Update - We just received the following message from Blizzard - "Soon we fly together again…"



Cataclysm Post Mortem - Dungeons and Raids with Scott “Daelo” Mercer
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
As a part of our post mortem series on Cataclysm, we sat down with World of Warcraft Lead Encounter Designer Scott “Daelo” Mercer to hear his thoughts on Cataclysm dungeons and raids.

Q. What were your main goals going into Cataclysm?
We really wanted to make sure we were creating new challenges, strong mechanics, and cool creatures while staying true to the expansion and the themes we wanted to carry out. The three raid dungeons came out well and we had a lot of fun bringing the story of Nefarian and the Twilight’s Hammer to life. We were also able to add some dynamic mechanics in Throne of the Four Winds, which featured players moving across multiple platforms.


Q. How did this evolve over the various content patches?
Zul’Gurub and Zul’Aman were entertaining raids with diverse mechanics, and they translated well when we converted them into Heroic dungeons for patch 4.1. Interesting mechanics and features that once were restricted to raids are now finding their way into our five-player dungeons.

Adding the Dungeon Journal in patch 4.2 was also a major step forward. We wanted to be able to share more information in the game so that players wouldn’t feel the need to go look everything up on external websites. While those sites are great at what they do, we felt like we needed to try to alleviate the need to go out of the game to find the information players wanted to see.

The addition of Raid Finder in patch 4.3 also opened up more opportunities for players to be able to experience our raid content. The feature has proven to be extremely popular, and not just with people who had given up on raiding. Many players use Raid Finder to gear up their secondary characters, gain Valor for the week, or just because it’s fun.

Q. What do you think worked best?
We’ve been reasonably successful with our tuning across all four raid difficulty modes. There were a few warts here and there, but we delivered on the idea that 10-player and 25-player raids could exist at a similar difficulty. We also had some memorable dungeons and cinematic moments in Cataclysm. I’m particularly fond of the interactive bombing run in Grim Batol involving the red drakes. Players really got a sense of the epic scale of Grim Batol, and how well they performed in the event could make clearing the rest of the dungeon much easier.


With our improved tools and the experience we’ve gained over the years, we’ve become better at finding ways to explain the mechanics of our encounters. Our bosses do a better job of warning players of incoming threats. In Dragon Soul we also began to better inform players of mechanics that caused them to die. Providing a better understanding of the encounters to players is an important goal. We feel that losing to a boss and not understanding why is frustrating, just as beating a boss and not understanding why you won is not as satisfying.

Q. What didn’t work out as planned or expected?
Initially, we started off the Heroic dungeons at too high of a difficulty. The difficulty level rather abruptly changed when compared to the Heroics players experienced at the end of Wrath of the Lich King. This major change caught many players off guard, and frustrated some of them. The difficulty also increased the effective amount of time required to complete a dungeon to a longer experience than we wanted. With the release of patch 4.3 we’re now in a much better place. We’ve always talked about being able to complete a dungeon over lunch, and the Hour of Twilight dungeons get us back to that goal. End Time, Well of Eternity, and Hour of Twilight all provide epic play experiences to our players, but at the real sweet spot of difficulty, complexity, and time commitment.

Q. Was there anything that surprised you about how players reacted to a particular encounter?

Not particularly. Something we’ve learned over the years is to expect the unexpected. The community is very creative and intelligent. The most important thing for us is that players are having fun. They often find interesting ways of approaching things that maybe we didn’t expect, but as long the creative solution is still fun for everyone, we usually don’t have a problem with it.

Q. What have you learned from Cataclysm and what are some of your top goals for Mists of Pandaria?
We learned we could create a crazy encounter like the Spine of Deathwing. It took a lot of hard work from the whole team and it was a difficult design challenge to tackle. How do you orchestrate a fight on the back of a gigantic flying dragon without inducing nausea? How do we make sure you feel like you’re on Deathwing? Delivering that experience was really important and everyone wanted the opportunity to work on it. What was really great was that we launched the story of Cataclysm with the cinematic that showed Deathwing having his elementium plates being put on, then we end the expansion with those very same plates being torn off. It gives some real closure to storyline.


For Mists of Pandaria, we will continue to provide new dungeons and raids while also presenting interesting new types of content in the form of challenge modes and scenarios. Players will also be introduced to new enemies in the Sha, Mogu, and Mantids. Making those creatures come to life will be a lot of fun.

Q. Do you have a favorite dungeon or encounter from Cataclysm?
There are so many. The Conclave of Wind was a great one. Working out interesting mechanics that allowed players to go from platform to platform was a lot of fun and the environment felt really epic. A fight like that was a goal of the encounter team for a very long time.

Blackwing Descent was another favorite and working out the mechanics for the Atramedes fight gave us a lot to think about. How do you create an encounter with a blind dragon that fights? So we gave him sonar and showed the interaction with a sound meter on the player’s UI.


In Bastion of Twilight, we really got to sell the corruption angle on Cho’gall which made for another really interesting fight.

Q. Is there a certain mechanic that you always wanted to do but couldn’t do prior to Cataclysm?
Not really. There are so many cool ideas to work with that I never feel held back. It’s easy to be creatively inspired by the people around you and their energy. It’s never a problem of coming up with ideas. It’s usually deciding which ones we want to go with next, but the possibilities are endless.

Q. Do you have a “dream” dungeon or encounter that you’d like to create if you had the opportunity?
I’ve never felt that I haven’t been able to do the things I want to do. Everyone on the team is completely dedicated to giving us unlimited opportunities to make epic and awesome experiences. But, if I have to mention something, it would be huge giant death robots. We had Mimiron in Ulduar, but you just can’t have too many death robots.

Thank you for your time, Scott.
You’re welcome.

Discuss the latest Cataclysm Post Mortem here.

Darkmoon Faire Issues
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker)
February’s Darkmoon Faire achievement progress status was cleared prior to the launch of March's faire. Any achievements that were started but not completed have had their criteria reset. Completed achievements are unaffected. We previously announced that this was resolved for this month and going forward, unfortunately, that did not happen and this is still being investigated for a resolution.

The following achievements are most likely impacted:

Darkmoon Defender
Darkmoon Dungeoneer
Darkmoon Despoiler

Regrettably, we are not able to restore any progress you may have made during February's faire. We understand the impact this may have had and sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused.

Curse March Gaming Bracket Challenge - Round 2!
The March Gaming Bracket Challenge presented by Curse and Alienware is a tournament that pits video game characters against one another for multiple rounds of voting!

Each week in March we will be matching up characters from all ends of the gaming universe; from Skyrim to Starcraft, WoW to Minecraft. Selection of the characters that make it through to the next round is up to you since your votes decide who rises up and who falls in this arena! You can see the full bracket here.

Each week we are giving away one Alienware X51 (US residents only), so don't forget to enter to win and vote for your favorite characters.



MMO-Report
The MMO Report has a special episode about RIFT this week!

This article was originally published in forum thread: Cataclysm Post Mortem - Dungeons and Raids, Darkmoon Faire Issues, MMO Report started by chaud View original post
Comments 370 Comments
  1. mmoc35b20e5c6b's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by VanishO2 View Post
    Ppl should then stop thinking about the gear from other players in this case. We all knew that the "see the content" was just a lame excuse for "I want that drop". You could see all the content a patch later, or now, in LFR, but ppl still complain that they need to see the content... wich is non-existent... since it's the same bosses, same cut-scenes on any dificulty.

    The LFR just made sure that it was the case.
    100% agree. I argued this a while ago. LFR has made the 'see the content' obsolete.
  1. Armourboy's Avatar
    Pretty much sums up for me why my WoW days are done. I'm not really a raider, I have done it in years past but these days I just have too much going on to be reliable enough to do it. I loved the fact they were making heroics more difficult again because it gave me some form of a challenge that didn't involve raiding. Sadly it was short lived.

    I just think they tried to reverse too many things too quickly in one expansion, and generally when it comes to anything like this people don't like it. Tack on top of that the healing overhaul ( which tbh didn't really seem to work), the initial tank threat nerf, DPS needing to find a CC button again and it was just bound to get off on the wrong foot.

    Then couple it with rehased bosses and content, a really bad ending to the Worgen area, spending way too much time on the leveling content compared to end game and its no wonder Cata has been received so poorly.

    I still think one of the reason they didn't put out Abysal Maw is that by the time Firelands hit they knew Cata was basically a bad expansion, so they just wanted to get Deathwing dead and move on to MoP. Overall from beginning to end its probably the poorest work Blizzard has done on a released version of a game in its history, and being where WoW is in its life cycle I just don't see it being a mistake the game every really recovers from.
  1. mmoc058e0f1fe5's Avatar
    the Hour of Twillight Heroics were the best imo. They were fast, fun and did not lose difficulty.
  1. david0925's Avatar
    did not lose difficulty
    wat? They were easier than Wrath heroics
  1. mmoc35b20e5c6b's Avatar
    Hm. Why can't Blizzard just stick to something simple. I am well aware of the intricacies of game development, but what I am about to write is the very core of gaming and should be easy enough, or so one would think.

    Never nerf any content. Why? = Everyone can see content now. NO reason to nerf. Can't beat a boss on normal? Too bad, clearly you can't get there JUST YET, but after trying harder and having more practice you will beat it, making the reward more meaningful. The essence of overcoming a challenge.

    Easy mode - LFR (See all content, lesser rewards.)
    Normal - (Contain challenge for the majority, normal rewards.)
    Hard Mode - (Very hard, for the people that SEEK challenge and are ABLE! The problem with wow is that the loud idiots scream and complain that they cannot do this and want it brought down to their level.

    Want to do hard mode? Work and EARN your way there.


    WoW's problem? Solved. :/ (Raid difficulties anyway, they are still money hungry and lazy.)
  1. OriginZero's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbear View Post
    Since when did that take 5 hours? 30 minutes tops for me. SO it's more of a case players being terrible, not dungeons being too hard.
    I have to call BS on this statement, man. 5 hours is too high, but 30 minutes at the start of the expansion? No way, dude. Around 1hr 30min to 2 hours sounds more accurate, and that's how most Cata 5-mans were when it was released.
  1. zezel81's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginZero View Post
    I have to call BS on this statement, man. 5 hours is too high, but 30 minutes at the start of the expansion? No way, dude. Around 1hr 30min to 2 hours sounds more accurate, and that's how most Cata 5-mans were when it was released.
    I did 45mins to 1hr at the start of the expansion. I think the quality of players at the start is better then declines after a few months. Just like the new Heroic was good first week or 2 then the baddies roll in.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 12:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vajarra View Post
    Ugh, I really hope they don't have a situation like ZA/ZG again. Only 2 dungeons for a tier, that are difficult to pug, and have a very um... let's say "distinctive" (ie, hideous) visual style to the loot. I still haven't even completed both of them.
    lol... i could care u if you want
  1. Lobstarrr's Avatar
    Did they just say spine was a fun and well designed encounter????????
  1. NorthernFalcon's Avatar
    A lot of people here seem not to understand simple economics. Blizzard lost two million subs in Cata. Do you really think those were all hardcore raiders who thought the game was too easy? No. Two million is bigger than the entire hardcore raiding playerbase, by quite a lot.

    No, those were "bads." They left because no one wants to spend 5 hours wiping in heroic Grim Batol. They left because the inaccessibility of heroics left them nothing to do. And if your response is "the game didn't need them anyways," 600 layoffs at Blizzard would like to tell you otherwise. The bads need easy heroics and easy LFR to keep playing. The game needs them. You carrying bads through heroics is what pays the development costs for your heroic raids. Remember that next time you wipe five times on Echo of Baine trash.

    If you're complaining that heroics are too easy now, maybe you should be running something harder. Like a heroic raid. Just a thought.
  1. Deadanon's Avatar
    More store mounts.... Blizzard loosing more subs so they need to balance the books... Typical - instead of createing better content and not leaving the game for 8-10 months with no new content.
  1. Maelstrom51's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Baaltheron View Post
    Never nerf any content. Why? = Everyone can see content now. NO reason to nerf. Can't beat a boss on normal? Too bad, clearly you can't get there JUST YET, but after trying harder and having more practice you will beat it, making the reward more meaningful. The essence of overcoming a challenge.
    I think you're grossly overestimating the skill level of the playerbase. Some raid groups are hitting road blocks they cannot and will not ever surpass without nerfs. And, since Blizzard is a business and want their playerbase to stick around, they'll nerf the content so those people still have something to do. Its quite simple really.
  1. Deadanon's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernFalcon View Post
    A lot of people here seem not to understand simple economics. Blizzard lost two million subs in Cata. Do you really think those were all hardcore raiders who thought the game was too easy? No. Two million is bigger than the entire hardcore raiding playerbase, by quite a lot.

    No, those were "bads." They left because no one wants to spend 5 hours wiping in heroic Grim Batol. They left because the inaccessibility of heroics left them nothing to do. And if your response is "the game didn't need them anyways," 600 layoffs at Blizzard would like to tell you otherwise. The bads need easy heroics and easy LFR to keep playing. The game needs them. You carrying bads through heroics is what pays the development costs for your heroic raids. Remember that next time you wipe five times on Echo of Baine trash.

    If you're complaining that heroics are too easy now, maybe you should be running something harder. Like a heroic raid. Just a thought.
    The difficulty of content depends mostly on the gear you wear. The first set of dungeons were too difficult cause ppl still had crappy gear. In the last 3 you very rarely go in without at least 2 ppl that are overgearing it and making it alot easier. Specially if they are healer and tank.

    There are also alot of things ppl have forgotten about the starting dungeons in Cata. They had all sorts of issues cause the difficulty from one to the next was not equal. Not to mention that the graphic settings very often determined the encounter difficulty cause some essential features were missing in lower settings - Like things on the ground that needed to be avoided. That is just disasterous design and just not acceptable.

    Overall - there are 2-3 good dungeons in Cata. But some of them are too long and just boring when you do them for the 50th + time. But thats mainly because BLizzard is now spendin 2 WHOLE YEARS bettween expansions with the same amount of dungeons. And thats just another thing that is not acceptable.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-06 at 12:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    I think you're grossly overestimating the skill level of the playerbase. Some raid groups are hitting road blocks they cannot and will not ever surpass without nerfs. And, since Blizzard is a business and want their playerbase to stick around, they'll nerf the content so those people still have something to do. Its quite simple really.
    The main reason ppl hit road blocks is because ppl quit the game and new ones need to be geared up.

    There is also possible to reduce these roadblocks with better quality gear coming in like first and second month after release of new raid content.
  1. Anri's Avatar
    i think this two spectral mounts are from the beta. in BC Alpha and Beta build, u got these mounts for ride
  1. OriginZero's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Baaltheron View Post
    Hm. Why can't Blizzard just stick to something simple. I am well aware of the intricacies of game development, but what I am about to write is the very core of gaming and should be easy enough, or so one would think.

    Never nerf any content. Why? = Everyone can see content now. NO reason to nerf. Can't beat a boss on normal? Too bad, clearly you can't get there JUST YET, but after trying harder and having more practice you will beat it, making the reward more meaningful. The essence of overcoming a challenge.

    Easy mode - LFR (See all content, lesser rewards.)
    Normal - (Contain challenge for the majority, normal rewards.)
    Hard Mode - (Very hard, for the people that SEEK challenge and are ABLE! The problem with wow is that the loud idiots scream and complain that they cannot do this and want it brought down to their level.

    Want to do hard mode? Work and EARN your way there.


    WoW's problem? Solved. :/ (Raid difficulties anyway, they are still money hungry and lazy.)

    Yeah, we don't need LFR, Normal, and Hard Mode.

    We don't even need 10/25 mans.

    Let's just have one, 15 man raid. Then, they can just work on multiple raids of different difficulties. Open expansion with 5 raids. 3 easy, 2 medium. That should cover content for quite a bit of time with the leveling process, 5-mans, then bam raid progression.

    Release a second patch with a couple new 5-mans, 3 raids (2 mediums and a hard). No gear reset. To get to the new raids, you'll need to do the old raids. Hell, put attunements back in, too. They're story based walls, better than silly artificial walls where you have to wait to this date or so to get into content.

    Multiple difficulties add to design time, and sacrifices content. If you reset gear, you make current raids pretty much obsolete. Blackwing Descent was out of date just as much as Black Temple once Firelands came out. That's sad seeing as it is still current expansion content.

    Let's look at how instances work in BC:

    Karazhan -> Zul'Aman -> Gruul's Lair -> SSC/TK-> Black Temple -> Sunwell

    Progression based.

    End of Cata:

    Dragon Soul (LFR) -> Dragon Soul (Normal) -> Dragon Soul (heroic)

    There's something wrong with that picture. Sure, progression, perhaps, but very boring progression.

    Say you skip LFR cause your guild can go right into normal:

    Dragon Soul (Normal) -> Dragon Soul (Heroic)

    Say you only do one week of Normal and move to Heroic cause you're guild is hardcore.

    Dragon Soul (Heroic)

    There goes progression. Why do the other two difficulties when it's basically the same content?

    Once you beat Normal, how do you convince a guild to continue to heroic? Just cause it'll be more challenging? I mean, we just saw all the content. Nothing is going to change other than slight things to make it a bit more difficult. That's not fun.

    What Blizzard needs to realize is that not everyone needs to see the content, and this is coming from a guy who probably wouldn't see all of the content if it was set up like that, either. Not everyone needs epics, not everyone can really earn them. But, they'll aspire to do so. That gives people something to do, something to keep playing for.

    Having everyone wearing epics that look pretty much the same from 3 different versions of the same instances only different based on ilevel and tags that say LFR or Heroic isn't going to inspire me to want to play.

    Cut down the amount of difficulty, create new content, stop giving out purple items as they mean nothing at this point. In fact, never let a person doing a 5-man have a purple item. Never let epics drop from a 5-man.

    It's gotta be something they look into because the current model isn't working. It's burning out content faster than they can create it, and leading to large gaps of content before new releases, which then are lacking content due to all the modes they had to design.

    Someone else has to see this, right?
  1. Jumpieboi's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernFalcon View Post
    A lot of people here seem not to understand simple economics. Blizzard lost two million subs in Cata. Do you really think those were all hardcore raiders who thought the game was too easy? No. Two million is bigger than the entire hardcore raiding playerbase, by quite a lot.

    No, those were "bads." They left because no one wants to spend 5 hours wiping in heroic Grim Batol. They left because the inaccessibility of heroics left them nothing to do. And if your response is "the game didn't need them anyways," 600 layoffs at Blizzard would like to tell you otherwise. The bads need easy heroics and easy LFR to keep playing. The game needs them. You carrying bads through heroics is what pays the development costs for your heroic raids. Remember that next time you wipe five times on Echo of Baine trash.

    If you're complaining that heroics are too easy now, maybe you should be running something harder. Like a heroic raid. Just a thought.
    Why are people like this always ignored and put down?

    But yet the ones complaining like two year olds are held up as gods?

    Please, have some sense people.
  1. kojinshugi's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadanon View Post

    The main reason ppl hit road blocks is because ppl quit the game and new ones need to be geared up.

    There is also possible to reduce these roadblocks with better quality gear coming in like first and second month after release of new raid content.
    Nope, it's not the new people, it's the old people who can't push their buttons fast enough regardless of full 397 gear.

    A casual guild is not going to kick people for being in the 30th percentile on epeenbot. They'll just try to compensate for the worse players with better players, but since encounters these days include so much hair-trigger target swapping, you can't always do that. If you have ranged players who just can't switch targets for the life of them, who drop from 40k on Ultraxion to 10k on Blackhorn, what are you going to do, except pray for nerfs?

    If you are in an actual raiding guild where you kick bads, you should have cleared the content by now.
  1. MikeLive's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginZero View Post
    Yeah, we don't need LFR, Normal, and Hard Mode.

    We don't even need 10/25 mans.

    Let's just have one, 15 man raid. Then, they can just work on multiple raids of different difficulties. Open expansion with 5 raids. 3 easy, 2 medium. That should cover content for quite a bit of time with the leveling process, 5-mans, then bam raid progression.

    Release a second patch with a couple new 5-mans, 3 raids (2 mediums and a hard). No gear reset. To get to the new raids, you'll need to do the old raids. Hell, put attunements back in, too. They're story based walls, better than silly artificial walls where you have to wait to this date or so to get into content.

    Multiple difficulties add to design time, and sacrifices content. If you reset gear, you make current raids pretty much obsolete. Blackwing Descent was out of date just as much as Black Temple once Firelands came out. That's sad seeing as it is still current expansion content.

    Let's look at how instances work in BC:

    Karazhan -> Zul'Aman -> Gruul's Lair -> SSC/TK-> Black Temple -> Sunwell

    Progression based.

    End of Cata:

    Dragon Soul (LFR) -> Dragon Soul (Normal) -> Dragon Soul (heroic)

    There's something wrong with that picture. Sure, progression, perhaps, but very boring progression.

    Say you skip LFR cause your guild can go right into normal:

    Dragon Soul (Normal) -> Dragon Soul (Heroic)

    Say you only do one week of Normal and move to Heroic cause you're guild is hardcore.

    Dragon Soul (Heroic)

    There goes progression. Why do the other two difficulties when it's basically the same content?

    Once you beat Normal, how do you convince a guild to continue to heroic? Just cause it'll be more challenging? I mean, we just saw all the content. Nothing is going to change other than slight things to make it a bit more difficult. That's not fun.

    What Blizzard needs to realize is that not everyone needs to see the content, and this is coming from a guy who probably wouldn't see all of the content if it was set up like that, either. Not everyone needs epics, not everyone can really earn them. But, they'll aspire to do so. That gives people something to do, something to keep playing for.

    Having everyone wearing epics that look pretty much the same from 3 different versions of the same instances only different based on ilevel and tags that say LFR or Heroic isn't going to inspire me to want to play.

    Cut down the amount of difficulty, create new content, stop giving out purple items as they mean nothing at this point. In fact, never let a person doing a 5-man have a purple item. Never let epics drop from a 5-man.

    It's gotta be something they look into because the current model isn't working. It's burning out content faster than they can create it, and leading to large gaps of content before new releases, which then are lacking content due to all the modes they had to design.

    Someone else has to see this, right?
    I do see the problem there. It's just not the one you want people to see.

    I agree that on a personal level, progressing through all content makes sense. But there's a problem with that.

    First tier of the expansion, everybody, existing and new toons alike, are on the same tier.

    Second tier of the expansion, existing toons are on second tier, but new toons have to find new toons to run the first tier with, as those on the second tier are busy with the second tier.

    As you get to the third and possibly fourth tier, you get an exponential decrease in the number of players seeing new content. As most players would rather be seeing new content, you get an exponential increase in the amount of time and difficulty for progression in older tiers, and thus an exponential decrease in the number of new toons entering raid content.

    So ultimately, Blizzard had to make a choice. Do they keep a chain of progression in an expansion, with the result that only a very small handful of people actually see the end and the vast majority of people are paying for content they will never see? Or do they cut out the middle parts, having shorter progression, but much more people can actually see what they pay for? As a consumer, I think they made the right decision.
  1. MikeLive's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginZero View Post
    Yeah, we don't need LFR, Normal, and Hard Mode.

    We don't even need 10/25 mans.

    Let's just have one, 15 man raid. Then, they can just work on multiple raids of different difficulties. Open expansion with 5 raids. 3 easy, 2 medium. That should cover content for quite a bit of time with the leveling process, 5-mans, then bam raid progression.

    Release a second patch with a couple new 5-mans, 3 raids (2 mediums and a hard). No gear reset. To get to the new raids, you'll need to do the old raids. Hell, put attunements back in, too. They're story based walls, better than silly artificial walls where you have to wait to this date or so to get into content.

    Multiple difficulties add to design time, and sacrifices content. If you reset gear, you make current raids pretty much obsolete. Blackwing Descent was out of date just as much as Black Temple once Firelands came out. That's sad seeing as it is still current expansion content.

    Let's look at how instances work in BC:

    Karazhan -> Zul'Aman -> Gruul's Lair -> SSC/TK-> Black Temple -> Sunwell

    Progression based.

    End of Cata:

    Dragon Soul (LFR) -> Dragon Soul (Normal) -> Dragon Soul (heroic)

    There's something wrong with that picture. Sure, progression, perhaps, but very boring progression.

    Say you skip LFR cause your guild can go right into normal:

    Dragon Soul (Normal) -> Dragon Soul (Heroic)

    Say you only do one week of Normal and move to Heroic cause you're guild is hardcore.

    Dragon Soul (Heroic)

    There goes progression. Why do the other two difficulties when it's basically the same content?

    Once you beat Normal, how do you convince a guild to continue to heroic? Just cause it'll be more challenging? I mean, we just saw all the content. Nothing is going to change other than slight things to make it a bit more difficult. That's not fun.

    What Blizzard needs to realize is that not everyone needs to see the content, and this is coming from a guy who probably wouldn't see all of the content if it was set up like that, either. Not everyone needs epics, not everyone can really earn them. But, they'll aspire to do so. That gives people something to do, something to keep playing for.

    Having everyone wearing epics that look pretty much the same from 3 different versions of the same instances only different based on ilevel and tags that say LFR or Heroic isn't going to inspire me to want to play.

    Cut down the amount of difficulty, create new content, stop giving out purple items as they mean nothing at this point. In fact, never let a person doing a 5-man have a purple item. Never let epics drop from a 5-man.

    It's gotta be something they look into because the current model isn't working. It's burning out content faster than they can create it, and leading to large gaps of content before new releases, which then are lacking content due to all the modes they had to design.

    Someone else has to see this, right?
    I do see the problem there. It's just not the one you want people to see.

    I agree that on a personal level, progressing through all content makes sense. But there's a problem with that.

    First tier of the expansion, everybody, existing and new toons alike, are on the same tier.

    Second tier of the expansion, existing toons are on second tier, but new toons have to find new toons to run the first tier with, as those on the second tier are busy with the second tier.

    As you get to the third and possibly fourth tier, you get an exponential decrease in the number of players seeing new content. As most players would rather be seeing new content, you get an exponential increase in the amount of time and difficulty for progression in older tiers, and thus an exponential decrease in the number of new toons entering raid content.

    So ultimately, Blizzard had to make a choice. Do they keep a chain of progression in an expansion, with the result that only a very small handful of people actually see the end and the vast majority of people are paying for content they will never see? Or do they cut out the middle parts, having shorter progression, but much more people can actually see what they pay for? As a consumer, I think they made the right decision.
  1. SnowBlood's Avatar
    but we delivered on the idea that 10-player and 25-player raids could exist at a similar difficulty.
    I can't believe he said that. It's completely 100% untrue. I'm a non-violent, and I would punch this idiot in the face for being so stupid and blind.
  1. risingforce's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginZero View Post
    Karazhan -> Zul'Aman -> Gruul's Lair -> SSC/TK-> Black Temple -> Sunwell

    Progression based.

    End of Cata:

    Dragon Soul (LFR) -> Dragon Soul (Normal) -> Dragon Soul (heroic)

    There's something wrong with that picture. Sure, progression, perhaps, but very boring progression.
    Aren't you comparing progressions of TBC [an entire expansion] to Hour of Twilight --which is just a patch?

    Sorry if I misunderstood, but it seems an unfair comparison otherwise.

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