
  1. PwnTaco's Avatar
    this is why i quit play WoW because shaman are useless T_T
  1. Manhands's Avatar
    Shouldn't all of Paragon's comments say, 'We feel that...' or 'It has been our experience that...'. Does anyone doubt that they are the most dedicated/skilled guild? No. But their word is not gospel.

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