Dev Watercooler -- Bloody Mitigation
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
What Active Mitigation Actually Means, and the Future of the Blood Death Knight

We recently buffed tank threat significantly and suggested that we would fill in any potential lost gameplay with new gameplay. What I meant by that was that if tanks don’t need to hit their buttons to generate threat, they may realize they don’t need to hit most of their buttons at all, and just stand there waiting until the right time to Shield Wall. Going a GCD or two without using a combat ability is fine with us. Standing around much longer than that gets boring quickly.

What we proposed is that tanks should ideally want to hit their buttons because it keeps them alive. I didn’t elaborate on that too much except to say it would feel more like the Blood DK method of tanking, which prompted some players to state that they didn’t like the DK model, or to point out that the DK model is not just active but reactive. Fair enough.

To better explain what we meant by that we need to define active mitigation. We define it as hitting buttons regularly that have a meaningful impact on your future mitigation. You should occasionally alter your rotation depending on what is going on in the fight, but you should still mitigate regularly and not save everything for the really big, predictable hits. DKs have a little of this, but Death Strike is ultimately a heal, which is a response to damage, not damage prevention. I also think the DK model gets a bad rap because of some other mechanical problems, which aren’t really problems with active mitigation per se. So let me go into a bit more hand-waving about what active mitigation could mean for other tanks, and then I’ll share a little DK info.


Some Active Mitigation Models

Here are three different models for why hitting buttons can matter to tanks. It's easy to come up with alternative models, and none of these are perfect, nor are we ready to announce which is the one we’re going to try first. But these ideas can get some discussions going.

Model One: Tank DPS matters

This one really isn't active mitigation per se, but it is a way to make pushing buttons matter. We have berserk timers or other DPS checks on a lot of our encounters. Typically tank DPS isn’t taken seriously on these fights, which is a little puzzling at first glance. Yes, the tank may not be able to match the Enhance shaman for damage done, but also consider that the Enhance shaman would absolutely love it if she could improve her DPS by a paltry 3K. That 3K may be enough to meet that DPS check. Note that I’m not talking about tanks being able to beat out skilled DPS players; I think most of us agree that would be a little bizarre. But that doesn’t mean tank damage has to be a non-factor either. Sure, the Feral tank may be doing 16K DPS to the shaman’s 30K, but 3K is 3K.

I polled all of the class designers who raid Heroic content (which is all of them, I believe) and only one had ever given his tanks a hard time for low DPS. Sometimes it’s just not possible because of the fight dynamics. In other cases it is, but as a community, we tend to not focus on tank DPS. We sometimes ask healers to Shadow Word: Pain, even though the contribution is trivial. Go figure. Maybe we assume tanks already have enough on their plate. Maybe they really are prima donnas and we don’t want them to /ragequit. (I kid.)

One potential downside of this model is that it's just the old threat rotations but with the emphasis on DPS rather than threat per second. Ultimately, we want tanks to feel like their rotations are related to tanking and that they aren't just doing a DPS rotation with the occasional long cooldown. Another is that it makes not only stats like hit and expertise desirable, but also crit and haste, which aren’t typically on plate tanking gear. We want to make tank itemization more interesting than just “stack mastery,” but we don’t want it to be baffling either.

Model Two: DPS buttons provide mitigation

This is the model that several players in the community have predicted will be our approach, and the idea has some merit. Under this model, imagine that a warrior wants to hit Shield Slam because it makes his next Shield Block larger. Imagine Revenge procs a short parry buff. Devastate and Thunder Clap already have roles applying debuffs. This model we think could feel pretty intuitive. One downside is that each individual button might feel less impactful and make the experience less visceral. Shield Block feels awesome because when you push it, the damage numbers go way down, and you feel “safe” for the duration. If you replace one slice of that pie with Revenge and Shield Slam, then everything gets watered down. If the rotation is very simple, then it feels like passive mitigation; if not then it’s a stressful juggling act. Another potential downside is that keeping up multiple buffs and debuffs can be tedious. Rather than it feeling like a bonus to get those procs, it can feel like a penalty whenever they’re not up. Even if you are hit and expertise capped, sometimes you have to move away from the boss to avoid a fire ring, or you need to leave to pick up an add. If you can’t bank the mitigation benefit, then the risk is you feel like you don’t really have control over your survivability.

Model Three: DPS buttons build up resources

This model lets you bank the benefits. Imagine you have to build up a resource to use on short-term cooldowns. We couldn't include the Shield Walls and their ilk here, because an "oh snap" button needs to be available immediately and not in the future once you've earned some resources. But weaker cooldowns such as Shield Block and Holy Shield could certainly work this way. Imagine the paladin tank needs Crusader Strike to land to generate Holy Power, and can then decide to spend that Holy Power on Holy Shield Block or Word of Glory. Neither of those would have a cooldown in this design, so more hits landing will always be better -- it's not just a matter of hitting enough to have 100% uptime. (You'd probably also need the ability to save Holy Power more than you can today so that there was less pressure to spend a cooldown as soon as it became available.)

The choice can then become whether to use Holy Shield Block or Word of Glory. Holy Shield Block is probably your first choice, but if you screw it up or the damage is magical, or you need a reactive button instead of an active one, then Word of Glory might be a better choice. Either way, there shouldn’t be any simple answers. (As a counterpoint, deciding to spend that Holy Power on threat instead of mitigation is just never going to be interesting -- smart tanks will always use it to survive, as we saw before Protection had a Word of Glory cooldown.)

As an aside, the Feral druid's mitigation is arguably the most passive right now, and we’d want to change things like Savage Defense to be active buttons under this model. One downside of Model Three is the risk that the rotation could be too formulaic: AAAAB, for example. It could also be asking a lot of tanks -- rather than just hitting buttons to generate threat, tanks would need to pay active attention to managing a resource. No more infinite rage just for getting beat on. We want tanking to be fun, and we think that needs to include a certain degree of risk of failure for not playing well, but that doesn't mean it needs to be frustrating. Challenging and frustrating don't need to go together.

Again, these aren't the kind of changes we will hotfix in. It's going to take a lot of thought and a lot of feedback from players to get things feeling right. As a comparison, we still stand behind the mana adjustments we made for healers for Cataclysm. We think the healer gameplay is more engaging than it was at the end of Lich King, but that's obviously very subjective and took a lot of getting used to, even for seasoned players. We'd like to introduce the tanking changes more smoothly, but we still want to introduce them.


Bloody Death Knights

The risk of talking about one particular spec in a blog is then everyone will wonder when BM hunters or Disc priests are going to get "their" blog. It's not going to work like that, but since I referenced the DK tanking style so much in the previous tanking blog, I feel like it's appropriate to go into a little more detail about what we don't like about DK tanking (and how we’re going to fix it) so that all tanks have a better idea of what the future might hold for their own character.

Outbreak

One of the fundamental tensions in DK tanking is deciding whether to spend a rune on diseases (which offer necessary tanking debuffs) or save the rune for Death Strike. Our hope was that choosing how to spend the resources would be interesting. A rogue for example has to decide on whether to spend resources on Slice and Dice or Eviscerate (or a number of other things). In reality though, we don’t think this decision has been a fun one. You feel cheated if you refresh diseases and then need to Death Strike a moment later, and you feel like a bad tank if you just neglect diseases. For 4.3, we’re going to give Blood DKs a 30 second Outbreak, so they will never have to manually apply diseases to a single target. Yes, that can lead to even more Death Strikes but we think adding a fun alternative to Death Strike is not the kind of thing we can easily change for 4.3.

I feel the need to point out that we’re not just being lazy here. We understand that many players get really worn down by constant class design change, especially mid-expansion, even if they end up improving the experience overall. Deciding when to make serious changes and when to wait is a major challenge of MMO game design. I’ll try and explore this more in a future blog.

Blade Barrier

We originally designed this talent to encourage DKs to not sit on their runes, and it worked fine for that. However, the current model of Death Strike, which we also like, is that the timing of the Death Strike matters a great deal, encouraging you to… you guessed it… sit on your runes. We’re just going to change Blade Barrier to something more passive (and yes, temporarily more boring) for 4.3.

Death Strike

It sucks when Death Strike misses. "Stack hit and expertise" is an answer to that, but not one that's really viable or even fair given that other tanks will care even less about hit and expertise in the short term. Rather than making Death Strike always hit, we’re going to let it always heal you, and proc Blood Shield, even when it misses. This kind of tweak may very well be an interim solution given that everything I said above was that we want tanks to care about hitting to drive their mitigation. But we don’t think it’s fair to penalize the DK for working the “new way” while everyone else is still working the "old way," and it's too much of a change for 4.3 to apply the "new way" to the other three classes. In the long term, as in the Protadin example above, the rotation can't just be Death Strike, Death Strike, Death Strike... Death Strike.

Bone Shield

This change is something we’re exploring but may not pan out, so no claiming we "promised" this *cough*Abyssal Maw*cough*. So… CAVEAT: this may not come to pass. What we’re considering doing with Bone Shield is have it mitigate damage spikes. DKs are prone to spikes more so than the other tanks, particularly the paladin and warrior who can "block cap" (I assume most of you know what that entails, if not, a helpful explanation if someone asks in the comments would be appreciated). Death Strike can theoretically handle the spikes, but if you miss (less of an issue with the above change) or time your DS poorly, you might take much higher damage than other tanks from a single hit. Our idea is that Bone Shield would expend a charge to dampen those spikes specifically. If a single attack did a huge percent of your total health, then some of that attack would be automatically lessened for the cost of a charge. Smaller hits wouldn’t spend a charge.

Blood Shield

This is an even longer-term change. Death Strike feeling reactive is fun, and one of the things we like about how the DK tanks. Death Striking after a big hit can heal you more than Death Striking before a big hit, so you should ideally pay attention to what the boss is doing instead of just mashing buttons as soon as the runes come up. When you heal a novice DK, you may just notice they take a lot of damage. When you get in sync with a talented DK, you come to know when they are going to Death Strike and recover from big hits. However, sometimes inevitably the tank is going to hit DS too soon and not have it available a second later. Our idea is to somehow turn Blood Shield into more of a pool that you actively try to build and maintain. A system where you’re able to add to a pool of absorption would provide more granularity, which in turn would be more forgiving of errors or streaks of bad luck.


There you have it. When we're ready for the 4.3 PTR, you’ll hopefully see some of these DK changes in place. The blog we wrote that dove into our thought process for the 4.2 patch notes ended up being the most positively received blog that the class team has ever done, so we’ll definitely do one of those again for 4.3. As I mentioned, more active mitigation will probably wait for farther in the future. We might talk about how we decide on when a change is more appropriate for a hotfix, patch, or full expansion in the next developer blog. While it might be short on upcoming class changes, hopefully it will still prove interesting to some of you.

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft and he probably listens to your podcast.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Dev Watercooler -- Bloody Mitigation started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 164 Comments
  1. Strakha's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by verba View Post
    The fuck, i didnt read it all but Blood dks in 2s are just WTF right now.. I'm not sure if its possible to win against 2 good players that goes blood specc, they simply cant die..
    2s is a joke.
  1. Rexam's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Zankoku View Post
    Protadin says hi!. Protadin "rune" (Crusader Strike and Hammer of the Righteous) generate our secondary resource, on a 3 second CD. If it misses, we lose out on our secondary resource and the CD is not reset. Granted the Protadin has many other options that are not reliant on our secondary resource, but loosing the flow on our secondary resource still hurts. Word of Glory right after a nasty hit helps healer mana.
    Fix them both now, I say! Make them both unmissable since they don't want tanks to cap hit / exp.
  1. zrankfappa's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowdream View Post
    Actually, I really agree with this. It would be nice to actually see some debate going on, even if the Devs only humour the player base.
    The water cooler is in fact a way for the devs to seed discussion in the community, thereby getting feedback to things they are discussing. This is also a good way to gauge player reaction. Sort of like how one might get a discussion started with the wife regarding a threesome ... you throw it out there, and gauge the reaction. Then you can dismiss it as a joke, or run with it.
  1. WorldofWorkcraft's Avatar
    So they don't want us to manage threat really...or to care if we actually hit something...hmmm...might as well take away our weapons and just let us siphon HP from the mob directly - Blood DK finally becomes a vampire.
  1. Strakha's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldofWorkcraft View Post
    So they don't want us to manage threat really...or to care if we actually hit something...hmmm...might as well take away our weapons and just let us siphon HP from the mob directly - Blood DK finally becomes a vampire.
    I wouldn't mind if they made us punch people and bite them, that would pretty awesome. Instead of Death Strike you could have Death Bite and instead of Blood Strike you can have Blood Punch. Instead of Icy Touch you could have Uncomfortable Massage.
  1. Deathlulz's Avatar
    As a dk who does end game content atm.

    These changes seem a bit OP to me. I already can keep up with other tanks as it is. The missing and procing a sheild anyway means dk's will be dropping all the expertise/hit they had until they can just barely generate enough threat to keep the boss on them and then afk/spamming ds till the fight is over with outbreak thrown in every 30 secs.

    I dont even think im going to need a healer in my Random heroics anymore....shesh.
  1. Zankoku's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by verba View Post
    The fuck, i didnt read it all but Blood dks in 2s are just WTF right now.. I'm not sure if its possible to win against 2 good players that goes blood specc, they simply cant die..
    So a double melee comp is OP? Use snares and slows, and kite them. Use your CC. Save Disengage/Blink/Sprint/Ghostwolf/etc etc for the DG/CoI combo. The only ranged options BloodDKs have are DG, DC, Outbreak, DarkSirc and CoI. If the BloodDK goes to Unholy Presence to gap close, they lose out on their bubble. And with the change to the DS glyph and BloodShield, it is actually hurting BloodDks to go Unholy Presence.


    Besides, Blizz has stated that Arena Pvp is not balance against 2s.
  1. WorldofWorkcraft's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Strakha View Post
    I wouldn't mind if they made us punch people and bite them, that would pretty awesome. Instead of Death Strike you could have Death Bite and instead of Blood Strike you can have Blood Punch. Instead of Icy Touch you could have Uncomfortable Massage.
    Segway into the Pandaren Monk people are so sure is feasible. Tanks without weapons - >Class that doesn't need weapons - >Monks.

    I love uncomfortable massages. Hehehe.

    Maybe they should stop changing tank mechanics and start upping boss mechanics. Give a boss a pool of 20 abilities per phase that tests the dps, tank, or healers equally and randomly. Then everyone would have to be on their toes and it'd be fun. I wanna see prettier moves and animations from bosses, tehe.
  1. Sting's Avatar
    Ugh, I can already see them screwing it up bigtime which would result in even less tanks.
  1. fangless's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathlulz View Post
    The missing and procing a sheild anyway means dk's will be dropping all the expertise/hit they had until they can just barely generate enough threat to keep the boss on them and then afk/spamming ds till the fight is over with outbreak thrown in every 30 secs.
    Who kept hit/exp anyhow? Anyone with half a brain reforged it or didn't take said item.

    I'd imagine they would just make it consume runes on hit or miss. Obviously if it didn't, missing would be preferable to hit, and that's silly.
  1. McFrotton's Avatar
    Am i the only one gopign crazy for that bone shield change? its like giving us an always on shield block throttle all small damage and only big ass damage spend charge its AWESOME srly , just hope it makes it live
  1. Cows For Life's Avatar
    Making all tanks play similarly to DK's is a good way to make sure I never play my warrior, paladin, or druid again.
  1. Seregon's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathlulz View Post
    As a dk who does end game content atm.

    These changes seem a bit OP to me. I already can keep up with other tanks as it is. The missing and procing a sheild anyway means dk's will be dropping all the expertise/hit they had until they can just barely generate enough threat to keep the boss on them and then afk/spamming ds till the fight is over with outbreak thrown in every 30 secs.

    I dont even think im going to need a healer in my Random heroics anymore....shesh.
    Most tanks go for as little exp/hit as possible anyway. Frankly I'd be very happy with this change if it would prevent this from happening ever again.
  1. gortz's Avatar
    First of all, threat was already meaningless before this patch except for initial aggro and even that wasn't a big problem with MD. I feel pretty happy as a tank with the way things are atm and don't see any of these active mitigation models (or similar) as positive. We already have enough things going on beyond our basic key bashing abilities that keep us very much interested. Reactive i.e. "my HP dropped 30k, ill use THIS ability" is very dull and takes our focus away from other things. I for one LOVE the fact that i'm more free to look around and watch what other people are doing in the raid rather than focusing so much on a bunch of timers and other things DPS/healers keep an eye on. To help illustrate this a bit more, having the ability to do that is what makes me a better tank than some of the newer tanks that focus too much on abilities. If it aint broke, don't fix it.. but fix DKs. If you want tanks to do more damage then buff our damage but it won't matter or make it more meaningful lol.

    "Hitting buttons" won't matter more either with these models. If you make the abilities award parry and stuff it's just going to be a negative if they're not up and a gimmick overall since we're already getting this damage mitigation already (they said it would be a piece of the pie.. ie.. they take away some mastery/parry/dodge% to add to these mashable "on CD" abilities etc) and guess what, we're still gonna mash them in the same way we do currently anyway. So i ask you, where is the meaning in that?

    Having said that. I don't mind the idea of building up resources too much but again, if it aint broke, dont fix it. The only reason i find this interesting is because i can picture my shield slams causing larger shield blocks or more crit shield blocks etc but do i really care about it? I don't believe it makes it more "interesting" as it's basically adding an extra little gimmick to abilities we press already in the exact same fashion and i dunno, i don't see the warriors, paladins or druids complaining about the current model. I see DKs complaining and i would complain too. Fix DKs so their model works or revert it and leave us.
  1. Legendary_Zer0's Avatar
    Love the people saying if DS missing and still heals/bubbles you then Crusader strike should give me holy power. The difference between these 2 abilities is Deathstrike is actually used to create a form of mitigation. Where Crusader Strike is an ability that gives you a secondary resource that strictly gives you threat and threat only. The penalty of missing a deathstrike is equal to less threat and less mitigated damage. Crusader Strike on the other hand only leaves you missing out on threat. A change that i would like to see for CS would be if CS/HotR miss/dodge/parry it reduces the CD of those abilities to equal that of the GCD. As for the Bloodshield Vs Savage Defense after this buff to Deathstrike i'd like to see savage defense a little closer in comparison. Savage Defense being 50% chance on your say 40% Crit isn't as appealing compared to every other tanking classes Mastery.
  1. ragingsoul's Avatar
    All I have to say is: I despise self healing as tank. because of this, I don't like blood tanking, and I never even spec prot on my pala since cata, after having tanking with him for 3 years. Only tank I sometimes play is prot warrior, which still feels about the same, and a bit like a tankadin from the past. If they want those changes for all tanks, they'll have 1 less tank to worry about, and 1 less tank in LFG.
    I'm sure some people will like it more, but I know a lot of veteran tanks from vanilla and TBC, that won't continue if those changes are made for all tanks. It's just not what we loved about tanking anymore.

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    A rogue for example has to decide on whether to spend resources on Slice and Dice or Eviscerate (or a number of other things).
    Those are in fact miss leading choices, and in the end, are not choices anymore.
    You never let SnD fall, there is no choice to make between refreshing it, or doing something else. On the other hand, the choice to use 4 or 5 combo points is viable. The same way, there is no choice to use VT with 1, 2 or 3 holy power. it's 3 or nothing, 1 and 2 are just not even remotely worth it, and thus, there is no choice in the matter.

    it's very risky to put those kind of mechanics. People will analyze, and if scenario A puts more dps/mitigation than scenario B, then scenario B will never happen. The choice of using it disappear.
    Also, changing this like this, will likely turn veteran tanks with experience away, for new players that never experience tanking before. It's sad really. It made sence back in TBC, to have holy shield/shield block active all the time. and you were turning your rotation for those important buttons and mitigation buttons. The rest was keeping aggro for your dps, and avoiding fire.
    But ofc, after:
    • Removing Crushing blows
    • Putting DR on tanking stats
    • Removing Defense rating
    • Making every piece of gear a potential tanking piece with reforging
    • Making threat generation irrelevant
    • Removing the little "work" of a CC pull with CC and aggro mechanics.
    They removed so much from the spec that they need to find something "fun" again. why not simply put dps gear and convert haste to parry and crit to dodge really, to make it even less atractive, or is that the next step?
  1. underdogba's Avatar
    My take on all of this "active mitigation" business is that instead of just fixing DK's to take less burst damage and accepting that their original design was a total mistake, they have to engage in this convuluted plan to make every tank behave more like that to pretend that they know what they're doing.

    This is just far too much monkeying around with the game just to save face.
  1. Narshe's Avatar
    Isnt it much easier and less of a headache development wise, to just make abilities like DS and Shield Slam have a 100% chance of hitting? Just remove miss chance from a tanks core ability, also Crusader Strike and Mangle, then base the tank specs around this spell.
  1. darkwarrior42's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by ragingsoul View Post
    Those are in fact miss leading choices, and in the end, are not choices anymore. You never let SnD fall, there is no choice to make between refreshing it, or doing something else. On the other hand, the choice to use 4 or 5 combo points is viable. The same way, there is no choice to use VT with 1, 2 or 3 holy power. it's 3 or nothing, 1 and 2 are just not even remotely worth it, and thus, there is no choice in the matter. it's very risky to put those kind of mechanics. People will analyze, and if scenario A puts more dps/mitigation than scenario B, then scenario B will never happen. The choice of using it disappear.
    But the example they're referencing is not one of those cases. If they put holy shield back on holy power (which is what they were talking about) and remove the CD from Word of Glory (also mentioned), then your choice as a protection paladin becomes whether to use your holy power on Holy Shield or Word of Glory. Holy Shield protects only against physical damage, but is pure mitigation and likely more powerful. Word of Glory is reactive, which is better if you miss using the ability beforehand (or don't have the holy power), and can heal you after you get hit by anything (even magical damage). He mentioned these things specifically, so I'm surprised you didn't see the difference (unless you're just deciding to hate the changes because they're changes, in which case no amount of logic or reason will work I suppose).


    For a very long time, protection paladins and warriors had to make sure they kept up shield block and/or holy shield at all times, for the sake of avoiding crushing blows. This required the warrior to have enough rage to hit shield block; not really that hard, but still something you could screw up (and letting it fall off at the wrong time could easily get you killed). If they go the "offensive abilities generate resources you use on defensive CDs" route, we'll just be going back to a system more like that, so I really don't see what the big deal is.

    As for tanks self-healing, you're acting like tanks have never self-healed before DK tanks. There were plenty of times I used seal of light as a protadin for some extra regen, not to mention enraged/frenzied regeneration, improved leader of the pack.... sure, they weren't as significant as DK self-healing, and they still aren't.


    There are a lot of things they could do that I would absolutely hate, but really, overreacting when we have nothing specific yet, and when there are plenty of systems they could use that are just slight variations of what we've had in the past is just silly.
  1. mmocce676f6b0f's Avatar
    So they gonna make DK faceroll -.-

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