MMO-Champion - Mists of Pandaria Talent Clarifications, Blue Posts, War College, The Curse Word
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Mists of Pandaria Talent Calculator Clarifications
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
I cannot overstate how much we appreciate all of the feedback we get. We spend a lot of time reading it all, and compiling it, and sharing it between teams here. Nonetheless, if the measurement of successful feedback is that the developers implement a suggested idea, then expectations are too high.

We are going to continue to work on all of the talent trees until Mists is released.

What is being done with spell crit for DPS specs?
Our baseline assertion is that all spells and abilities will crit for double damage. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Elemental shaman getting a 2.5x crit multiplier, but the default is 2x for everyone now.

Yes, this means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue Poisons will crit for double damage.

Are all tanks across the board losing a taunt?
We’re currently trying a design where no tanks have AE taunts, other than Mocking Banner (which we intend to be used more as a tool to redirect streams of adds to you).

Rogue (Forums)
The new Shiv will apply concentrated effects of the active utility poison. Those effects are not included in the poison tooltips currently available on the calculator, but here are the current versions:


  • Crippling Poison – Reduces the target’s speed by 70% for 12 seconds.
  • Mind-Numbing Poison – Increases the casting time of an enemy's next spellcast within 8 seconds by 100%.
  • Wound Poison – Reduces the target’s healing received by 50% for 6 seconds.
  • Leeching Poison – Instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health.
  • Paralytic Poison – Roots the target in place for 4 seconds.

Shiv can still proc poison normally when it's triggered.

Also, for those who were curious, it's looking like it will be about a 3 second cast time to swap poisons in combat. So, you won't be flip flopping between poisons on a whim, but if it's really clutch to swap to a different poison, then it's not totally out of the question.

So does this mean that Poisons will still be on the Spell Crit table? In other words, Agility will still not affect their chance to crit?
No. Poisons crit chance will be based on your melee crit chance.

Yeah they should take the stun off of the actual poison and swap it with this effect as the stun is really random.
Well, yes. The random part is kind of important though.

An additional controllable stun that's on a different DR would be excessive. On the other hand, if it's on the same DR as CS and KS then that's... not good. By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.

Despite the title of the thread (which I will callously change), we're interested in player feedback on the shiv change as a whole, though. So what do you think?

Will the thrown weapon talents have a chance to apply one or both active poisons?
We're not sure about this yet. It's more likely that we'll apply damage poisons than the non-lethal ones, especially in the case of Shuriken, because a fairly spammable ranged snare is probably too good.

Sorry, guys. You can still use Shuriken + Deadly Throw though!

If I have Deadly Brew, will Shiv amplify that Crippling Poison effect in addition to my active poisons?
No. Deadly Brew isn't the same as having Crippling actually active.

For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.

How does poison proccing work now, and what does that mean for weapon speed.
Poison procs are largely unchanged, except, y’know, for all poisons being percentage-based in the future. We’re looking to get rid of the "fast 1.4 speed dagger" thing. The plan is for offhand daggers to just be daggers and interchangeable with main hand daggers. So we're anticipating Assassination and Subtlety rogues will use 1.8/1.8 daggers for the most part, while Combat will use a 2.6 main hand and a 1.8 offhand dagger. I know some of you noticed a Main Gauche change, and the intention isn’t a nerf. If it needs adjustment, it’s important to remember that numbers are still in flux.

On a separate note, while we don’t have an elegant system in place for it, we do know that a lot of Combat rogues want to at least have the appearance of dual wielding swords/axes/maces. There are a lot of hurdles, but maybe we’ll find a good way to deliver on that. No promises though! So, again, don’t get your hopes up too high.

So, how about an offensive dispel using the shiv system (perhaps as an alternative to Mind Numbing)?
It's something we might consider, but if too many people have access to an effect like that, then magic buffs are increasingly devalued, and that causes all kinds of problems. For example, something like Hand of Protection is cool, but significantly less meaningful if too many classes out there can remove it with a button press. So, we'll think about it, but don't get your hopes up.

Is Mind Numbing nerfed, now that it won’t affect all casts for the duration?
That's a bit of a misunderstanding. Base Mind-Numbing is unchanged and works as it does now. The new Shiv effect stacks on top of the base Mind-Numbing, and is more than triply effective on the single next spellcast.

Any chance of a sweet UI element warning the rogue that he’s approaching 5 stacks of paralytic poison, or letting him know that it went off?
Making it easier to track buffs and debuffs in the UI, including using the Spell Alert system, is something we're always looking at.

Y U NERF CRIPPLING?
Sadly, because it was too good -- which is pretty much the same reason anything ever gets nerfed. Basically, we're looking to chill out some of the passive, automatically-applied snares on some classes get because there's no real gameplay to them beyond just I touch you and you're snared.

Crippling is an important tool though, and we didn't want to take it away entirely. By lowering the base snare and allowing Shiv to still apply the -70% form, snaring opponents or kiting other melee classes that also have snares becomes something you'll need to think about and manage.

Is Crippling going to last 12 seconds in PVP now, instead of 8 seconds?
Nay. PvP durations are capped at 8 (and nothing should break that rule), but PvP durations aren’t shown in the tooltips.

Under the proposed system, it looks like it won’t be possible to take both Paralytic and Leeching Poison. Will we have to have to choose between Paralytic and Crippling?
You can take both Paralytic and Leeching, but you'll be able to actively make use of one at a time. That said, switching poisons isn't necessarily impossible in the heat of combat -- the cast time on swapping will be fairly short.

That said, we're taking a look at the decision involved in the current placement of the different Poison-related talents, and that's something we may reevaluate. Still early days yet – and that applies to everything in this list.

But Daxx! RAWR RAIDING! What's this PvP nonsense?
We'd like Shiv to be useful when raiding too, and increasing the availability of such effects makes it easier to design encounters that permit them to shine. It bears mentioning that, even now, the various Shiv effects could be useful in existing raid encounters. There’s no reason to expect that they couldn't be useful in Mists raid design too.

Also, there's more to PvE than raiding. Just because a talent isn't useful when you're fighting Ultraxion doesn't mean it isn't useful in PvE at large. There's still leveling (remember, tier 1 talents should ideally be relevant and useful to a level 15 player!), outdoor dailies, the upcoming challenge modes, and more to consider.

Sooooo… Does this mean that rogue damage might go up if we lose some control/mobility/survivability?
We want rogue PvE damage to remain top-tier. But yes, if rogues end up with less control or mobility or survivability, and they have to choose among those areas, then that allows us to safely improve their damage potential in PvP while keeping the class balanced overall.

Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison?
There's a chance, we'll have a look. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Mage (Forums)
Fear not! Mages will still have all their Teleports and Portals. At this point, we decided to hide them from the talent calculator to reduce clutter.

What is "base mana regeneration"? How does mana regen work for casters (or mages)?
Healers get a significant amount of mana regeneration from Spirit, even during combat. Additionally, all mana users have a small amount of mana regeneration -- currently about 1% of maximum mana per second. With Invocation, that 1%/sec is removed. Things like Innervate will still allow you to regenerate mana, but you won’t passively regenerate any with Invocation.

What is the range for Alter time concerning the "moves too far away" part?
100 yards. It’s mostly just to indicate that it won’t reverse taking a portal to Dalaran or something.

Is AM a proc?
Yes, Arcane Missiles is still activated via a proc from your other direct damage spells.

Does Arcane Bomb have a target limit?
Currently, no. We’re hoping it won’t be needed.

Invisibility and Greater Invisibility say that you’re “untargettable”. Does that mean that we’re not actually invisible anymore?
No, you still turn invisible, just it has been. It still breaks on damage. You still are completely cleared of threat when you turn invisible (either after 3sec for Invisibility, or instantly for Greater Invisibility).

For Rune of Power, if the mage has two already out will we be able to cast another one or do we have to wait till the first one is gone?
Casting a third will replace the first. This is similar to how Wild Mushrooms works for druids right now. By the way, two Runes of Power will not stack.

Warrior (Forums)
Traditionally AE threat is hardest to maintain for warriors, how will this carry forward in MOP?
Thunder Clap is free for Protection warriors, and it applies a dot. Shield Slam and auto attack to generate rage for Shield Block.

Most other offensive attacks are free (for Protection), except for Heroic Strike and Cleave, which are intended to be used only in times of excess rage (which should be less common than today, but still occur with reasonable frequency).

Improving tanking rotations is always challenging. If tanks have too many abilities to manage, then they are overwhelmed in fights that require a lot of boss positioning or add management. If tanks have too few abilities or a very simplified resource, then they get bored on single-target boss fights with limited movement.

Part of our design intent is to have tank resources tie into survivability instead of threat, since we (and tanks) place more emphasis on the former.

Priest (Forums)
The intent of Spirit Shell is to provide a frequent-use absorb that recreates some of the gameplay where Disc priests put absorbs on lots of their teammates. This was a style many Disc priests told us they enjoyed, but was difficult to balance with Power Word: Shield (since PW:S is instant).

At this point, think of Spirit Shell as Heal and Power Word: Shield as Flash Heal.

Evangelism is a spec spell for both Holy and Disc (at least for the moment – things could still change). The talent calculator appears to be incorrect on this. Shadow has Dark Evangelism.

Death Knight (Forums)
But we loved Corpse Explosion!
Yes. You do. So do we. Unfortunately, requiring a corpse felt like too steep a requirement for a competitive talent. We would like to still add Corpse Explosion in some form as a glyph. In the meantime, hey presto! - Unholy Blight is back.

Paladin (Forums)
There are some incorrect mana costs displayed in the talent calculator for some Protection and Retribution Paladins spells right now. For example, Consecration actually costs 7% of base mana, not 22%. *At the moment; subject to change.

They currently are designed such that they are mana positive while doing their damage and going through their tanking rotations, and stay near full mana the whole time. Mana should not be a consideration to their rotation, rather, it will act as a limit on how much off-healing and other utility spells they can cast.

Does Holy Insight mean Intellect plate is going away?
No. That passive (and appropriate classes should have an equivalent) gives casters larger mana pools than non-casters of the same class. Mana no longer increases with Intellect, but we still want to make sure that, for example, a Holy paladin can cast more heals than a Retribution paladin.

Druid (Forums)
  • The Druid will select a raid or party member and cast Symbiosis on them.
  • The target cannot be another Druid.
  • The target gains a buff that tells them what spell they have temporarily learned, and that spell temporarily appears in their spellbook, and they can drag it to an action bar.
  • The Druid’s Symbiosis button will become the ability they gained from the target class.
  • The Symbiosis link is cancelled if: the Druid clicks off the Symbiosis buff, or the Druid or the target changes continents or enters or exits an instance, or the Druid or the target changes talent specializations.
  • Symbiosis fails to cast if Symbiosis is already active on that target.
  • Symbiosis cannot be cast in combat.
  • For the non-Druid target, the icon will revert to a placeholder (uncastable) Symbiosis icon when Symbiosis ends, but will become the Symbiosis-granted ability again the next time Symbiosis is cast on that target.
  • The ability gained from Symbiosis is always something chosen to match the Druid’s specialization and the target’s combat role.
  • The target always gets the same spell unless they change combat roles. A Druid of a given specialization always gets the same spell from each different class. If there is a change of specs, there is a change of spell.

Here are some examples of spells gained through Symbiosis. The spells shared focus on utility, cooldowns, and survival. (Adding Fireball to a Moonkin’s rotation sounds cool on paper, but wouldn’t actually be fun in the long run.)

Balance: Chains of Ice, Mirror Image, Mass Dispel
Feral: Feign Death (Play Dead!), Frost Nova, Soul Swap
Guardian: Ice Trap, Fear Ward, Consecration
Restoration: Ice Block, Hand of Sacrifice, Leap of Faith
Hunter: Dash
Warlock: Rejuvenation
Holy Paladin: Rebirth
Arms/Fury Warrior: Enrage
Enhancement/Elemental Shaman: Solar Beam

There are a lot more coming, but we'll keep some surprises for now, and many are still subject to change after testing. Including all of those just listed.

Warlock (Forums)
  • Ember Tap will be received at a later level and will cost Embers.
  • Conflagrate has a 2.0 spell power coefficient (still working on this; subject to change).
  • Malady is a level 3 spell that is replaced by Immolate (Destruction) or Corruption (Demonology/Affliction).
  • Dark Soul is a replacement for Demon Soul based on spec. We’re experimenting with the exact mechanics.

Wild Imps has not been cut. The code for it simply wasn't ready in time for this talent calculator update. Here, I'll show it to you!



Here is what Dark Soul looks like today:


Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Simple New Talent Trees
Talking with a lot of fellow Pver's and there has been a lot of talk that Blizzard is going to reduce the amount of PvE in the next expansion...
We've never quantified the amount of content coming in Mists of Pandaria, much less stated we plan to produce less content in the next expansion than we have in previous expansions. We've mentioned adding a few PvE gameplay elements in Mists.

Wow, gear with no stats to make players equal...
No, the point of gear with no stats is not to make players equal. IN ADDITION to the PvE gear progression you typically see in dungeon and raid tiers, in Mists we're adding PvE Challenges to award cosmetic-only sets. These sets aren't meant to replace items/sets from dungeons and raids that increase your character's power. They're meant to be hard to get, entirely optional, and another way for characters to distinguish themselves from others through their accomplishments.

a talent tree that my kids could pick out
I'm sure your kid could press buttons and make a talent build under the current system too. That doesn't mean it's going to be optimal, or even viable. This type of feedback isn't very interesting or useful.

Can't we all agree that it's the strive to be the best and or to be better that is what really keeps us playing this game? If it comes to be and at the end of the day I'm not any better then the 8 year old that started playing yesterday, I will stop playing this game along with many other people...
My primary goal when logging into World of Warcraft isn't to be the best. If by better, you mean acquiring more powerful items or higher character levels, I guess that's part of the drive. That's not being stripped from PvE in Mists of Pandaria, contrary to the talks in which you've been involved.

On that note there has also been talk of a World of Warcraft 2, hmm now this sounds like a good idea with a great focus on PvE wouldn't this help solve everyone's PvP / PvE problems?
I'm not sure I understand how the solution to the fabricated problem of a lack of PvE content -- in an expansion you haven't played yet -- is to make a completely new game. We're focused on developing additional expansion content for World of Warcraft, not designing a sequel to the first title.

There has been so much lore that has been skipped the possibilities for this could be endless
We don't really see it as much of a problem that we have a lot of story at our disposal to use in developing new content. But we also don't need to reinvent the game to explore that lore.

Nonetheless, Zarhym, isn't the entire point of the MoP talent system that, for most practical purposes, optimal or viable specs will no longer exist? Shouldn't this hypothetical "kid" be ideally able to randomly press buttons and come up with a viable talent load-out which only differs from others in subjective "fun value"?
Sort of. I wasn't really interested in entertaining the OP's argument though, because the kid* who blindly chooses a potentially viable build isn't going to blindly know how to play the class well.

*Referring to the usage of the word in the OP's post, which I presume is defined as someone who should be too young to figure out how a WoW class is successfully played.

So the idea behind players being rewarded based on the efforts is basically being tossed to the side now? It at least appears that way with features like LFR which allows players to go afk and intentionally leach off of other players and collect rewards that improve their "power", while the new challenge modes which require effort from each individual player working together as a team just rewards cosmetic rewards.
You make this claim as though the Raid Finder is synonymous with Heroic raids, in terms of providing the highest quality gear in the game. That's not the case. Even with Raid Finder and PvE Challenges in Mists of Pandaria, the best sets in the game (stat-wise) will still be rather difficult to obtain.

Just one of the factors that has players dismayed at the direction the developers are taking the game.
You'd have a really hard time arguing your last sentence on behalf of the entire playerbase. I could argue there are players who are dismayed right now that Peddlefeet's butt isn't as firm as it should be. Is that a larger argument about "the direction the developers are taking the game"?

If you weren't interested in his argument, maybe responding to it was a bad idea? Just sayin.
I took eight of his words and said they didn't make for an interesting argument. No, I don't think it was a bad idea to address the other points of the OP just because I didn't find his "my kid could do it" argument interesting.

And you're not saying, you're asking (though surely I'm to assume it's rhetorical). And why does everyone need to follow up saying something with "just sayin" these days? I know you're just sayin'. You just said it!

^ I just typed and posted those words right up there. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Buffs... Where are they?
At this point in the development cycle, there hasn't yet been a finish put on buffs. As we've said elsewhere, we wanted to get the talent calculator updated sooner, rather than wait around for more details on related subjects to be fully developed.

We're considering publishing a developer's blog on the subject of buffs as quickly as we can. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Ask CDev #3: Questions!
Creative Development once again opens the floodgates for questions pertaining to the lore of the Warcraft universe!

Our last two "Ask CDev" projects generated thousands of unique questions across all the different regions, but ultimately the Creative Development team was able to sift through the sea of inquiries to focus on the questions with the juiciest answers. You can see the results of the last two "Ask CDev" endeavors here:

Ask CDev #1: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1008430853

Ask CDev #2: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2721372142

The rules of engagement this year are as follows:
  • No restriction on the subject of your post, but keep in mind that questions that may be answered by the release of Mists of Pandaria will likely be overlooked; we don't want to spoil surprises!
  • Please only ask one question in each post. If your post has more than one question (or if your question contains multiple parts), it will be overlooked. Also, it is recommended that you check the thread to see if your question has already been asked; duplicate questions will not have a greater chance of being answered.
  • Questions will only be accepted for the first seven days, and the thread will be locked at 11:59 p.m. PDT on February 22.
  • While the thread is open for questions, forum members are encouraged to go through the thread and "Like" or "Dislike" posts; voting on a post will increase or decrease (respectively) the probability of that question being answered.
(Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

World of Warcraft War College – Warsong Gulch
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
This week, the topic of discussion is: Warsong Gulch – Which tactics have you found most effective in Warsong Gulch? Which winning team compositions and strategies do you use when playing Rated? What tips or tricks have you discovered? What common mistakes have you witnessed?

The battlefields of World of Warcraft are littered with the bones of those who have become casualties in the ongoing conflict between the Horde and the Alliance. You do not need to become one of them. One of the keys to victory is knowledge, and that is where the World of Warcraft War College enters the picture. In these discussions between players, you can learn and share strategies with other players to improve your tactics and improve your odds of emerging victorious from the field of battle.

Are you a veteran Gladiator with countless victories tallied? Are you new to World of Warcraft and striving to improve your PvP skills? In this weekly feature, we invite players of all skill levels to ask questions, share tips and tactics, and join a conversation dedicated to surviving and thriving in World of Warcraft PvP.

Don’t forget to up-vote forum posts that are on-topic and helpful!

The Curse Word Monthly Newsletter
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This month's newsletter (which will be sent out on February 21, 2012) will include a free month of Curse Premium! Simply by subscribing to the Curse Word and reading the newsletter this month, you can enjoy all the great features of premium for one month. Look for the code in the next newsletter and follow the instructions to apply it to your account!

This article was originally published in forum thread: Mists of Pandaria Talent Clarifications, Blue Posts, War College, The Curse Word started by chaud View original post
Comments 81 Comments
  1. Yseraboy's Avatar
    Dark Soul: Knowledge = costs 15,000 mana, has a 2-minute cooldown, and increases your Mastery by 30 for 20-seconds.Is it just me, or is that a lot of mana to spend on 20-sec on +30 Mastery... The other two are 30%, so I assume [always dangerous] that is it supposed to be Mastery increased by 30%, and not just by 30.
  1. Polarthief's Avatar
    Omg. My thread, which got a blue post, is now on MMO-Champ. I am happyface :3 Also: Darn, wish I could stack 2 Runes of Power
  1. runeb1980@hotmail.com's Avatar
    "Mists of Pandaria Talent Calculator Clarifications" I LOL'd If you fail at multiple choice with no wrong answer, you have a problem.
  1. Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    This is the questions you get when american kids get to ask questions :/ I only see "whine whine whine, you don't do exactly what me and 5 others want bla bla bla" I'm from Europe and I like the hunter talents, the pve scenarios and that pandarens are finally being put into the game.

    Yay, because being european means you're better than Americans and your opinion counts more.....
  1. Adriah's Avatar
    Symbiosis seems to be a really interesting ability, I look forward to trying that out. The example of giving ferals frost nova made me chuckle too
  1. Xcuse's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Yseraboy View Post
    Dark Soul: Knowledge = costs 15,000 mana, has a 2-minute cooldown, and increases your Mastery by 30 for 20-seconds.Is it just me, or is that a lot of mana to spend on 20-sec on +30 Mastery... The other two are 30%, so I assume [always dangerous] that is it supposed to be Mastery increased by 30%, and not just by 30.
    It's 30 Mastery, not 30 Mastery Rating. Right now it'd probably be more than a 100% increase of your current mastery.
  1. Coldkil's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcatraz_ View Post
    The new poison stuff within Shiv is good stuff, Mainly the root thing. Hopefully it doesn't get nerfed.
    You know that they are really, really good.

    I expect nerfs ;P
  1. Kaleredar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Deavande View Post
    No we will all go to "elitistjerks" to see what ones we have to change for each fight.
    So it'll be even more difficult, because we'll have to type in the extra letters required for the individual boss names, instead of just typing in the spec and role once at the beginning of each patch like we do now.

    Besides, it's much harder to judge the raw DPS output of "situational" abilities, which almost all of these are.
  1. miracles's Avatar
    I just hope that these changes dont ruin mages, I have to say I dont understand these changes yet but it worry me to see that they happy about we still got teleportation, just remember we cant kill a boss with that. I played mage for 3+ year and I love it, even though when we get a buff its getting removed again because of whinning, we have atleast been near top in dps anyways ( as i suppose we meant too be, since we are a pure dps class). I see how other classses get big improvement in their dps, so I guess mages get that too right?
  1. Kathranis's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Machriren View Post
    3 times i asked blizzard why they didnt update the lore regarding Quel Thelas and the Azuremyst isles when they redid the rest of cataclysm, and how, subsequently, the game wasnt updated to allow flying. 3 times they deleted my comment with no reason why, Despite the fact that on page 7 of that CDEV questions thing, up until about 2 hours ago, someone had posted saying, You suck. I'm pretty miffed at blizz TBH
    Because you're asking a question about quest and zone design, which CDev doesn't have any sort of direct control over.

    This has also already been explained officially. It was even in the behind the scenes DVD when the expansion first came out.

    Quel'thalas and the -myst Isles don't have flying enabled because they're part of the Outland map and world server.

    Blizzard did some preliminary work moving them onto the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor map and servers, but with the amount of work needed to pull this off (including moving large amounts of terrain, doodads, and NPCs, and remodeling Silvermoon City and Zul'Aman to accommodate flight) it was determined that they wouldn't have been able to finish it in time for Cataclysm's launch, so they decided to focus only on revamping the zones from classic WoW.

    Quel'thalas and the draenei starting zones did get some minor updates, with new intro narration, additional flight paths, and some alterations to early quests.

    Additionally, if you want to view a more modern look at the Isle of Quel'danas, you can get yourself a Broken Hilt and do the Quel'delar quest chain, which includes visiting a phased "modern" version of Quel'danas and the Sunwell, as it's being rebuilt and repaired by the blood elves.
  1. Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    So it'll be even more difficult, because we'll have to type in the extra letters required for the individual boss names, instead of just typing in the spec and role once at the beginning of each patch like we do now.

    Besides, it's much harder to judge the raw DPS output of "situational" abilities, which almost all of these are.



    So they want to make it harder for us to choose which talents to use? I thought it was the opposite. Not to mention, most of the talents look like they are pointed towards one aspect of the game (pvp/pve), so I don't think it will be much harder, if at all. People said the same in cata. The new talent system is going to cut out the 'cookie cutter' and make everyone choose what they want, when they want!!!!!
  1. SinR's Avatar
    Yay for nothing at all about Shaman from Blizzard! BRB, rerolling a Death Knight
  1. Gilian's Avatar
    So the idea behind players being rewarded based on the efforts is basically being tossed to the side now? It at least appears that way with features like LFR which allows players to go afk and intentionally leach off of other players and collect rewards that improve their "power", while the new challenge modes which require effort from each individual player working together as a team just rewards cosmetic rewards.
    You make this claim as though the Raid Finder is synonymous with Heroic raids, in terms of providing the highest quality gear in the game. That's not the case. Even with Raid Finder and PvE Challenges in Mists of Pandaria, the best sets in the game (stat-wise) will still be rather difficult to obtain.
    He knows exactly what he meant. Keep pulling that lame hardmode card. If you think hardmodes and 25 man raids with their very low rewards, compared to the very easy normal mode and extremely easy LFR and the 10 man raids which costs far less time to organize, are enough for people who want to spend more time in the game you are pretty ignorant.
    People are not going to try hard for some cosmetic stuff for ever. When you are better and put in more effort/time you should be more powerfull. In WoW this is barely the case.

    It's funny, they lose so many subs and then when someone complains (which in the end can make a good point) they brush it off like this.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 09:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    So they want to make it harder for us to choose which talents to use? I thought it was the opposite. Not to mention, most of the talents look like they are pointed towards one aspect of the game (pvp/pve), so I don't think it will be much harder, if at all. People said the same in cata. The new talent system is going to cut out the 'cookie cutter' and make everyone choose what they want, when they want!!!!!
    It's not going to be harder. Maybe when you have to choose between situational usefull talents on bossfights to min/max and gain 100 dps when you are doing 50k dps is a hard decision. But the impact they have is so small that no one will notice.

    And like you say some tiers are plain pve/pvp choices just like some of the last tiers are just a choice between a tanking talent, AoE damage or singletarget damage talent. Real hard choice...

    They made these talents because it is easier for them to balance and it's even more noob/bad friendly. People will still laugh their ass off when they see some idiot dpsing with shockwave or an AoE taunt.
  1. mister20's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Yay, because being european means you're better than Americans and your opinion counts more.....
    That is correct, sir.
  1. Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    It's not going to be harder. Maybe when you have to choose between situational usefull talents on bossfights to min/max and gain 100 dps when you are doing 50k dps is a hard decision. But the impact they have is so small that no one will notice.

    And like you say some tiers are plain pve/pvp choices just like some of the last tiers are just a choice between a tanking talent, AoE damage or singletarget damage talent. Real hard choice...

    They made these talents because it is easier for them to balance and it's even more noob/bad friendly. People will still laugh their ass off when they see some idiot dpsing with shockwave or an AoE taunt.
    I totally agree. I'm not terribly against the new talents, or changes overall. I also wasn't in love with the old Classic WoW's talents either. But I don't want these changes to take place under a false banner like "making tough situational choices." Thats silly. An overhaul is great if they would just call it that.

    All those who are crapping their pants over "tough choices inbound" need to get over themselves.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 03:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mister20 View Post
    That is correct, sir.

    Do you really want to have that discussion? Bad trolololol.
  1. Kaleredar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    So they want to make it harder for us to choose which talents to use? I thought it was the opposite. Not to mention, most of the talents look like they are pointed towards one aspect of the game (pvp/pve), so I don't think it will be much harder, if at all. People said the same in cata. The new talent system is going to cut out the 'cookie cutter' and make everyone choose what they want, when they want!!!!!
    No, I was using a sarcastic flare to poke fun at people that would prefer the current talent system purely because they think it's "harder" to choose talents "right," and is therefore better.

    As for the talents themselves, Blizzard is hoping that people will select talents that sound fun to them to use, as they wont be easily relegated to "if you want to max your DPS, take X situational talent." So they're edging towards making them a non-issue, versus their current state, in which they themselves are incredibly important, but are basically made a non-issue through the use of the internet. As it stands now, the system is basically like paying a tribute of 30g for a talent reset of 85, and then clicking 41 buttons ceremonially in a sequence given to you by a website to get that part of your character squared away until GC decides your class needs a nerf.
  1. Bahska's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    So they want to make it harder for us to choose which talents to use? I thought it was the opposite. Not to mention, most of the talents look like they are pointed towards one aspect of the game (pvp/pve), so I don't think it will be much harder, if at all. People said the same in cata. The new talent system is going to cut out the 'cookie cutter' and make everyone choose what they want, when they want!!!!!
    There giving you more situational choices, take druid tier 1 for an example feline swiftness would be awesome for a ragnaros type fight but wild charge might be better for V&T (flame breath, second boss in BoT) all 3 choices in that tier could be great for pvp.
    I only really know druids so that's why i use that as an example, the whole tree has some tough choices for both pve and pvp except level 90 cause one is pointless and one talent is obvious pve but both of the good talents could be good in pvp.

    Not all tiers are gonna have clear choices on what you should take but some tiers will have obvious choices, sure someone will figure out whats "best" on a per fight situation based on there strategy but choosing a talent that you like better probably wont limit you in MoP as much as doing that would right now

    Right now you don't really have choices cause if you don't take that dps/hps increase talent your a baddie.
    In MoP your choosing utility so your choice is based more on play style or what the fight and your group needs instead of 15% mana reduction (as an example)

    Even if someone figures out what every class should use on every single fight im not sure how feline swiftness (15% increased speed) would be that much different then wild charge (charge to a ally's location) except a playstyle choice.
  1. Dee-Jay Delicious's Avatar
    I really love when Blizzard so openly discusses their design intentions and goals. That what I really loved about Ghostcrawler and Co. during WotLK days.
  1. Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bahska View Post
    There giving you more situational choices, take druid tier 1 for an example feline swiftness would be awesome for a ragnaros type fight but wild charge might be better for V&T (flame breath, second boss in BoT) all 3 choices in that tier could be great for pvp.
    I only really know druids so that's why i use that as an example, the whole tree has some tough choices for both pve and pvp except level 90 cause one is pointless and one talent is obvious pve but both of the good talents could be good in pvp.

    Not all tiers are gonna have clear choices on what you should take but some tiers will have obvious choices, sure someone will figure out whats "best" on a per fight situation based on there strategy but choosing a talent that you like better probably wont limit you in MoP as much as doing that would right now

    Right now you don't really have choices cause if you don't take that dps/hps increase talent your a baddie.
    In MoP your choosing utility so your choice is based more on play style or what the fight and your group needs instead of 15% mana reduction (as an example)

    Even if someone figures out what every class should use on every single fight im not sure how feline swiftness (15% increased speed) would be that much different then wild charge (charge to a ally's location) except a playstyle choice.


    This is EXACTLY what people said about the cata changes. Almost to the T. Many posts and people I spoke to were convinced the cata changes would fix the cookie cutter specs, and make it to where you can make fun choices and not lose dps by choosing what you want.

    So these changes make it to where instead of looking at a website for my spec 90% of the time, I'll have to look at a website for ever boss or situation I'm in? That sounds like the same thing to me. I'm not dogging the changes. A lot of them seem neat. I like the idea of, for instance of Rogues needing to choose between Prep and Shadowstep. I just don't like how some people hail the changes with the banner of making things more making interesting choices and utility. I think rogues who prefer ShS will choose it and Rogues who like Prep will stick with it.

    Looking over at the Druid tier, how many of the tier actually have you making a hard choice for healing in raid? Or Tanking in one? I feel like for the most part there will be clear cut choices depending on your role in the raid or pvp group comp.
  1. Okacz's Avatar
    It's great that Blizzard decided to discuss changes with players. But their approach is kinda bad. They have one statement, and they know whatever players are going to say, there will be no changes. PvE rewarding was made a problem in current patch, when LFR came up and "pvp tards", afkers and ninjas proceeded to gain EXTREME tier bonuses. For free, for 0 effort. Doing normal dungeons is more challanging. Blizzard closed thier eyes on players who wanna feel rewarded. Im starting to feel like in childengarden, where after a small painting contest the caretaker just says "You were all great!". Come on, even the feeling of wearing current tier on your character shall feel like an achievement. Seeing all LFR scammers wearing the same things as you makes this feeling worse.

    And things are going to get worse. LFR stays, and is probably going to expand. I wont be suprised to see it replacing normal mode, leaving only HC for better players. Challenge mode provides a challenge (as it says), but does not give appropriate rewards to effort put. Transmog items like cowboy hats may be a reward in world events, not challenges. Is WoW trying to change into community of children, enthusiasted that they can look like cowboys in game?

    And talents... Well, some of them are neat. I really like hunter changes. But again - how is Blizzard even considering that there wont be 1 build for PvE, 1 build for PvP? Each of offensive abilities can be easily measured, checking which provides best dps gives you a perfect tree. Some talents are simply bound to spec. And those "utility talents"... come on. To begin with, they dont matter at all. Great choice. Secondly, in current trees you nearly always have some spare points that cant be spent in PvE - efficient way, and need to be put somewhere else. And moreover, even they look sometimes simply more OP than another. Builds are going to be more copy-paste from the internet than in any expansion in WoW.

    To sum up, im quite dissappointed by Blizzards approach. Im not a "hardcore raider". I just enjoy being rewarded, feeling that I've achieved something in game. And so is any other player. It may sound like I'm a bad person, but seeing the same model of armor on somebody, who does not know how to play his class, or simply afks on encounters puts me down. And it's the main reason why I don't like current patch.

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