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I cannot overstate how much we appreciate all of the feedback we get. We spend a lot of time reading it all, and compiling it, and sharing it between teams here. Nonetheless, if the measurement of successful feedback is that the developers implement a suggested idea, then expectations are too high.
We are going to continue to work on all of the talent trees until Mists is released.
What is being done with spell crit for DPS specs?
Our baseline assertion is that all spells and abilities will crit for double damage. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Elemental shaman getting a 2.5x crit multiplier, but the default is 2x for everyone now.
Yes, this means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue Poisons will crit for double damage.
Are all tanks across the board losing a taunt?
We’re currently trying a design where no tanks have AE taunts, other than Mocking Banner (which we intend to be used more as a tool to redirect streams of adds to you).
Rogue (Forums)
The new Shiv will apply concentrated effects of the active utility poison. Those effects are not included in the poison tooltips currently available on the calculator, but here are the current versions:
Shiv can still proc poison normally when it's triggered.
Also, for those who were curious, it's looking like it will be about a 3 second cast time to swap poisons in combat. So, you won't be flip flopping between poisons on a whim, but if it's really clutch to swap to a different poison, then it's not totally out of the question.
So does this mean that Poisons will still be on the Spell Crit table? In other words, Agility will still not affect their chance to crit?
No. Poisons crit chance will be based on your melee crit chance.
Yeah they should take the stun off of the actual poison and swap it with this effect as the stun is really random.
Well, yes. The random part is kind of important though.
An additional controllable stun that's on a different DR would be excessive. On the other hand, if it's on the same DR as CS and KS then that's... not good. By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.
Despite the title of the thread (which I will callously change), we're interested in player feedback on the shiv change as a whole, though. So what do you think?
Will the thrown weapon talents have a chance to apply one or both active poisons?
We're not sure about this yet. It's more likely that we'll apply damage poisons than the non-lethal ones, especially in the case of Shuriken, because a fairly spammable ranged snare is probably too good.
Sorry, guys. You can still use Shuriken + Deadly Throw though!
If I have Deadly Brew, will Shiv amplify that Crippling Poison effect in addition to my active poisons?
No. Deadly Brew isn't the same as having Crippling actually active.
For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.
How does poison proccing work now, and what does that mean for weapon speed.
Poison procs are largely unchanged, except, y’know, for all poisons being percentage-based in the future. We’re looking to get rid of the "fast 1.4 speed dagger" thing. The plan is for offhand daggers to just be daggers and interchangeable with main hand daggers. So we're anticipating Assassination and Subtlety rogues will use 1.8/1.8 daggers for the most part, while Combat will use a 2.6 main hand and a 1.8 offhand dagger. I know some of you noticed a Main Gauche change, and the intention isn’t a nerf. If it needs adjustment, it’s important to remember that numbers are still in flux.
On a separate note, while we don’t have an elegant system in place for it, we do know that a lot of Combat rogues want to at least have the appearance of dual wielding swords/axes/maces. There are a lot of hurdles, but maybe we’ll find a good way to deliver on that. No promises though! So, again, don’t get your hopes up too high.
So, how about an offensive dispel using the shiv system (perhaps as an alternative to Mind Numbing)?
It's something we might consider, but if too many people have access to an effect like that, then magic buffs are increasingly devalued, and that causes all kinds of problems. For example, something like Hand of Protection is cool, but significantly less meaningful if too many classes out there can remove it with a button press. So, we'll think about it, but don't get your hopes up.
Is Mind Numbing nerfed, now that it won’t affect all casts for the duration?
That's a bit of a misunderstanding. Base Mind-Numbing is unchanged and works as it does now. The new Shiv effect stacks on top of the base Mind-Numbing, and is more than triply effective on the single next spellcast.
Any chance of a sweet UI element warning the rogue that he’s approaching 5 stacks of paralytic poison, or letting him know that it went off?
Making it easier to track buffs and debuffs in the UI, including using the Spell Alert system, is something we're always looking at.
Y U NERF CRIPPLING?
Sadly, because it was too good -- which is pretty much the same reason anything ever gets nerfed. Basically, we're looking to chill out some of the passive, automatically-applied snares on some classes get because there's no real gameplay to them beyond just I touch you and you're snared.
Crippling is an important tool though, and we didn't want to take it away entirely. By lowering the base snare and allowing Shiv to still apply the -70% form, snaring opponents or kiting other melee classes that also have snares becomes something you'll need to think about and manage.
Is Crippling going to last 12 seconds in PVP now, instead of 8 seconds?
Nay. PvP durations are capped at 8 (and nothing should break that rule), but PvP durations aren’t shown in the tooltips.
Under the proposed system, it looks like it won’t be possible to take both Paralytic and Leeching Poison. Will we have to have to choose between Paralytic and Crippling?
You can take both Paralytic and Leeching, but you'll be able to actively make use of one at a time. That said, switching poisons isn't necessarily impossible in the heat of combat -- the cast time on swapping will be fairly short.
That said, we're taking a look at the decision involved in the current placement of the different Poison-related talents, and that's something we may reevaluate. Still early days yet – and that applies to everything in this list.
But Daxx! RAWR RAIDING! What's this PvP nonsense?
We'd like Shiv to be useful when raiding too, and increasing the availability of such effects makes it easier to design encounters that permit them to shine. It bears mentioning that, even now, the various Shiv effects could be useful in existing raid encounters. There’s no reason to expect that they couldn't be useful in Mists raid design too.
Also, there's more to PvE than raiding. Just because a talent isn't useful when you're fighting Ultraxion doesn't mean it isn't useful in PvE at large. There's still leveling (remember, tier 1 talents should ideally be relevant and useful to a level 15 player!), outdoor dailies, the upcoming challenge modes, and more to consider.
Sooooo… Does this mean that rogue damage might go up if we lose some control/mobility/survivability?
We want rogue PvE damage to remain top-tier. But yes, if rogues end up with less control or mobility or survivability, and they have to choose among those areas, then that allows us to safely improve their damage potential in PvP while keeping the class balanced overall.
Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison?
There's a chance, we'll have a look. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Mage (Forums)
Fear not! Mages will still have all their Teleports and Portals. At this point, we decided to hide them from the talent calculator to reduce clutter.
What is "base mana regeneration"? How does mana regen work for casters (or mages)?
Healers get a significant amount of mana regeneration from Spirit, even during combat. Additionally, all mana users have a small amount of mana regeneration -- currently about 1% of maximum mana per second. With Invocation, that 1%/sec is removed. Things like Innervate will still allow you to regenerate mana, but you won’t passively regenerate any with Invocation.
What is the range for Alter time concerning the "moves too far away" part?
100 yards. It’s mostly just to indicate that it won’t reverse taking a portal to Dalaran or something.
Is AM a proc?
Yes, Arcane Missiles is still activated via a proc from your other direct damage spells.
Does Arcane Bomb have a target limit?
Currently, no. We’re hoping it won’t be needed.
Invisibility and Greater Invisibility say that you’re “untargettable”. Does that mean that we’re not actually invisible anymore?
No, you still turn invisible, just it has been. It still breaks on damage. You still are completely cleared of threat when you turn invisible (either after 3sec for Invisibility, or instantly for Greater Invisibility).
For Rune of Power, if the mage has two already out will we be able to cast another one or do we have to wait till the first one is gone?
Casting a third will replace the first. This is similar to how Wild Mushrooms works for druids right now. By the way, two Runes of Power will not stack.
Warrior (Forums)
Traditionally AE threat is hardest to maintain for warriors, how will this carry forward in MOP?
Thunder Clap is free for Protection warriors, and it applies a dot. Shield Slam and auto attack to generate rage for Shield Block.
Most other offensive attacks are free (for Protection), except for Heroic Strike and Cleave, which are intended to be used only in times of excess rage (which should be less common than today, but still occur with reasonable frequency).
Improving tanking rotations is always challenging. If tanks have too many abilities to manage, then they are overwhelmed in fights that require a lot of boss positioning or add management. If tanks have too few abilities or a very simplified resource, then they get bored on single-target boss fights with limited movement.
Part of our design intent is to have tank resources tie into survivability instead of threat, since we (and tanks) place more emphasis on the former.
Priest (Forums)
The intent of Spirit Shell is to provide a frequent-use absorb that recreates some of the gameplay where Disc priests put absorbs on lots of their teammates. This was a style many Disc priests told us they enjoyed, but was difficult to balance with Power Word: Shield (since PW:S is instant).
At this point, think of Spirit Shell as Heal and Power Word: Shield as Flash Heal.
Evangelism is a spec spell for both Holy and Disc (at least for the moment – things could still change). The talent calculator appears to be incorrect on this. Shadow has Dark Evangelism.
Death Knight (Forums)
But we loved Corpse Explosion!
Yes. You do. So do we. Unfortunately, requiring a corpse felt like too steep a requirement for a competitive talent. We would like to still add Corpse Explosion in some form as a glyph. In the meantime, hey presto! - Unholy Blight is back.
Paladin (Forums)
There are some incorrect mana costs displayed in the talent calculator for some Protection and Retribution Paladins spells right now. For example, Consecration actually costs 7% of base mana, not 22%. *At the moment; subject to change.
They currently are designed such that they are mana positive while doing their damage and going through their tanking rotations, and stay near full mana the whole time. Mana should not be a consideration to their rotation, rather, it will act as a limit on how much off-healing and other utility spells they can cast.
Does Holy Insight mean Intellect plate is going away?
No. That passive (and appropriate classes should have an equivalent) gives casters larger mana pools than non-casters of the same class. Mana no longer increases with Intellect, but we still want to make sure that, for example, a Holy paladin can cast more heals than a Retribution paladin.
Druid (Forums)
Here are some examples of spells gained through Symbiosis. The spells shared focus on utility, cooldowns, and survival. (Adding Fireball to a Moonkin’s rotation sounds cool on paper, but wouldn’t actually be fun in the long run.)
Balance: Chains of Ice, Mirror Image, Mass Dispel
Feral: Feign Death (Play Dead!), Frost Nova, Soul Swap
Guardian: Ice Trap, Fear Ward, Consecration
Restoration: Ice Block, Hand of Sacrifice, Leap of Faith
Hunter: Dash
Warlock: Rejuvenation
Holy Paladin: Rebirth
Arms/Fury Warrior: Enrage
Enhancement/Elemental Shaman: Solar Beam
There are a lot more coming, but we'll keep some surprises for now, and many are still subject to change after testing. Including all of those just listed.
Warlock (Forums)
Wild Imps has not been cut. The code for it simply wasn't ready in time for this talent calculator update. Here, I'll show it to you!
Here is what Dark Soul looks like today:
We are going to continue to work on all of the talent trees until Mists is released.
What is being done with spell crit for DPS specs?
Our baseline assertion is that all spells and abilities will crit for double damage. There are a few exceptions to this, such as Elemental shaman getting a 2.5x crit multiplier, but the default is 2x for everyone now.
Yes, this means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue Poisons will crit for double damage.
Are all tanks across the board losing a taunt?
We’re currently trying a design where no tanks have AE taunts, other than Mocking Banner (which we intend to be used more as a tool to redirect streams of adds to you).
Rogue (Forums)The new Shiv will apply concentrated effects of the active utility poison. Those effects are not included in the poison tooltips currently available on the calculator, but here are the current versions:
- Crippling Poison – Reduces the target’s speed by 70% for 12 seconds.
- Mind-Numbing Poison – Increases the casting time of an enemy's next spellcast within 8 seconds by 100%.
- Wound Poison – Reduces the target’s healing received by 50% for 6 seconds.
- Leeching Poison – Instantly restores 5% of the Rogue’s health.
- Paralytic Poison – Roots the target in place for 4 seconds.
Shiv can still proc poison normally when it's triggered.
Also, for those who were curious, it's looking like it will be about a 3 second cast time to swap poisons in combat. So, you won't be flip flopping between poisons on a whim, but if it's really clutch to swap to a different poison, then it's not totally out of the question.
So does this mean that Poisons will still be on the Spell Crit table? In other words, Agility will still not affect their chance to crit?
No. Poisons crit chance will be based on your melee crit chance.
Yeah they should take the stun off of the actual poison and swap it with this effect as the stun is really random.
Well, yes. The random part is kind of important though.
An additional controllable stun that's on a different DR would be excessive. On the other hand, if it's on the same DR as CS and KS then that's... not good. By putting the root on Shiv and leaving the stun on the poison stacking we avoid that entirely, and rogues get a sweet stun that's on the random proc DR instead.
Despite the title of the thread (which I will callously change), we're interested in player feedback on the shiv change as a whole, though. So what do you think?
Will the thrown weapon talents have a chance to apply one or both active poisons?
We're not sure about this yet. It's more likely that we'll apply damage poisons than the non-lethal ones, especially in the case of Shuriken, because a fairly spammable ranged snare is probably too good.
Sorry, guys. You can still use Shuriken + Deadly Throw though!
If I have Deadly Brew, will Shiv amplify that Crippling Poison effect in addition to my active poisons?
No. Deadly Brew isn't the same as having Crippling actually active.
For clarification, how exactly do active poisons work? One lethal, one utility, both with potential to proc from both weapons?
One Lethal, one Non-Lethal, and both poisons are effectively on both weapons. Whenever you land either a mainhand or off-hand strike, you have a chance to apply both your Lethal and Non-Lethal poison.
How does poison proccing work now, and what does that mean for weapon speed.
Poison procs are largely unchanged, except, y’know, for all poisons being percentage-based in the future. We’re looking to get rid of the "fast 1.4 speed dagger" thing. The plan is for offhand daggers to just be daggers and interchangeable with main hand daggers. So we're anticipating Assassination and Subtlety rogues will use 1.8/1.8 daggers for the most part, while Combat will use a 2.6 main hand and a 1.8 offhand dagger. I know some of you noticed a Main Gauche change, and the intention isn’t a nerf. If it needs adjustment, it’s important to remember that numbers are still in flux.
On a separate note, while we don’t have an elegant system in place for it, we do know that a lot of Combat rogues want to at least have the appearance of dual wielding swords/axes/maces. There are a lot of hurdles, but maybe we’ll find a good way to deliver on that. No promises though! So, again, don’t get your hopes up too high.
So, how about an offensive dispel using the shiv system (perhaps as an alternative to Mind Numbing)?
It's something we might consider, but if too many people have access to an effect like that, then magic buffs are increasingly devalued, and that causes all kinds of problems. For example, something like Hand of Protection is cool, but significantly less meaningful if too many classes out there can remove it with a button press. So, we'll think about it, but don't get your hopes up.
Is Mind Numbing nerfed, now that it won’t affect all casts for the duration?
That's a bit of a misunderstanding. Base Mind-Numbing is unchanged and works as it does now. The new Shiv effect stacks on top of the base Mind-Numbing, and is more than triply effective on the single next spellcast.
Any chance of a sweet UI element warning the rogue that he’s approaching 5 stacks of paralytic poison, or letting him know that it went off?
Making it easier to track buffs and debuffs in the UI, including using the Spell Alert system, is something we're always looking at.
Y U NERF CRIPPLING?
Sadly, because it was too good -- which is pretty much the same reason anything ever gets nerfed. Basically, we're looking to chill out some of the passive, automatically-applied snares on some classes get because there's no real gameplay to them beyond just I touch you and you're snared.
Crippling is an important tool though, and we didn't want to take it away entirely. By lowering the base snare and allowing Shiv to still apply the -70% form, snaring opponents or kiting other melee classes that also have snares becomes something you'll need to think about and manage.
Is Crippling going to last 12 seconds in PVP now, instead of 8 seconds?
Nay. PvP durations are capped at 8 (and nothing should break that rule), but PvP durations aren’t shown in the tooltips.
Under the proposed system, it looks like it won’t be possible to take both Paralytic and Leeching Poison. Will we have to have to choose between Paralytic and Crippling?
You can take both Paralytic and Leeching, but you'll be able to actively make use of one at a time. That said, switching poisons isn't necessarily impossible in the heat of combat -- the cast time on swapping will be fairly short.
That said, we're taking a look at the decision involved in the current placement of the different Poison-related talents, and that's something we may reevaluate. Still early days yet – and that applies to everything in this list.
But Daxx! RAWR RAIDING! What's this PvP nonsense?
We'd like Shiv to be useful when raiding too, and increasing the availability of such effects makes it easier to design encounters that permit them to shine. It bears mentioning that, even now, the various Shiv effects could be useful in existing raid encounters. There’s no reason to expect that they couldn't be useful in Mists raid design too.
Also, there's more to PvE than raiding. Just because a talent isn't useful when you're fighting Ultraxion doesn't mean it isn't useful in PvE at large. There's still leveling (remember, tier 1 talents should ideally be relevant and useful to a level 15 player!), outdoor dailies, the upcoming challenge modes, and more to consider.
Sooooo… Does this mean that rogue damage might go up if we lose some control/mobility/survivability?
We want rogue PvE damage to remain top-tier. But yes, if rogues end up with less control or mobility or survivability, and they have to choose among those areas, then that allows us to safely improve their damage potential in PvP while keeping the class balanced overall.
Any chance you guys will consider making Wound a lethal poison?
There's a chance, we'll have a look. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Mage (Forums)Fear not! Mages will still have all their Teleports and Portals. At this point, we decided to hide them from the talent calculator to reduce clutter.
What is "base mana regeneration"? How does mana regen work for casters (or mages)?
Healers get a significant amount of mana regeneration from Spirit, even during combat. Additionally, all mana users have a small amount of mana regeneration -- currently about 1% of maximum mana per second. With Invocation, that 1%/sec is removed. Things like Innervate will still allow you to regenerate mana, but you won’t passively regenerate any with Invocation.
What is the range for Alter time concerning the "moves too far away" part?
100 yards. It’s mostly just to indicate that it won’t reverse taking a portal to Dalaran or something.
Is AM a proc?
Yes, Arcane Missiles is still activated via a proc from your other direct damage spells.
Does Arcane Bomb have a target limit?
Currently, no. We’re hoping it won’t be needed.
Invisibility and Greater Invisibility say that you’re “untargettable”. Does that mean that we’re not actually invisible anymore?
No, you still turn invisible, just it has been. It still breaks on damage. You still are completely cleared of threat when you turn invisible (either after 3sec for Invisibility, or instantly for Greater Invisibility).
For Rune of Power, if the mage has two already out will we be able to cast another one or do we have to wait till the first one is gone?
Casting a third will replace the first. This is similar to how Wild Mushrooms works for druids right now. By the way, two Runes of Power will not stack.
Warrior (Forums)Traditionally AE threat is hardest to maintain for warriors, how will this carry forward in MOP?
Thunder Clap is free for Protection warriors, and it applies a dot. Shield Slam and auto attack to generate rage for Shield Block.
Most other offensive attacks are free (for Protection), except for Heroic Strike and Cleave, which are intended to be used only in times of excess rage (which should be less common than today, but still occur with reasonable frequency).
Improving tanking rotations is always challenging. If tanks have too many abilities to manage, then they are overwhelmed in fights that require a lot of boss positioning or add management. If tanks have too few abilities or a very simplified resource, then they get bored on single-target boss fights with limited movement.
Part of our design intent is to have tank resources tie into survivability instead of threat, since we (and tanks) place more emphasis on the former.
Priest (Forums)The intent of Spirit Shell is to provide a frequent-use absorb that recreates some of the gameplay where Disc priests put absorbs on lots of their teammates. This was a style many Disc priests told us they enjoyed, but was difficult to balance with Power Word: Shield (since PW:S is instant).
At this point, think of Spirit Shell as Heal and Power Word: Shield as Flash Heal.
Evangelism is a spec spell for both Holy and Disc (at least for the moment – things could still change). The talent calculator appears to be incorrect on this. Shadow has Dark Evangelism.
Death Knight (Forums)But we loved Corpse Explosion!
Yes. You do. So do we. Unfortunately, requiring a corpse felt like too steep a requirement for a competitive talent. We would like to still add Corpse Explosion in some form as a glyph. In the meantime, hey presto! - Unholy Blight is back.
Paladin (Forums)There are some incorrect mana costs displayed in the talent calculator for some Protection and Retribution Paladins spells right now. For example, Consecration actually costs 7% of base mana, not 22%. *At the moment; subject to change.
They currently are designed such that they are mana positive while doing their damage and going through their tanking rotations, and stay near full mana the whole time. Mana should not be a consideration to their rotation, rather, it will act as a limit on how much off-healing and other utility spells they can cast.
Does Holy Insight mean Intellect plate is going away?
No. That passive (and appropriate classes should have an equivalent) gives casters larger mana pools than non-casters of the same class. Mana no longer increases with Intellect, but we still want to make sure that, for example, a Holy paladin can cast more heals than a Retribution paladin.
Druid (Forums)- The Druid will select a raid or party member and cast Symbiosis on them.
- The target cannot be another Druid.
- The target gains a buff that tells them what spell they have temporarily learned, and that spell temporarily appears in their spellbook, and they can drag it to an action bar.
- The Druid’s Symbiosis button will become the ability they gained from the target class.
- The Symbiosis link is cancelled if: the Druid clicks off the Symbiosis buff, or the Druid or the target changes continents or enters or exits an instance, or the Druid or the target changes talent specializations.
- Symbiosis fails to cast if Symbiosis is already active on that target.
- Symbiosis cannot be cast in combat.
- For the non-Druid target, the icon will revert to a placeholder (uncastable) Symbiosis icon when Symbiosis ends, but will become the Symbiosis-granted ability again the next time Symbiosis is cast on that target.
- The ability gained from Symbiosis is always something chosen to match the Druid’s specialization and the target’s combat role.
- The target always gets the same spell unless they change combat roles. A Druid of a given specialization always gets the same spell from each different class. If there is a change of specs, there is a change of spell.
Here are some examples of spells gained through Symbiosis. The spells shared focus on utility, cooldowns, and survival. (Adding Fireball to a Moonkin’s rotation sounds cool on paper, but wouldn’t actually be fun in the long run.)
Balance: Chains of Ice, Mirror Image, Mass Dispel
Feral: Feign Death (Play Dead!), Frost Nova, Soul Swap
Guardian: Ice Trap, Fear Ward, Consecration
Restoration: Ice Block, Hand of Sacrifice, Leap of Faith
Hunter: Dash
Warlock: Rejuvenation
Holy Paladin: Rebirth
Arms/Fury Warrior: Enrage
Enhancement/Elemental Shaman: Solar Beam
There are a lot more coming, but we'll keep some surprises for now, and many are still subject to change after testing. Including all of those just listed.
Warlock (Forums)- Ember Tap will be received at a later level and will cost Embers.
- Conflagrate has a 2.0 spell power coefficient (still working on this; subject to change).
- Malady is a level 3 spell that is replaced by Immolate (Destruction) or Corruption (Demonology/Affliction).
- Dark Soul is a replacement for Demon Soul based on spec. We’re experimenting with the exact mechanics.
Wild Imps has not been cut. The code for it simply wasn't ready in time for this talent calculator update. Here, I'll show it to you!
Here is what Dark Soul looks like today:
Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
World of Warcraft War College – Warsong Gulch
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