Dragon Soul Difficulty Change - Power of the Aspects to 10%

Well, I really hope we'll kill Ultraxion (25hc) this week then. Because after working on it for over a week on ~3-6%, it would be stupid to just zerg it down with another buff, removing any of the 'YESSSSSS' factor the kill would have.I don't mind nerfs, but i would appreciate them coming in slower, or being able to toggle the % you want. The 5% nerf brought Ultraxion and Zonozz hc to our level, so we need that. We do NOT need another 5% to trivialize the last few % that are currently our only challenge with those fights....I'm certain we could kill both Ultraxion and Warmaster on the 5% buff, I'm also certain we can't kill it without the buff and we will have a far easiertime doing it on the 10% buff. GG blizz for ruining a perfectly tuned challenge for us

Despite arguments to the contrary, there is a choice involved here. You can choose to leave the debuff on or turn it off. If you're looking for the challenge that doing the raid gives you without the debuff and your raid group isn't interested in turning off the debuff, that is still a choice that is being made. No one is forcing that on anyone. If you personally feel forced, then it may be an option to find another group that is interested in the challenge of doing it without the debuff.

It's official people. They don't give a shit about guilds or hardcore players. Or they are just that stupid.

Because it is so simple to just find another group. It's not LFR, idiot.

We understand that there are players out there who do what they do for recognition and--dare I say it?--glory. Since we'll likely continue to use a model where we introduce a raid, then slowly remove roadblocks over time, there's a possibility that we could do something akin to adding a feat of strength for players who defeat an encounter in a non-debuffed incarnation, or possibly time-stamps on the armory raid progression section. At the very least, there are options on the table for the future. These aren't things we'll be able to do for Dragon Soul though

I guess a title is too much to ask for. Better give something, like a time-stamp, no one cares about otherwise people get jeaulous...
Do they also think top athletes do what they do just for the challenge and don't need rewards? Or do they just want to kill off any hardcore aspect of this game?

See how many people killed LK HC without buff...

As stated there are some fights that no amount of buffs/nerfs will help people kill it because they flat out suck. Lk hrc being a perfect example. A gear score of 12000 won't help you move from shadow trap or out of defile faster.
My quip with blizzard is what little faith they have in the vast majority of the player base.

Quote: 'We're not "nerfing blindly." Keep in mind that, the debuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it.'
I think they are really missing the point.. purposely. At this stage alot of guilds are just trying to get even a high server rank or such. Can you see any guild doing DS hrc 10/25 without the buff now that its available over aother guilds on the server who are around the same level as them. The whole 'bragging' rights line they use is void... that is no longer or merit in this game. For top level guilds winning is winning.. your either first or your not. For other guilds it may be down to server rankings as I said already.

Quote: 'Meanwhile, the debuff affords those that want to progress a bit, who have experienced difficulty, more of a leg-up.'
Ahhh isn't that the point of LFR and even normal mode to a point. EVERYONE is getting to see raid content which was the big thing blizzard were always worried about and the reasoning behind past nerfs etc which now come at an alarming rate.

Quote:'When a group is really close to taking down a boss, but just can't seem to manage it, a bump like this is sometimes enough to see them on to the next challenge. ' And what about the people who want to get it down based on they're own skill and effort and now have to contend with maybe an officer/gm of a guild saying they want to get past this boss NOW.. this just instills the lets wait for the nerf and then clear it. If you can clear lfr/normal then that should be enough.. hrc modes will end being about as difficult as normal mode.

QUOTE: 'It's fine to disagree with us on this, but please make sure that you continue to do so in a constructive manner and refrain from starting flame wars or posting harassing/defamatory language toward posters in the thread.'
Which is basically saying, we will lock any thread disputing our statements because there's no way in hell a wow forum thread will last more than 2 pages with out people flaming each other. Using the 'flaming' excuse to lock what maybe a fairly constructive thread instead of just deleting the nab posts and giving the individual posters a temp ban or whatever... nah couldnt be doing that.

CBA dancing around with this company anymore.

Originally Posted by Rude Hero

The buff is so stupid, but not for the reasons you might think.
Saying you can just turn off the buff is like saying you can just not gem and enchant your gear, or refuse to use warcraft food and flasks. No serious raider is ever going to do any of these things, because people like to feel like they're doing everything in their power to fight against impossible odds.

If 'just turning it off' is such a real option, why don't they just do it from day one? Why do exactly zero groups do this with the buff off? This isn't anything but a dangling carrot that blizzard periodically lowers when they think the hamsters are giving up on the treadmill.

Because even the most hardcore elitists appreciate the buff.
They just like to whine on forums against this debuff on bosses to make themselves look hardcore, but in the end they use it just like everyone else.

The current difficulty of heroic bosses is different from what it was in the past, instead of requiring to adopt perfectly to fight dynamics you now have to stack certain classes or certain specs to accomplish something, even if you have the "bestest" players in the world. There were fights where certain classes/specs did better but they were no way that mandatory, this whole expansion it's just a game who can field more druid, mages, shamans etc...

Majority of guilds don't have the luxury of swapping classes in and out like the encounter demands, that's why Blizzard is trying to balance it out for the rest of the population who doesn't raid 7 days per week and for guilds who don't have a waiting line front of their recruitment office.

The only real downside of this nerf/debuff is that the raid will slowly but surely require less healers to a point where most healers will be benched in favor of additional DPS just to plow through the content even faster.

Originally Posted by Gilian

It's official people. They don't give a shit about guilds or hardcore players. Or they are just that stupid.

Because it is so simple to just find another group. It's not LFR, idiot.

That was my exact thought when I read that blue post - just find another group, hunh? So, aside from heroic lockouts, I just jump into trade and pick up a pug to clear this with? I guess I've been doing it all wrong these years applying to a guild, building up a raid spot and working as a team to get these kills.

However I do have to say, to the people complaining about the nerf and no challenge, I either call BS or you're not challenging yourself to do it on 25man. There are not that many people that have cleared heroic mode as claim on these forums. I'm on the number 9 ranked server T13-25 worldwide, #19 overall and there are only 2 guilds that are 8/8 - that's 50 ppl give or take that have killed heroic madness. We're a top 5 guild and are our teams are 2/8 and 3/8 each, so no, there is nothing wrong with a nerf at this time to help the rest of us along. If you think there is, you're doing it wrong, not the other way around. I'm guessing either your actually one of the very few ultra hardcore that actually killed him on 25m and kudos to you or you just watched the youtube video and thought you did.

Laughable.
WoW, making raids easier for the casuals since 2007.

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment

Dragon Soul Difficulty Reduction
MMO Champ JUST published a blog about how effective the 5% nerf was. As the graph indicates, progress is continuing at a healthy, linear rate. It hasn't leveled off. Why are you nerfing heroic mode, again? You explicitly told us that you would not continue with blind nerfs on auto pilot.
We're not "nerfing blindly." Keep in mind that, the debuff can be disabled. So if you and your Raid choose to do so, you can take on the encounter without it. We also explained our thought processes in the original announcement blog about the debuff here.

Despite arguments to the contrary, there is a choice involved here. You can choose to leave the debuff on or turn it off. If you're looking for the challenge that doing the raid gives you without the debuff and your raid group isn't interested in turning off the debuff, that is still a choice that is being made. No one is forcing that on anyone. If you personally feel forced, then it may be an option to find another group that is interested in the challenge of doing it without the debuff.

Is this really Blizzard's response? If we want a challenge, yet your raid doesn't want the buff turned off because they want easy loot... they simply say we need to look for other raids? Okay Blizzard, give me those raids. You owe me tons of things anyway

Originally Posted by Puro

Laughable.
WoW, making raids easier for the casuals since 2007.

Agreed !

I would be ashamed if i would still play World of Warcraft. This game is laughable.

I agree with blizz one this one. If your guild TRULY cares about the challenge you will turn off the buff. The argument "It because the easier mode is there we choose to do it." doesn't fly. Why not do LFR then? Not to mention people who really wanna challenge themselves increase the difficulty on their own. Like the Ironman Challenge. Or playing through Megaman without taking any damage. Completing hell mode in Cave Story without getting any life capsules and using only the polar star. Those people truly care for the challenge. If you don't wanna turn the buff off and complain about it, you in fact don't really care (or a majority of your guild doesn't).

Originally Posted by Eruptor

Agreed !

I would be ashamed if i would still play World of Warcraft. This game is laughable.

The only laughable thing I see is you still reading an posting and taking part in a community of such an annoying game...
Why can't people just quit and along with this stop commenting a game they don't like? If you don't have something good or constructive to say it's better to say nothing at all.

it just entertains me to see this minority rage here. harharhar.

Originally Posted by felix014

I wonder if there are guilds out there without using this buff.I mean, are there still people supporting this idea that "you can just turn it off" ?

While its all good to say just turn the buff off it's not that simple.

Realistically many guilds are competing with each other, maybe not openly, but most guilds aim to beat the next guild and increase their rank on their realm.

If this is the case, then unless every other guilds turns the buff off too, it really isnt a viable option.

At least that's how I view it

Originally Posted by felix014

I wonder if there are guilds out there without using this buff.I mean, are there still people supporting this idea that "you can just turn it off" ?

I do. The fact is that there are so few people who actually want to turn off the debuff, that they don't even have enough for a 10m raid per realm.
Either make a guild that's going to raid without the debuff or stop complaining, the choice is there.
"But the other 9/24 don't want to turn it off" Well, that's not Blizzards problem, but yours, you're clearly not in a group with the right people.

LFR is for people who can't raid with a guild or follow a regular raidschedule for whatever reason.

Normal/Heroic are for dedicated groups
The debuff is there for people who can't make progress anymore for whatever reason. If you want to make progress without the buff, then feel free to turn off the debuff. There really is not much to complain about, other than not being able to choose the level of debuff 5%/10%.

Originally Posted by Szemere

Which is directly countered by the fact that taking less damage also requires less healing.

Did you really have to make an account to say something as silly as that?

You claimed that these nerfs were more severe because of a 3.5% difference in overall health percentage each hit makes. You completely ignored the fact that this nerf also lacks the 30% healing buff ICC had.

You're really going to say that a 30% healing buff is "directly countered" by the need to heal 3.5% less health each hit?

Originally Posted by McNeil

Is this really Blizzard's response? If we want a challenge, yet your raid doesn't want the buff turned off because they want easy loot... they simply say we need to look for other raids? Okay Blizzard, give me those raids. You owe me tons of things anyway

LET me get this straight...what you're saying is you want a challenge yet you still want easy loot???

Haha do you even understand what you just said?

Originally Posted by Puro

Laughable.
WoW, making raids easier for the casuals since 2007.

Because casuals being able to defeat a boss affects your gameplay.. Sounds a little childish, imo.

Originally Posted by Gilian

It's official people. They don't give a shit about guilds or hardcore players. Or they are just that stupid.

Because it is so simple to just find another group. It's not LFR, idiot.

See how many people killed LK HC without buff...

Actually what that statement means is something the community has spouted for ages. If you want to do X in an MMORPG that involves a group, you need to find a group that supports doing X as a focus. If you want to PvE casually, find a casual PvE guild. If you want to do RBG PvP, find a RBG PvP guild.

The fact that most people who claim they want a challenge would never in their wildest dreams actually gimp themselves from anything that makes a fight easier does not make the statement made by Blizzard any less or wrong. If truly no one will actually turn it off, ever, then the complaints of the game being made too easy are utterly hypocritical. Hiding behind the excuse of "Well I'm the only one in my raid that will want to do this..." just means your idea is fringe, not that you are being held down by Blizzard and their legion of casuals.

As for Heroic LK, hardly any guilds notably killed him at 0% on 25man. Paragon went back and did it and posted the video, but as far as I'm know, I don't know of anyone else that bothered. And why should they? He was a tough fight, well done, that had absolutely no room for error at low percentages. But guess what? No one cares who got him at what percentage! Now? All people care about is saying if they got him before Cataclysm shipped or not, if they got a chance to ride Invincible when he was "ooo shiny" and that's it. Same is true of DS in the future, no one will care because like all old content, it is old and therefore no longer relevant.

---------- Post added 2012-02-23 at 03:57 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Rude Hero

No. If people want to do something easy they can do lfr. There should be a ten man easy mode equivalent, too. Should just give us the controls from the start if it's really about giving options.

/whoosh

Go run a marathon. Oh you can't quite make that distance? Okay... I'll reduce the distance by 5%. Now go run it! What it still sucks? Sheesh if you want to run a race just go do a 1-mile jog then noob...

The binary comparisons of easy vs hard are illogical and old. Heroic bosses can still be hard to defeat with a bit of a boost trying to down them and have nothing to do with the LFR versions of these same bosses.

I am the GM of my guild and we are playing with the buff switched OFF. So yes, there are guilds out there doing it. It wasn't an easy choice to make but I also don't want to have cleared everything by April and then have nothing to do and struggle to fill raids for the next 8 months until Blizzard manage to get MoP out.There is a problem though. As every other guild has it switched on and so is killing bosses waaay faster than us, as a Guild leader I come under increasing pressure to switch the buff on to keep up with other guilds. So in answer to the "just switch it off" people, I'm afraid it's just not as simple as that. We already had a guy leave because he was concerned we were dropping doen the rankings.

The idea of putting in the buff from day 1 is a weird one, since obviously all the top guilds would max it out to get every advantage possible for the purposes of world firsts. I personally like the idea of giving the good guilds a chance to do their thing unaided, then introducing the nerfs/buffs/whatever. All the elite competitive guilds had already long cleared the content before the nerfs were added. I prefer heroic raids to normal or LFR because I tend to enjoy the mechanics more, but I also don't play as much as I used to. The days of putting hours upon hours into firefighter or zero lights yogg or heroic lich king and raiding four nights a week just aren't around anymore. If they were, my opinion may be different. I love a challenge, I do my research and everytime I raid I bring my A game, but these nerfs, and the ICC buffs, have always struck me as just a way of helping players get past that brick wall. If you really want to have the satisfaction of being the boss 'pre-nerf' then everyone is still able to do so. But Blizzard is making a game that's supposed to be fun, and people tend to have the most fun while they're progressing towards something.

Oh man, 10% nerf, it seems so quick. Oh well, can't really complain, time to keep progressing.