Firelands Raid Changes Incoming

Originally Posted by The Acrimony

Players upset because they want to see all the content.

Blizzard makes normal modes so everyone can see content; heroic modes specifically so elite players can experience a challenge.

Blizzard nerfs heroic modes so everyone can see heroic content.

ITT: People who don't understand

ITT: "All guilds ranked lower than world 150 are bad because they didn't complete everything yet.

I have NEVER saw a post asking for a heroic raid nerf.

Dont try to put this on people, like me, asking for normal modes to be easy shoulders. The nerf on heroic raids is on Blizzard's doing, and their responsability only.

Again NO ONE ASKED FOR HEROIC RAIDS NERF. Complain to blizzard.

---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 09:19 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Alyssa

Would be interesting to see how many wants to "see the content" if Blizzard adds a ICC style buff to nerf and remove all loot drops and achives if you use it

It would be interesting to see how many "want challenge" and not others to fail if blizzard create a new and more challenging setting that heroic one without loot.

How many people would "want the challenge" then?. I guess paragon would do it, once, and maybe 5 more guilds. That's it.

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

It would be interesting to see how many "want challenge" and not others to fail if blizzard create a new and more challenging setting that heroic one without loot.

How many people would "want the challenge" then?. I guess paragon would do it, once, and maybe 5 more guilds. That's it.

Way to miss the point, the gear is a tool for progression and as such needed for said challenge (to some extent) but the gear and achieves from an outdated instance isn't, yet "seeing the content" is used as an argument for nerfs.

And I'm quite sure more would be interested in having a challenge to aim for than the outdated raid without loot, rewards and challenge is what makes people put effort in.

And Blizzard is wondering how they could lose 900k players in 6 months ? BIG NEWS: THIS is one of the reasons. Making the even rare endgame content easier > ppl become boring/no challenge > and leave.

If you want a challenge, then you can still run hm fl in full 359 gear. If this is out of the question, then you are clearly more interested in being special and elitist with the hm rather than having a challenge.

I don't personally remember ANYONE doing normal modes with 1/7 hm complaining about not being able to see H Rag. Nor did I see anyone 6/7 normal mode not being able to see H Rag. People who do normal modes do normal modes because they like the easy-moderate difficulty and can still feel a sense of accomplishment. They DO NOT CARE TO SEE HEROIC CONTENT.

The people who DO want to see heroic content want to do it through huge challenges. If Blizzard's progression wasn't so blatantly stupid making previous tiers utterly obsolete, difficulty would never be a problem and content would never need to get nerfed. Instead, Blizzard is nerfing content that NO ONE ASKED TO GET NERFED (besides H Rag who already got nerfed). Heroic raiders WANT the challenge. It should not be getting touched by the nerfs until patch 5.0 if ever.

So let me get this straight. Since t11 heroics (BOT,BWD,TO4W) were never nerfed, they will be the hardest content for a level 85 player until t13? This is just a joke right? Currently, how the game is at this moment, T11 heroics are more difficult then FL normals. This still makes ppl who earned all of that great Sinestra gear and other great 372 gear look unique. If you don't believe that t11 heroics > FL normals then ask yourself, how many Sinestra pugs are actually killing her? How many pugs that do BWD, BOT and TO4W that decide to attempt a heroic boss other then Halfus actually kill it? On my server, which is a very good pve raiding server, there has yet to be even one pug to kill Heroic Nef, Cho'gall or Sinestra. It's a topic that is discussed often in trade chat by ppl like myself, and when I laugh at ppl who try to form heroic t11 pugs, I have yet to be proven wrong with someone showing me that their pug was able to kill any boss. So what about FL normal pugs? 5/7 is done by ~70 pug raids a week. ~30 of those down Domo and ~10 of those down Rag. Again though, none of them can down Sinestra or any heroic t11 boss except Halfus and if they had a reason to maybe Conclave.

But now Blizzard is going to nerf FL heroics down to the ground and make them easier then t11 heroics? On Sep 19th, if they are going to do this, they should just change t11 heroic gear from ilvl 372/379 to 392/399. How they handled the nerf of the first wave of Cata raids was spot on and the majority of wow players approved of it. But they are making a very stupid mistake nerfing heroic FL to make it easier then heroic t11.

Originally Posted by drumboy35

If you want a challenge, then you can still run hm fl in full 359 gear. If this is out of the question, then you are clearly more interested in being special and elitist with the hm rather than having a challenge.

There are all kinds of ways to handicap a game so it becomes challenging - that's not the point. It's Blizzard's job to make the game challenging - the underlying assumption behind any game is that there will be a challenge. Players should not have to look for ways to gimp themselves in order to make the game seem worthwhile.

That was supposed to be the entire point of heroic raids - the "normal" raids give everyone access to every last scrap of content and the heroics give players who want a challenge their challenge. I think it was a reasonable response to the fact that most players never advanced far enough to see Black Temple and Sunwell in BC.

But by nerfing heroics, Blizzard is admitting that the entire concept of heroic raids has failed - even with access to all content in normal-mode, there's a large group of players who just don't like the fact that other players have access to the exact same content at a more difficult level of play with better rewards, as witnessed by the gloating here over the heroic nerfs.

The main problem, and why Blizz even DOES these nerfs, outside of making their next raid the hardest raid there is in the game, is because of (gasp!) elitists.

Want me to explain? Because it's them that has opted to not accept anyone else in their raids to fail even once, or die even once. Harder difficulties will be okay if the people that run them don't expect everyone else to just faceroll the content the very first time they step foot in the raid, and constantly kick people for even clicking 1 instead of 2 when fighting a trash pack, to the point where they end up bitching about the kick timer debuff because they kick so many times. People get tired of getting put through that, so they ask for a nerf. Not because they can't handle the content. I bet 3/4ths of the people that actually ask for nerfs could handle the content pre-nerf. It's, again, the holier-than-thou community that can't handle anyone in the raid dying once, or never want to have to use a rez for even one person.

Improve the community on THAT issue (which is a multi-tier issue, I can suspect, with the LFR news we've been hearing and all the QQing that's going on about THAT news), and I ca almost guarantee that it will fix a BUNCH of issues, including the amount of "unnecessary" nerfs.

Originally Posted by darkpower

The main problem, and why Blizz even DOES these nerfs, outside of making their next raid the hardest raid there is in the game, is because of (gasp!) elitists.

Want me to explain? Because it's them that has opted to not accept anyone else in their raids to fail even once, or die even once. Harder difficulties will be okay if the people that run them don't expect everyone else to just faceroll the content the very first time they step foot in the raid, and constantly kick people for even clicking 1 instead of 2 when fighting a trash pack, to the point where they end up bitching about the kick timer debuff because they kick so many times. People get tired of getting put through that, so they ask for a nerf. Not because they can't handle the content. I bet 3/4ths of the people that actually ask for nerfs could handle the content pre-nerf. It's, again, the holier-than-thou community that can't handle anyone in the raid dying once, or never want to have to use a rez for even one person.

Improve the community on THAT issue (which is a multi-tier issue, I can suspect, with the LFR news we've been hearing and all the QQing that's going on about THAT news), and I ca almost guarantee that it will fix a BUNCH of issues, including the amount of "unnecessary" nerfs.

No idea what high-end guild treated you that way but in all my years I never had that treatment nor heard of anyone getting it.

Edit: Sounds more like the stereotype of a hardcore raider.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

No idea what high-end guild treated you that way but in all my years I never had that treatment nor heard of anyone getting it.

Edit: Sounds more like the stereotype of a hardcore raider.

Some people tend to PUG during things like randoms and that (notice I brought up the kick timer, something that's also been bitched about). Even in PUGs, you shouldn't expect everyone in your group to faceroll content, and when they get chastised by someone, or the entire group, for even dying once, and when you have a good bit of the community acting like absolute pricks just to measure their e-peen, you get the others just wanting the nerf because they are tired of getting crucified for even the slightest error.

And you haven't heard of anyone getting this sort of treatment? Search for the thread about the kick timer in general. You'll see a bunch of reasons why I feel my point holds so much water that the dam's gonna burst soon.

Originally Posted by darkpower

Some people tend to PUG during things like randoms and that (notice I brought up the kick timer, something that's also been bitched about). Even in PUGs, you shouldn't expect everyone in your group to faceroll content, and when they get chastised by someone, or the entire group, for even dying once, and when you have a good bit of the community acting like absolute pricks just to measure their e-peen, you get the others just wanting the nerf because they are tired of getting crucified for even the slightest error.

And you haven't heard of anyone getting this sort of treatment? Search for the thread about the kick timer in general. You'll see a bunch of reasons why I feel my point holds so much water that the dam's gonna burst soon.

LFG group != high-end raiding guild , which heroic content is aimed at.

Originally Posted by myhv

Nice, at least most of hardcore guilds will be able to clear at least 6 HC bosses by the time 4.3 hit. That will reduce the frustration of having to clear firelands every week till the end of the expansion to get more legendaries.

I'm afraid you're wrong there, most "hardcore" guilds HAS already cleared 6/7... its the scrubs / noobs that will have the chance to clear it now, without a "real" challenge, thats the fail part. change norms for scrubs, leave the heroics for hardcore people. thanks.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

LFG group != high-end raiding guild , which heroic content is aimed at.

You're making the assumption that everyone is going to be in high-end raiding guilds, and you're also making the assumption that that's what Blizz made HC for.

1. Blizz DIDN'T! They made it for anyone wanting a greater challenge than normal difficulty, not so Paragon can wave e-peens around constantly.
2. You're focusing in on a tiny bit of the WoW population and saying that they represent the entire community, and then saying that those not in that tiny fraction are bads and casuals (which the latter doesn't equal bad or nerf-demanding), when the former is also a tiny population.

Blizz wants the game to be balanced and also progressive. They want it to be obvious that the latest raid is the toughest raid in the game, and to do that, they might have to nerf something in order to proportion things out. That doesn't make all the nerfs they do necessary, but look at it this way: if they nerfed the HC FL because of the progression faction, imagine how challenging the DW raid will be in comparison. Again, I wouldn't want unbalanced, padded, and cheap difficulty, but I would love a challenge, and Blizz is trying to get us to realize that they wanted progression-style raiding from the start, which is not what Cata had.

And you assuming that Blizz only intended HC for high-end raiding guilds is doing it entirely wrong.

The idea of aspiration is an essential part of being human. Aspiration is seeking to improve yourself, and part of that involves displaying the results of your labour for others to admire. In our real world this can usually represents owning a large house, a Rolex watch, a Hugo Boss suit, an Aston Martin car, or perhaps even giving a large charity donation. We all seek admiration for what we've accomplished. Aspiration is what made me play WoW all those hours many years ago. I wanted the best gear, I wanted to kill bosses and I wanted to have the rarest crafting recipes. I wanted these things because this is an MMO - other people play this game. It wasn't the gear I wanted, it wasn't the satisfaction of the kills I wanted... it was the feeling of knowing I had accomplished what others had not. Arguments such "You can make it harder for yourself by not wearing gear" are simply redundant... we don't play this gear for some single-player gratification, we play it because of human competition, and in the understanding that we all play by the same rules. Giving players these accomplishments out of charity will give only short-term gratification. Players see pretty animations, dialogues and abilities, but these things are nothing compared with the accomplishment of knowing that you've experienced something very few other people have. Look at the trend for the market of luxury goods. Brands such as Louis Vuitton and Chanel are so highly regarded because of their exclusivity. Individuals aspire to own these products, not only because they are superbly designed, but also because they symbolise success fame. By giving everyone, peasant and all, access to these products, are you really doing them a favour? All you do is make a valuable brand into a worthless commodity that the truly successful abandon. The artists need to resist the desire to allow anyone to see their work, and make it an experience which gratifies their players' aspirations. Who even appreciates content if requires no effort to defeat? By trying to appease all players' demands, Blizzard has created a game which lacks a feeling of accomplishment. By making accomplishment so common, it becomes worthless. I've always balanced this game around my personal life. In Vanilla, I found this game truly amazing. 40 man raids may have been hard to organise, but they truly felt epic. By changing to 25 people, it may have satisfied many players, and made things easier to organise, but only helped to destroy what made raiding special. By making tier pieces so easy to earn, it might have pleased virtually everyone, but it only made these pieces worthless. Normal and Heroic raids reduce the exclusivity of encounters. Seeing a boss for the first time should be a special moment, and be a reward for days or weeks of wipes on a previous boss. This makes raiding special. But raiding is not special any more. Anyone can see a boss. Anyone can get epic gear. This is why I haven't played in a such a long time. WoW really was an amazing gear, I logged on and it truly felt like I was progressing my character. But progress means nothing when everything I worked for is reset every few months. In Vanilla, this wasn't so bad because even with a new dungeon, it would take a long time for people to acquire gear. Now, gear is cheap and meaningless. Is this narcissistic? No, it's aspiration.

Originally Posted by darkpower

1. Blizz DIDN'T! They made it for anyone wanting a greater challenge than normal difficulty, not so Paragon can wave e-peens around constantly.

And now they are removing that very challenge, and also making T11 heroics be above most content, assuming same ish nerf as T11 normal got.

There are three particular things that to me, signify when a player has become "good."

1. The player knows how to use his class and role to its fullest potential
2. The player has good situational awareness in encounters
3. The player can coordinate and execute strategies with other players

It is these things that a player needs to help a guild progess, and take down heroic content. I would not call a casual player "bad," however I would call them at least uninterested in one or multiple of these criterion. They play the game to have fun, and play the game however they choose. This is fine. This is why there is a normal mode, and a heroic mode. If Blizzard wants more casual players to see content, then nerfing the normal mode makes absolute sense. But what makes heroic content, heroic? The absolute need for the three criterion. So what can Blizzard nerf on heroic, to truly make it more accessible for casual players? Lower damage and lower health only allow for more mistakes along the encounter. In the end, the only way to truly nerf heroic content is to remove the added abilities and tactics of bosses, which would entirely defeat the concept of the mode.

So it seems that nerfing the heroic modes before the next tier of content will only allow guilds who have finished it sooner say that they did it pre-nerf, rather than before the next tier of content. I think nerfing the normal mode is fine, but they should leave heroic mode alone until patch 4.3.

For all those that QQ about this .... "ITS A GAME " go outside more . That what most people that over the summer months have been doing . Firelands is a blizzard instance for the Single/ugly/unwanted people that have no aspect to other peoples lifes in the summer time . All hail the nerf and lets embrace the social misfits that spent the summer sat infront of the pc monitor , while all us sun loveing natural people enjoyed the sun . love you all XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Infracted.

It really cracks me up that people on this forum call players who aren't 6/7 or in hard modes scrubs or noobs. Just like anything else there are better players than others.

I don't want the nerf and our guild is only 2/7 mostly because many of our raiders quit the game and on our server the larger hardcore guilds are doing ok.

I think normal should be normal so the average guild can do it but struggle/challenging and the hardcore players who blow through normal do hard mode and it is truly hard as hell. Hard mode will only unlock if you complete normal mode.

Great post CONFIG

Why would they nerf heroics? Seriously? Thats the ONLY thing in this game that sets the good players apart from the rest. Seriously? This isn't fair. On my server, were the only horde guild to have killed rags, and it SHOULD STAY THAT WAY, at least til 4.3 comes out. This is rediculously lame. Hell why don't they just make it to where you can buy your damn gear and get it over with. This game is going to shit, and its no one but Blizzard and the whiny casuals faults. Im sure most people raid in WoW for a challenge, im beginning to think fighting the bots and modders on Call of Duty is harder then this game.Its not a challenge when the loot falls out of their heroic ass's.....Nerf the regs so the scrubs can clear, fine, but leave the damn heroics ALONE....Stop screwing over the player base, please.

Originally Posted by VanishO2

So, after 2 months waiting for my token to drop, to finish my 4pc, instead of undergeared, I'm considered bad player. 2 players in my raid with conection problems for a month are bad players instead of players with conection problems, lol. Raiding only 2 nights, 3hour each or less, improving strats and gear to go beyond 3/7 heroic means bad player that deserves nerfs to HEROIC content.

Instead of "gripping this fact" by grabbing better gear in 4.3 and auto-nerf the content because of it, they should nerf it months before? Lol, nice.

I accept a limitation after a full cycle, with the game offering better gear that transform former content in easy content, not by someone else killing it 1st and another "someone else" determining it before ending the cycle.

I have no idea how you make the logical leap to that conclusion. I said you aren't as good as you think you are. That doesn't equal bad. There are grades between A+ and F. It doesn't have to be either or. If you can't down the content before the nerfs, then you aren't an A+ raider. That doesn't mean you fail. When you look at the T11 numbers and see that still, even with all the 378+ gear out there, still only 2% of raiders (not the whole community, just the raiders) have finished T11. Blizzard is trying to fix that.

While you are saying "we just want more time" the numbers show that if you don't finish T12 by the time T13 is done, you likely never will. Blizzard is giving you a better chance of doing that. Instead of aiming for your 4pc set, you can set your sights higher and try for all 5.

---------- Post added 2011-09-16 at 04:43 AM ----------

Originally Posted by d3sign8t3dDruNk

Why would they nerf heroics? Seriously? Thats the ONLY thing in this game that sets the good players apart from the rest. Seriously? This isn't fair. On my server, were the only horde guild to have killed rags, and it SHOULD STAY THAT WAY

This quote cracked me up and sums up the mentality of the anti-nerf crowd.

"Content should be made only difficult enough that I can beat it. I should be grouped with all the other guilds that are better then me, but no guild that is less than me should be in our group. Me and everyone better then me are good. Everyone less then me is bad."

I want to believe that anyone saying this is just antaginizing to flame the thread, however there's just so much of it our there that it's hard to believe that some folks don't actually think like this. Why would it or should it be OK for only 1 guild per server to be able to finish each Tier?