MMO-Champion - Mists of Pandaria Talent Clarifications, Blue Posts, War College, The Curse Word
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Mists of Pandaria Talent Calculator Clarifications
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
I cannot overstate how much we appreciate all of the feedback we get. We spend a lot of time reading it all, and compiling it, and sharing it between teams here. Nonetheless, if the measurement of successful feedback is that the developers implement a suggested idea, then expectations are too high.

We are going to continue to work on all of the talent trees until Mists is released.

What is being done with spell crit for DPS specs?
Our baseline assertion is that all spells and abilities will crit for double damage. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Elemental shaman getting a 2.5x crit multiplier, but the default is 2x for everyone now.

Yes, this means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue Poisons will crit for double damage.

Are all tanks across the board losing a taunt?
We’re currently trying a design where no tanks have AE taunts, other than Mocking Banner (which we intend to be used more as a tool to redirect streams of adds to you).

Rogue (Forums)
The new Shiv will apply concentrated effects of the active utility poison. Those effects are not included in the poison tooltips currently available on the calculator, but here are the current versions:


  • Crippling Poison – Reduces the target’s speed by 70% for 12 seconds.
  • Mind-Numbing Poison – Increases the casting time of an enemy's next spellcast within 8 seconds by 100%.
  • Wound Poison – Reduces the target’s healing received by 50% for 6 seconds.
  • Leeching Poison – Instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health.
  • Paralytic Poison – Roots the target in place for 4 seconds.

Shiv can still proc poison normally when it's triggered.

Also, for those who were curious, it's looking like it will be about a 3 second cast time to swap poisons in combat. So, you won't be flip flopping between poisons on a whim, but if it's really clutch to swap to a different poison, then it's not totally out of the question.

So does this mean that Poisons will still be on the Spell Crit table? In other words, Agility will still not affect their chance to crit?
No. Poisons crit chance will be based on your melee crit chance.

Yeah they should take the stun off of the actual poison and swap it with this effect as the stun is really random.
Well, yes. The random part is kind of important though.

An additional controllable stun that's on a different DR would be excessive. On the other hand, if it's on the same DR as CS and KS then that's... not good. By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.

Despite the title of the thread (which I will callously change), we're interested in player feedback on the shiv change as a whole, though. So what do you think?

Will the thrown weapon talents have a chance to apply one or both active poisons?
We're not sure about this yet. It's more likely that we'll apply damage poisons than the non-lethal ones, especially in the case of Shuriken, because a fairly spammable ranged snare is probably too good.

Sorry, guys. You can still use Shuriken + Deadly Throw though!

If I have Deadly Brew, will Shiv amplify that Crippling Poison effect in addition to my active poisons?
No. Deadly Brew isn't the same as having Crippling actually active.

For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.

How does poison proccing work now, and what does that mean for weapon speed.
Poison procs are largely unchanged, except, y’know, for all poisons being percentage-based in the future. We’re looking to get rid of the "fast 1.4 speed dagger" thing. The plan is for offhand daggers to just be daggers and interchangeable with main hand daggers. So we're anticipating Assassination and Subtlety rogues will use 1.8/1.8 daggers for the most part, while Combat will use a 2.6 main hand and a 1.8 offhand dagger. I know some of you noticed a Main Gauche change, and the intention isn’t a nerf. If it needs adjustment, it’s important to remember that numbers are still in flux.

On a separate note, while we don’t have an elegant system in place for it, we do know that a lot of Combat rogues want to at least have the appearance of dual wielding swords/axes/maces. There are a lot of hurdles, but maybe we’ll find a good way to deliver on that. No promises though! So, again, don’t get your hopes up too high.

So, how about an offensive dispel using the shiv system (perhaps as an alternative to Mind Numbing)?
It's something we might consider, but if too many people have access to an effect like that, then magic buffs are increasingly devalued, and that causes all kinds of problems. For example, something like Hand of Protection is cool, but significantly less meaningful if too many classes out there can remove it with a button press. So, we'll think about it, but don't get your hopes up.

Is Mind Numbing nerfed, now that it won’t affect all casts for the duration?
That's a bit of a misunderstanding. Base Mind-Numbing is unchanged and works as it does now. The new Shiv effect stacks on top of the base Mind-Numbing, and is more than triply effective on the single next spellcast.

Any chance of a sweet UI element warning the rogue that he’s approaching 5 stacks of paralytic poison, or letting him know that it went off?
Making it easier to track buffs and debuffs in the UI, including using the Spell Alert system, is something we're always looking at.

Y U NERF CRIPPLING?
Sadly, because it was too good -- which is pretty much the same reason anything ever gets nerfed. Basically, we're looking to chill out some of the passive, automatically-applied snares on some classes get because there's no real gameplay to them beyond just I touch you and you're snared.

Crippling is an important tool though, and we didn't want to take it away entirely. By lowering the base snare and allowing Shiv to still apply the -70% form, snaring opponents or kiting other melee classes that also have snares becomes something you'll need to think about and manage.

Is Crippling going to last 12 seconds in PVP now, instead of 8 seconds?
Nay. PvP durations are capped at 8 (and nothing should break that rule), but PvP durations aren’t shown in the tooltips.

Under the proposed system, it looks like it won’t be possible to take both Paralytic and Leeching Poison. Will we have to have to choose between Paralytic and Crippling?
You can take both Paralytic and Leeching, but you'll be able to actively make use of one at a time. That said, switching poisons isn't necessarily impossible in the heat of combat -- the cast time on swapping will be fairly short.

That said, we're taking a look at the decision involved in the current placement of the different Poison-related talents, and that's something we may reevaluate. Still early days yet – and that applies to everything in this list.

But Daxx! RAWR RAIDING! What's this PvP nonsense?
We'd like Shiv to be useful when raiding too, and increasing the availability of such effects makes it easier to design encounters that permit them to shine. It bears mentioning that, even now, the various Shiv effects could be useful in existing raid encounters. There’s no reason to expect that they couldn't be useful in Mists raid design too.

Also, there's more to PvE than raiding. Just because a talent isn't useful when you're fighting Ultraxion doesn't mean it isn't useful in PvE at large. There's still leveling (remember, tier 1 talents should ideally be relevant and useful to a level 15 player!), outdoor dailies, the upcoming challenge modes, and more to consider.

Sooooo… Does this mean that rogue damage might go up if we lose some control/mobility/survivability?
We want rogue PvE damage to remain top-tier. But yes, if rogues end up with less control or mobility or survivability, and they have to choose among those areas, then that allows us to safely improve their damage potential in PvP while keeping the class balanced overall.

Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison?
There's a chance, we'll have a look. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Mage (Forums)
Fear not! Mages will still have all their Teleports and Portals. At this point, we decided to hide them from the talent calculator to reduce clutter.

What is "base mana regeneration"? How does mana regen work for casters (or mages)?
Healers get a significant amount of mana regeneration from Spirit, even during combat. Additionally, all mana users have a small amount of mana regeneration -- currently about 1% of maximum mana per second. With Invocation, that 1%/sec is removed. Things like Innervate will still allow you to regenerate mana, but you won’t passively regenerate any with Invocation.

What is the range for Alter time concerning the "moves too far away" part?
100 yards. It’s mostly just to indicate that it won’t reverse taking a portal to Dalaran or something.

Is AM a proc?
Yes, Arcane Missiles is still activated via a proc from your other direct damage spells.

Does Arcane Bomb have a target limit?
Currently, no. We’re hoping it won’t be needed.

Invisibility and Greater Invisibility say that you’re “untargettable”. Does that mean that we’re not actually invisible anymore?
No, you still turn invisible, just it has been. It still breaks on damage. You still are completely cleared of threat when you turn invisible (either after 3sec for Invisibility, or instantly for Greater Invisibility).

For Rune of Power, if the mage has two already out will we be able to cast another one or do we have to wait till the first one is gone?
Casting a third will replace the first. This is similar to how Wild Mushrooms works for druids right now. By the way, two Runes of Power will not stack.

Warrior (Forums)
Traditionally AE threat is hardest to maintain for warriors, how will this carry forward in MOP?
Thunder Clap is free for Protection warriors, and it applies a dot. Shield Slam and auto attack to generate rage for Shield Block.

Most other offensive attacks are free (for Protection), except for Heroic Strike and Cleave, which are intended to be used only in times of excess rage (which should be less common than today, but still occur with reasonable frequency).

Improving tanking rotations is always challenging. If tanks have too many abilities to manage, then they are overwhelmed in fights that require a lot of boss positioning or add management. If tanks have too few abilities or a very simplified resource, then they get bored on single-target boss fights with limited movement.

Part of our design intent is to have tank resources tie into survivability instead of threat, since we (and tanks) place more emphasis on the former.

Priest (Forums)
The intent of Spirit Shell is to provide a frequent-use absorb that recreates some of the gameplay where Disc priests put absorbs on lots of their teammates. This was a style many Disc priests told us they enjoyed, but was difficult to balance with Power Word: Shield (since PW:S is instant).

At this point, think of Spirit Shell as Heal and Power Word: Shield as Flash Heal.

Evangelism is a spec spell for both Holy and Disc (at least for the moment – things could still change). The talent calculator appears to be incorrect on this. Shadow has Dark Evangelism.

Death Knight (Forums)
But we loved Corpse Explosion!
Yes. You do. So do we. Unfortunately, requiring a corpse felt like too steep a requirement for a competitive talent. We would like to still add Corpse Explosion in some form as a glyph. In the meantime, hey presto! - Unholy Blight is back.

Paladin (Forums)
There are some incorrect mana costs displayed in the talent calculator for some Protection and Retribution Paladins spells right now. For example, Consecration actually costs 7% of base mana, not 22%. *At the moment; subject to change.

They currently are designed such that they are mana positive while doing their damage and going through their tanking rotations, and stay near full mana the whole time. Mana should not be a consideration to their rotation, rather, it will act as a limit on how much off-healing and other utility spells they can cast.

Does Holy Insight mean Intellect plate is going away?
No. That passive (and appropriate classes should have an equivalent) gives casters larger mana pools than non-casters of the same class. Mana no longer increases with Intellect, but we still want to make sure that, for example, a Holy paladin can cast more heals than a Retribution paladin.

Druid (Forums)
  • The Druid will select a raid or party member and cast Symbiosis on them.
  • The target cannot be another Druid.
  • The target gains a buff that tells them what spell they have temporarily learned, and that spell temporarily appears in their spellbook, and they can drag it to an action bar.
  • The Druid’s Symbiosis button will become the ability they gained from the target class.
  • The Symbiosis link is cancelled if: the Druid clicks off the Symbiosis buff, or the Druid or the target changes continents or enters or exits an instance, or the Druid or the target changes talent specializations.
  • Symbiosis fails to cast if Symbiosis is already active on that target.
  • Symbiosis cannot be cast in combat.
  • For the non-Druid target, the icon will revert to a placeholder (uncastable) Symbiosis icon when Symbiosis ends, but will become the Symbiosis-granted ability again the next time Symbiosis is cast on that target.
  • The ability gained from Symbiosis is always something chosen to match the Druid’s specialization and the target’s combat role.
  • The target always gets the same spell unless they change combat roles. A Druid of a given specialization always gets the same spell from each different class. If there is a change of specs, there is a change of spell.

Here are some examples of spells gained through Symbiosis. The spells shared focus on utility, cooldowns, and survival. (Adding Fireball to a Moonkin’s rotation sounds cool on paper, but wouldn’t actually be fun in the long run.)

Balance: Chains of Ice, Mirror Image, Mass Dispel
Feral: Feign Death (Play Dead!), Frost Nova, Soul Swap
Guardian: Ice Trap, Fear Ward, Consecration
Restoration: Ice Block, Hand of Sacrifice, Leap of Faith
Hunter: Dash
Warlock: Rejuvenation
Holy Paladin: Rebirth
Arms/Fury Warrior: Enrage
Enhancement/Elemental Shaman: Solar Beam

There are a lot more coming, but we'll keep some surprises for now, and many are still subject to change after testing. Including all of those just listed.

Warlock (Forums)
  • Ember Tap will be received at a later level and will cost Embers.
  • Conflagrate has a 2.0 spell power coefficient (still working on this; subject to change).
  • Malady is a level 3 spell that is replaced by Immolate (Destruction) or Corruption (Demonology/Affliction).
  • Dark Soul is a replacement for Demon Soul based on spec. We’re experimenting with the exact mechanics.

Wild Imps has not been cut. The code for it simply wasn't ready in time for this talent calculator update. Here, I'll show it to you!



Here is what Dark Soul looks like today:


Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Simple New Talent Trees
Talking with a lot of fellow Pver's and there has been a lot of talk that Blizzard is going to reduce the amount of PvE in the next expansion...
We've never quantified the amount of content coming in Mists of Pandaria, much less stated we plan to produce less content in the next expansion than we have in previous expansions. We've mentioned adding a few PvE gameplay elements in Mists.

Wow, gear with no stats to make players equal...
No, the point of gear with no stats is not to make players equal. IN ADDITION to the PvE gear progression you typically see in dungeon and raid tiers, in Mists we're adding PvE Challenges to award cosmetic-only sets. These sets aren't meant to replace items/sets from dungeons and raids that increase your character's power. They're meant to be hard to get, entirely optional, and another way for characters to distinguish themselves from others through their accomplishments.

a talent tree that my kids could pick out
I'm sure your kid could press buttons and make a talent build under the current system too. That doesn't mean it's going to be optimal, or even viable. This type of feedback isn't very interesting or useful.

Can't we all agree that it's the strive to be the best and or to be better that is what really keeps us playing this game? If it comes to be and at the end of the day I'm not any better then the 8 year old that started playing yesterday, I will stop playing this game along with many other people...
My primary goal when logging into World of Warcraft isn't to be the best. If by better, you mean acquiring more powerful items or higher character levels, I guess that's part of the drive. That's not being stripped from PvE in Mists of Pandaria, contrary to the talks in which you've been involved.

On that note there has also been talk of a World of Warcraft 2, hmm now this sounds like a good idea with a great focus on PvE wouldn't this help solve everyone's PvP / PvE problems?
I'm not sure I understand how the solution to the fabricated problem of a lack of PvE content -- in an expansion you haven't played yet -- is to make a completely new game. We're focused on developing additional expansion content for World of Warcraft, not designing a sequel to the first title.

There has been so much lore that has been skipped the possibilities for this could be endless
We don't really see it as much of a problem that we have a lot of story at our disposal to use in developing new content. But we also don't need to reinvent the game to explore that lore.

Nonetheless, Zarhym, isn't the entire point of the MoP talent system that, for most practical purposes, optimal or viable specs will no longer exist? Shouldn't this hypothetical "kid" be ideally able to randomly press buttons and come up with a viable talent load-out which only differs from others in subjective "fun value"?
Sort of. I wasn't really interested in entertaining the OP's argument though, because the kid* who blindly chooses a potentially viable build isn't going to blindly know how to play the class well.

*Referring to the usage of the word in the OP's post, which I presume is defined as someone who should be too young to figure out how a WoW class is successfully played.

So the idea behind players being rewarded based on the efforts is basically being tossed to the side now? It at least appears that way with features like LFR which allows players to go afk and intentionally leach off of other players and collect rewards that improve their "power", while the new challenge modes which require effort from each individual player working together as a team just rewards cosmetic rewards.
You make this claim as though the Raid Finder is synonymous with Heroic raids, in terms of providing the highest quality gear in the game. That's not the case. Even with Raid Finder and PvE Challenges in Mists of Pandaria, the best sets in the game (stat-wise) will still be rather difficult to obtain.

Just one of the factors that has players dismayed at the direction the developers are taking the game.
You'd have a really hard time arguing your last sentence on behalf of the entire playerbase. I could argue there are players who are dismayed right now that Peddlefeet's butt isn't as firm as it should be. Is that a larger argument about "the direction the developers are taking the game"?

If you weren't interested in his argument, maybe responding to it was a bad idea? Just sayin.
I took eight of his words and said they didn't make for an interesting argument. No, I don't think it was a bad idea to address the other points of the OP just because I didn't find his "my kid could do it" argument interesting.

And you're not saying, you're asking (though surely I'm to assume it's rhetorical). And why does everyone need to follow up saying something with "just sayin" these days? I know you're just sayin'. You just said it!

^ I just typed and posted those words right up there. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Buffs... Where are they?
At this point in the development cycle, there hasn't yet been a finish put on buffs. As we've said elsewhere, we wanted to get the talent calculator updated sooner, rather than wait around for more details on related subjects to be fully developed.

We're considering publishing a developer's blog on the subject of buffs as quickly as we can. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Ask CDev #3: Questions!
Creative Development once again opens the floodgates for questions pertaining to the lore of the Warcraft universe!

Our last two "Ask CDev" projects generated thousands of unique questions across all the different regions, but ultimately the Creative Development team was able to sift through the sea of inquiries to focus on the questions with the juiciest answers. You can see the results of the last two "Ask CDev" endeavors here:

Ask CDev #1: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1008430853

Ask CDev #2: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2721372142

The rules of engagement this year are as follows:
  • No restriction on the subject of your post, but keep in mind that questions that may be answered by the release of Mists of Pandaria will likely be overlooked; we don't want to spoil surprises!
  • Please only ask one question in each post. If your post has more than one question (or if your question contains multiple parts), it will be overlooked. Also, it is recommended that you check the thread to see if your question has already been asked; duplicate questions will not have a greater chance of being answered.
  • Questions will only be accepted for the first seven days, and the thread will be locked at 11:59 p.m. PDT on February 22.
  • While the thread is open for questions, forum members are encouraged to go through the thread and "Like" or "Dislike" posts; voting on a post will increase or decrease (respectively) the probability of that question being answered.
(Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

World of Warcraft War College – Warsong Gulch
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
This week, the topic of discussion is: Warsong Gulch – Which tactics have you found most effective in Warsong Gulch? Which winning team compositions and strategies do you use when playing Rated? What tips or tricks have you discovered? What common mistakes have you witnessed?

The battlefields of World of Warcraft are littered with the bones of those who have become casualties in the ongoing conflict between the Horde and the Alliance. You do not need to become one of them. One of the keys to victory is knowledge, and that is where the World of Warcraft War College enters the picture. In these discussions between players, you can learn and share strategies with other players to improve your tactics and improve your odds of emerging victorious from the field of battle.

Are you a veteran Gladiator with countless victories tallied? Are you new to World of Warcraft and striving to improve your PvP skills? In this weekly feature, we invite players of all skill levels to ask questions, share tips and tactics, and join a conversation dedicated to surviving and thriving in World of Warcraft PvP.

Don’t forget to up-vote forum posts that are on-topic and helpful!

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This article was originally published in forum thread: Mists of Pandaria Talent Clarifications, Blue Posts, War College, The Curse Word started by chaud View original post
Comments 81 Comments
  1. Kaleredar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    It's great that Blizzard decided to discuss changes with players. But their approach is kinda bad. They have one statement, and they know whatever players are going to say, there will be no changes. PvE rewarding was made a problem in current patch, when LFR came up and "pvp tards", afkers and ninjas proceeded to gain EXTREME tier bonuses. For free, for 0 effort. Doing normal dungeons is more challanging. Blizzard closed thier eyes on players who wanna feel rewarded. Im starting to feel like in childengarden, where after a small painting contest the caretaker just says "You were all great!". Come on, even the feeling of wearing current tier on your character shall feel like an achievement. Seeing all LFR scammers wearing the same things as you makes this feeling worse.

    And things are going to get worse. LFR stays, and is probably going to expand. I wont be suprised to see it replacing normal mode, leaving only HC for better players. Challenge mode provides a challenge (as it says), but does not give appropriate rewards to effort put. Transmog items like cowboy hats may be a reward in world events, not challenges. Is WoW trying to change into community of children, enthusiasted that they can look like cowboys in game?

    And talents... Well, some of them are neat. I really like hunter changes. But again - how is Blizzard even considering that there wont be 1 build for PvE, 1 build for PvP? Each of offensive abilities can be easily measured, checking which provides best dps gives you a perfect tree. Some talents are simply bound to spec. And those "utility talents"... come on. To begin with, they dont matter at all. Great choice. Secondly, in current trees you nearly always have some spare points that cant be spent in PvE - efficient way, and need to be put somewhere else. And moreover, even they look sometimes simply more OP than another. Builds are going to be more copy-paste from the internet than in any expansion in WoW.

    To sum up, im quite dissappointed by Blizzards approach. Im not a "hardcore raider". I just enjoy being rewarded, feeling that I've achieved something in game. And so is any other player. It may sound like I'm a bad person, but seeing the same model of armor on somebody, who does not know how to play his class, or simply afks on encounters puts me down. And it's the main reason why I don't like current patch.
    Commenting purely on challenge modes, what, then, should they reward? They can't reward real gear, as that's pointless towards progressing further in challenge modes. It'd be like high-end arenas rewarding top-tier HM raiding gear, or vice versa, and then disallowing you from using them in the other, just because "you tried real hard at something and did real well."


    As for the talents, the only thing that would eliminate cookie cutter builds, allow everyone to play how they want, AND be comprised solely of extremely meaningful talents that change how you as a very person function in every single battle would be to develop a talent tree set up that allows players to choose a certain number of any ability they want (relevant to their class/role) from a massive tree that will immediately fit into a rotation/priority system with any and all other potential talent choices, ALL of which (every single possible combination of talents) are all equally balanced to PvE, PvP, and with all other potential combinations from all the other talent trees of all the other classes of all the other DPS, healing, or tanking specs, depending on which role you yourself have chosen and then crafted a rotation for.

    ....

    I probably don't need to point out that this would, very literally, be a nightmare to approach designing.
  1. proutek's Avatar
    We've mentioned adding a few PvE gameplay elements in Mists.
    What does this mean? Less 5m dungeons? Less raid content?
  1. Okacz's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Commenting purely on challenge modes, what, then, should they reward? They can't reward real gear, as that's pointless towards progressing further in challenge modes. It'd be like high-end arenas rewarding top-tier HM raiding gear, or vice versa, just because "you tried real hard at something and did real well."


    As for the talents, the only thing that would eliminate cookie cutter builds, allow everyone to play how they want, AND be comprised solely of extremely meaningful talents that change how you as a very person function in every single battle would be to develop a talent tree set up that allows players to choose a certain number of any ability they want (relevant to their class) from a massive tree that will immediately fit into a rotation/priority system with any other given talent choice, ALL of which (every single possible combination of talents) are all equally balanced to PvE, PvP, and with all other potential combinations from all the other talent trees of all the other classes of all the other same roles.

    ....

    I probably don't need to point out that this would, very literally, be a nightmare to approach designing.
    About challenge rewards: Yes, gear can't be a reward. If it is on the same level or a bit higher than the instance, it will be outdated in next patch. If it's on the same level as patch, challenge modes lose their reason to exist.

    But what about items players are USED to consider reward? Pets or Mounts, totally useless, but still loved by community, may be somewhere higher on reward list. On lower reward tiers? My idea is simple. Mats. Gems, ore, leather, cloth, fishes, all that kind of stuff, in bags, bigger on every tier. Why? If you can complete these modes you are probably in a guild that really appreciates such a gift, and those mats may come useful while raiding. Cauldron and Feast can't be done from air. And players will still be trying challenge mode to reach the chance to win a great looking mount, or unusual pet. This system beats cowboy hats in as I see it.

    And talent trees? Make them bigger. More talents, bigger choice, less internet searching, more thinking. Make important choices, like on current tree, but not between OP ability and 2 lame, but eg. stat conversion. Would I like to empower my mastery, so while increasing a chance to get a Wild Shot, it has also a chance to make Wild Shot have a small dot? Or maybe I'd prefer a talent, where EVERY crit gives you Piercing Shots? Those choices may change the way you play, if they are balanced.
  1. Ruck's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by shoju View Post
    These Blue Posts just further reinforce that I have absolutely 0 desire to play the game in 5.0 or beyond. I don't even understand the logic that they are trying to use to justify some things anymore. They want it easy, because it was too hard, and too uninteresting, but then they change it, and say that it should be all about "flavor" and then start backtracking from that when it's brought back up?

    The new talent system isn't even a talent system. its more like a spell system you would see in a FF Console game. /yawn.

    couldn't of said it better myself
  1. Bahska's Avatar
    Looking over at the Druid tier, how many of the tier actually have you making a hard choice for healing in raid?
    For healing in most tiers there are two choices for pve

    Tier 1 Feline swiftness and wild charge

    Tier 2 could be all 3 based on the situation

    Tier 3 Mass entanglement or Typhoon depends on the situation (I guess if you have no other class to kite improved faerie fire could help you do that)

    Tier 4 Soul of the forest or Incarnation

    Tier 5 Vortex or mighty bash (Vortex was changed from pulling enemy's to your location to can be placed at any location within 30 yards)

    Tier 6 sucks i wont lie: Disentanglement pvp Heart of the wild pve. The other talent is crap.


    Almost to the T. Many posts and people I spoke to were convinced the cata changes would fix the cookie cutter specs, and make it to where you can make fun choices and not lose dps by choosing what you want.
    How do you lose (or gain) healing by taking or not taking any of these talents? Only one i could see is tier 5 if you took treants instead of one of the other two but then your trading healing for extra damage.
    Even if you took the crap talent in tier 6 you wouldn't lose healing cause the good pve choice is utility.

    You wont need to go to a site to see what you need cause its all based on your playstyle, the strategy and what your group has/needs for utility.
    Point is if you have two resto druids spec'd into totally different talents one isn't gonna out heal the other based on there spec. You'll just have more utility to use.
  1. Kalx's Avatar
    Dark Soul is a replacement for Demon Soul
    I see what you did there, Blizz...
  1. Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bahska View Post
    For healing in most tiers there are two choices for pve

    Tier 1 Feline swiftness and wild charge

    Tier 2 could be all 3 based on the situation

    Tier 3 Mass entanglement or Typhoon depends on the situation (I guess if you have no other class to kite improved faerie fire could help you do that)

    Tier 4 Soul of the forest or Incarnation

    Tier 5 Vortex or mighty bash (Vortex was changed from pulling enemy's to your location to can be placed at any location within 30 yards)

    Tier 6 sucks i wont lie: Disentanglement pvp Heart of the wild pve. The other talent is crap.



    How do you lose (or gain) healing by taking or not taking any of these talents? Only one i could see is tier 5 if you took treants instead of one of the other two but then your trading healing for extra damage.
    Even if you took the crap talent in tier 6 you wouldnt lose healing cause the good pve choice is utility.

    I'm not a druid, but I have healed as a Pally. But Ill look at the tree and see what I think.

    Tier 1-Most likely Felines Swiftness. MAYBE Wild Charge.
    Tier 2-In PVP, this would be a tough choice, in PVE I would go with Cenarion Ward. I just can't see any instances I would say to myself, MAN THAT WOULD BE GREAT!
    Tier 3-From a healing aspect I see none of these as that amazing. Your tanks should have aggro, so knock backs and roots shouldn't be important. FF? I think a tank would benefit more from it.
    Tier 4- Incarnation
    Tier 5- A Slow, a stun, and a root......
    Tier 6- Puke.



    Unless the way raids will work are changing, I just can't see most of the talents being applicable to healing at all. MoP isn't here yet, so who knows. I'm not hating on the talents so much as how people seem to think the choices they make are as tough as they say. For the most part I think on my characters trees, I will be keep the same ones unless they counter a very specific mechanic.
  1. Deadanon's Avatar
    So let me get this right.... There is no stat on gear that icreases mana pools for casters (including healers)? And his is an RPG game? omg omg omg. Thats it Blizzard. Goodbye
  1. Mekh's Avatar
    Rogues are fine. Always were.

    Still these changes make me happy. I hope they can make good on that dual-wield swords for combat thing.
  1. Charo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bahska View Post
    For healing in most tiers there are two choices for pve

    Tier 1 Feline swiftness and wild charge

    Tier 2 could be all 3 based on the situation

    Tier 3 Mass entanglement or Typhoon depends on the situation (I guess if you have no other class to kite improved faerie fire could help you do that)

    Tier 4 Soul of the forest or Incarnation

    Tier 5 Vortex or mighty bash (Vortex was changed from pulling enemy's to your location to can be placed at any location within 30 yards)

    Tier 6 sucks i wont lie: Disentanglement pvp Heart of the wild pve. The other talent is crap.




    How do you lose (or gain) healing by taking or not taking any of these talents? Only one i could see is tier 5 if you took treants instead of one of the other two but then your trading healing for extra damage.
    Even if you took the crap talent in tier 6 you wouldn't lose healing cause the good pve choice is utility.

    You wont need to go to a site to see what you need cause its all based on your playstyle, the strategy and what your group has/needs for utility.
    Point is if you have two resto druids spec'd into totally different talents one isn't gonna out heal the other based on there spec. You'll just have more utility to use.
    Why not Displacer Beast? A druid vanish would have been very useful in fights like Lady Deathwhsiper, if it agrro dumps like Vanish.
  1. Bahska's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadanon View Post
    So let me get this right.... There is no stat on gear that icreases mana pools for casters (including healers)? And his is an RPG game? omg omg omg. Thats it Blizzard. Goodbye
    You'll have a set mana pool yes that's the way it was in Vanilla wow. Once your spellpower goes up and spirit you wont notice the difference.
    I can only speak for resto druids but we have internal mana regen talents based off of are max mana an right now there op as hell you can pretty much just reforge spirit.

    Healers get a passive talent that increases there mana by 400% so a pally for example wont have 24k mana like ret does.

    Casters normally have there own way of gaining back mana i.e. mages have evocation along with other talents there getting in mop.
  1. VanishO2's Avatar
    Again, giving excess of power to classes that shouldn't need such extras...

    Then they say the old "if OP class loses control and etc. we will compensate with more damage" and in the end, they will just give both as they usually do and screw game balance.

    They also always say before a new expansion "we're looking to chill out some of the passive, automatically-applied snares on some classes get because there's no real gameplay to them beyond just I touch you and you're snared." (at least this time they only talk about snares instead of all CCs, like the excess of stuns/fears). Again they won't chill it out and the unbalanced distribution of said CCs between classes/specs screws the pvp in this game. A few specs with way too much and all the rest with so few, on top of that these few classes/specs with so many tools and all of them on their each DR. So much wrong going on at the same time that it sucks...

    And still 8 seconds for cc in pvp... lol... still too much. If we had a better distribution of tools between classes/specs, then ok. But the way it is 8 secs is a lot when one class can go 8+8+8+8..., most of it with short CDs... while the other can just 8 (if they can...) then sit and watch waiting a long time for that CD to come off so they can go "8" again... and considering that things like healers, are balanced around those few classes/specs that can lock a player out of combat for that much time, you can imagine how much it does suck to be on the "8 and wait a lot" side against healers and etc.

    If they really wanted to balance the pvp, they would have removed most of this "proc while you press your high dmg buttons" crap, auto-attacking application and reflective procs of debuffs, so ppl would need to think more about what to do with their resources and GCDs.

    Other than that, the rest is also crap, it's sad that they are "open for discussion", but most of the time, just mock players, showing that they're not that open for discussion.

    The LFR vs. heroic raids is total BS, in a game that is moving as fast as they can, heroic raiding is useless as it's rewards are totally destroyed by the few months later drops from easy modes (we're talking about the most of the user base that Blizzard catters to, not the few players that do it for the challenge), most players won't want to waste time and effort to down a heroic just to use the little better drop for a few months and then get something better in the next LFR. Is just like the waste of time in doing the raid achievements for the tier's mount instead of just roflstomping it a few months later (or as soon as someone killed the last heroic boss like it was in FL).

    Only the guilds fighting for a realm's 1st actually have use for the current system as it helps them go heroic mode 1 week later with less drops needed from the normal mode. The system would be interesting for way more players if the current heroic gear could be on par (or even a little better) with the normal mode gear from the next tier, it would made sense for every player to try and get heroic gear as they could really use it for the next heroic tier instead of dropping most of it (except for those few OP pieces) for new LFR/normal mode pieces. It would make the effort worth way more. Also if they always change drop rates of mounts (like bosses that have 100% drop chance on heroic) on the next tier, would make ppl more interested in keep going (or even trying) before they would have to farm in a lower drop scenario thanks to the nerfs or new tier making it easy. Even removing the achievement mount like they did with T7 drakes, so there would be a reason to try it instead of waiting just 2, 3 months (or a new tier) to get it. But that's is something that they don't want because they prefer to see players still going to things like ulduar, icc, etc. at 85-90 just for the mount.

    And the challenge modes? Ok... it's nice on paper, but since they need to make those cosmetic rewards interesting, they will obviously appeal to a lot of players... but let's be honest, unless it's not a real challenge, not everyone will be able to get most of those since the challenges are supposed to not be outgeared with their gear normalization rule. So, how long before they catter to the players that will demand they lower the dificult of said challenges because making them put effort for it is "stupid", "work at home", "epeen", etc. and they are paying $15 for it, but get "content" denied???
  1. Bahska's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Charo View Post
    Why not Displacer Beast? A druid vanish would have been very useful in fights like Lady Deathwhsiper, if it agrro dumps like Vanish.
    Symbiosis says hi, you need to have the class in your group like mage gives resto ice block which drops threat (Kitty can take feign death from hunters) but its a nice way around not giving every class every talent.

    If every class had everything the game would be even more boring then it already is. honestly a aggro dump is the one talent resto druids don't have atm (that they could use)

    They haven't finished what druids get from other classes with this talent but i can see resto getting dispersion things like that.

    You could also switch to bear if you took the heart of the wild talent cause switching from resto to bear switches 95% of you int to armor its not a aggro dump but may save your life till the tank picks the adds up. (In theory)

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 06:58 AM ----------

    Unless the way raids will work are changing, I just can't see most of the talents being applicable to healing at all.
    if your looking for dps/healing increase talents, for the most part you wont find them here.
    There all utility, i do agree that raids like dragon soul there pointless but Nef and magmaw things like typhoon and a stun would have been nice.

    I would love to have renewal for the slime boss on heroic. in dragon soul
  1. Nolebad's Avatar
    Yes finally! Don't have to worry about symbiosis being a PvE spell anymore, it would be extremely unbalanced on the numbers. And theres so much appreciation i have for that rogue crit boost, I've litterly been crying through all Cataclysm because crit was such a horrible stat.
  1. Arsi's Avatar
    Ferals getting Soul Swap? And Warlocks with Rejuv? Holy hell Warlock/Feral/Healer will be fun.
  1. Aerion's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Omg. My thread, which got a blue post, is now on MMO-Champ. I am happyface :3 Also: Darn, wish I could stack 2 Runes of Power
    That would be awesome, wouldn't it?

    I assume they are making the double-rune possible just so that if you for some reason have to move, you always find a rune under your feet.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 02:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    So it'll be even more difficult, because we'll have to type in the extra letters required for the individual boss names, instead of just typing in the spec and role once at the beginning of each patch like we do now.

    Besides, it's much harder to judge the raw DPS output of "situational" abilities, which almost all of these are.
    You do realize most of the talents are utility talents with no or only slight impact on actual DPS/HPS.

    Also, you cannot always expect to do the same things on same boss fights. You might have a change in raid roster causing you to have to do things that you wouldn't normally do (managing adds etc.).

    However, you are right in pointing out that for a certain purpose where you know exactly what to expect and how the fight will go through, and you know what your role in that fight will be, you obviously can and will find the best suited talent combination for that single purpose. However, any change in that pattern might cause some of the other talents become more desirable changing your talent specialization as whole.
  1. ipaq's Avatar
    Love how the editors here pander to Blizzard.

    A talent chooser is not a calculator.

    PS: Blizzard already stated that their customers was having difficulties understanding the Talent Tree... Snap out of it and said it already.
  1. Thraenduil's Avatar
    All this talk about " i just go to elitist jerks the moment i encounter problem in game " makes me really sad. If you first try by yourself to work out your talents and then correct them if needed you become better player. And if you need advice guild members and friends should be first to consult from. Just doing what it says in forums without understanding the purpose and then whine about it on the same forum when it doesn't work won't get you place in the raid.Let me quote what one wise man said : "Anyone who asks "what's the trick" and "how did you do that" right of the bat fails then and there. People who look for shortcuts like that should know their place. Even if you have the right answer it's worthless without knowing the meaning."Well, internet can be used if you are really out of options. No one can criticise you at that point. As for these new talents go, I like some of the changes and think rogues really are powered down a little. But they may get something cool in return. Shamans too finally get some love.BTW, has it been since blizzcon that elemental shamans benefit from spirit? I mean Elemental Precision. This would mean that other class besides priest will roll spirit gear.
  1. Theodon's Avatar
    Simple New Talent Trees
    Talking with a lot of fellow Pver's and there has been a lot of talk that Blizzard is going to reduce the amount of PvE in the next expansion... We've never quantified the amount of content coming in Mists of Pandaria, much less stated we plan to produce less content in the next expansion than we have in previous expansions. We've mentioned adding a few PvE gameplay elements in Mists.
    That statement has me worried. I know it's not a confirmation that it's true, but it was also the typical non-answer you get when it's a possibility.
  1. Plavalguna's Avatar
    Every time I see the talent calculator information it feels more and more like they are going to write a bunch of bad ideas on a dartboard and throw a few darts to decide what (if any) big new things to give to shamans.

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