MMO-Champion - Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design
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Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
We recently released an update to the Mists of Pandaria talent tree. Since the expansion is still in development, these updates represent a snapshot of where we are at any given moment and not a final design where we step back and say “Ladies and gentlemen, we have achieved perfection. Let us not change a thing.” If you’ve been playing the game for a while, you’ve probably realized by now that we never think we’ll hit perfection, and we probably never will.

One design that we haven’t focused on much yet is the plan for various group buffs and debuffs. Some specs have their buffs in place and some do not. Rather than trying to describe each omission, we thought we’d just dump the whole design on you here. As with the rest of the expansion’s systems, we’re not even in beta yet, so there’s plenty of time for things to change.

First, some underlying design goals, so you might understand where we’re coming from. Our main goals for group buffs are:


  • Make you feel more powerful when grouped with other players.
  • Give you lots of freedom to invite whom you want. This gets to be a problem when there are too many mandatory buffs spread out among too many specs. . .
  • …But not offer too many incentives to class stack. If you can achieve every buff with, say, only three players, then there might be a tendency to fill all of the other slots with whoever is best for a particular situation. Some class stacking is inevitable at the cutting-edge level, but to some extent, the players on the cutting edge of raiding enjoy extreme min-maxing. For the rest of us, we try to make sure you can finish all of the encounters without feeling like you need a huge roster of folks waiting in the wings for their one fight.
  • We tend to be more generous to DPS specs, since groups -- especially raids -- already have ample reasons to bring tanks and healers.
  • We generally don’t want a DPS spec to have to switch to a different spec in the same role just to bring a different buff. An example would be a Combat rogue who has to go Assassination just for a buff. In our experience, players are less likely to switch from a ranged to a melee DPS spec just for a buff, so DPS shaman and DPS druids might bring different buffs.

And finally some notes on the categories below:


  • The list only includes what we consider “traditional” buffs, such as Prayer of Fortitude. It doesn’t include utility like being great at snaring, battle rez, knock backs, high DPS while moving, and other mechanics. Those ultimately all factor into a raid or Battleground comp as well.
  • The matrix is a little more complex than it appears. A paladin, for example, can only offer one Blessing at a time, while a warrior can only do one shout at a time. You can’t assume one character can cover every buff or debuff listed below at the same time.
  • Some of these are active (you must cast them, like Prayer of Fortitude) while others are passive. Note that totems no longer bring passive buffs as a rule.
  • You’ll see several categories consolidated or gone. Bleeds no longer made sense, since everyone who cared about bleeds already buffed themselves. Magical resistance we just removed from the game, though there are some abilities that provide magical damage reduction.
  • We are still likely to use the design that hunters, especially Beastmaster hunters, can fill in for missing buffs or debuffs by using certain pets.

As always, we’d love to get your feedback on this design.

Buffs

Stats
Effect: +5% Strength, Agility, and Intellect
Example: Blessing of Kings
Brought by: Any druid, any monk, any paladin

Stamina
Effect: +10% Stamina
Example: Power Word: Fortitude
Brought by: Any priest, any warlock, any warrior

Attack Power
Effect: +10% melee and ranged attack power (which will be the same value again)
Example: Battle Shout
Brought by: Any death knight, any hunter, any warrior

Spell Power
Effect: +10% spell power (there will no longer be a 6% version)
Example: Arcane Brilliance
Brought by: Any mage, any shaman, any warlock

Haste
Effect: +10% melee and ranged haste
Example: Improved Icy Talons
Brought by: Frost and Unholy death knights, any rogue, Enhancement shaman

Spell Haste
Effect: +5% spell haste
Example: Moonkin Aura
Brought by: Balance druids, Shadow priests, Elemental shaman

Critical Strike
Effect: +5% ranged, melee, and spell critical chance
Example: Leader of the Pack
Brought by: Guardian and Feral druids, any hunter, any mage

Mastery
Effect: +5 mastery
Example: This is a new category
Brought by: Windwalker monks, any paladin, any shaman

Debuffs

Weakened Armor
Effect: -12% armor
Example: Sunder Armor
Brought by: Any druid, any rogue, any warrior

Physical Vulnerability
Effect: +4% physical damage taken
Example: Brittle Bones
Brought by: Frost and Unholy death knights, Retribution paladins, Arms and Fury warriors

Magic Vulnerability
Effect: +8% spell damage taken
Example: Curse of the Elements
Brought by: Any rogue, any warlock

Weakened Blows
Effect: -10% physical damage done
Example: Previously Demoralizing Shout; now Thunder Clap
Brought by: Blood death knight, Feral and Guardian druid, Brewmaster monk, Protection or Retribution paladin, any warrior (any tank)

Slow Casting

Effect: -30% casting speed
Example: Mind-numbing Poison
Brought by: Any death knight, any rogue, any warlock

Mortal Wounds
Effect: -25% healing received
Example: Mortal Strike
Brought by: Arms or Fury warrior, any rogue, any hunter

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He was unsuccessful in convincing the rest of the class team to change Arms warrior mastery to decreased falling damage taken.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design started by chaud View original post
Comments 231 Comments
  1. Sinister Knight's Avatar
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    Bleeds no longer made sense, since everyone who cared about bleeds already buffed themselves.
    Incorrect. Fury Warriors spec for Deep Wounds to apply a Bleed, but cannot spec for Blood Frenzy to improve their own Bleed damage. Not sure where they got the above idea... :/
  1. Dexiefy's Avatar
    sooo since hybrids and pures are supposed to deal exactly he same damage, but hybrids still have their VASTLY superior utility, this is how they want to fight this problem? by giving mage 1 raid buff and hunter 2 raid buffs? Pets bringing buffs for hunters is already broken system cause often you have to take pet that is dps loss for you and you lose ability to switch pets during the fight unless you have 5 the same pets... They better give every pure dps class cleave that hybrids can dream of, better survival and fucktons of other things, otherwise they may just aswell remove pures from the game. From the looks of it, hunter should be deleted first.
  1. Eats Compost's Avatar
    This entire system is redundant. If you're expected to have all the tools as soon as you step into a 10-man, what's the point of dividing them up like this in the first place? You could achieve exactly the same "more people, get stronger" effect by giving players a damage boost based on their group size. All we've got is a fluffy system that emulates exactly the same thing while causing issues at the same time. If they want to throw total group equality around, trying to create some kind of intricate, intertwining system is a mistake to begin with.

    I seriously doubt that anyone would bother class stacking for an advantage on certain encounters unless they're in the top 0.5% or so.
  1. Fool's Avatar
    here's the lazy desing again
  1. Lucette's Avatar
    They've kept the 30% casting debuff. Therefore they have failed.

    Every competitive PvPer, or anyone who PvP's with a brain knows how retarded casting debuffs are.
  1. Canthuz's Avatar
    sooo, priests wont be doing debuffs anymore at all ?
  1. Meldon's Avatar
    1 Month ago: We nerf druid multi-target dps because we want to improve their single target
    1 Month later: We take away from you 8% spell dmg so when you are alone or do pvp you suck more than in cata
    Yay! That's the WAY TO GO ! stupid dumbass developers -.-

    The more i read the Elemental shaman buffs and talents the more i want to stop playing my balance druid.
    Please allow players to battle ress if a shaamn in their party has Reincarnatioin ready so that i can stop playing. because a shaman bring:
    +5% spell haste
    +10% spell power
    + 5 mastery
    + tranquillity without even stoppping dps
    + they have Incarnation baseline, are great at aoe dps and on par with boomkins on single target

    a Balance druid brings
    + battle ress? no because any other druid can give it with symbiosis to a paladin
    +5% haste ? no because an elmenal shaman can give it
    +5% stats? no because many other calsses can give it
    +5 mastery? no because that's a buff we can't bring
    +10% spell power? no because it's brought by every other caster class except priests
    +8% spell dmg taken? no because You removed it
    +great aoe dps ? no because fire mages, shadow priest and elmental are on par or better
    +great single target dps? no because without a leggendary weapon and DI we are like shamans and shadow priests and in mop we have nothing more than them
    +great dps while in execute phase? lol NO we are the only retards that can't increase their dps when the boss is under 30%


    They should explain, why the hell someone should bring a moonkin to a raid if we can't do better dps than others, we suck in execute phases, we have to waste 1gcd to increase single target damage, we bring no unique buffs, and every utility that we bring if it does not decrease our dps (tranquillity vs healing Tide totem) can be given by other druid throught symbiosis ?
  1. Crashdummy's Avatar
    So, after an expansion where Restoration Shamans were underperforming most of the time, we get as a reward: We are losing our haste and spell haste buffs. Cool, thanks blizzard. Always healers being beaten down when something needs to be taken out, this is just bullshit.
  1. Nullpointer's Avatar
    I don't think much will change seeing that they're not doing much with the buff system. I'm just glad that Dark Intent now only gives 10% spellpower and it's no longer the tool that defines who tops the chart.
  1. Devidose's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by wowmagic View Post
    Yup, and this is what I am reading for mages... Arcane mages are losing Slow (which is the ONLY viable snare for arcane) and frost(/fire/arcane) are losing the healing debuff... as someone said above, they are really screwing mages... We bring NO debuffs, we bring only 2 buffs... We are a 'pure' class, so it is not an option to fill another role. On top of all that, our buffs can be brought by... wait for it... HYBRID CLASSES!!!! YAY!!!!!. Shaman can bring the spellpower, and druids can bring the crit!!! awesome. just awesome. Screw you too blizz. /end rant
    Glad I'm not the only one noticing this in regards to a mage PoV for the buffs and debuffs we do, or rather don't, bring to the table. Hey, at least we bring a table!...

    Starts feeling like the end of TBC again when mages could and were replaced with other classes as they brought nothing to the raid bar food.
  1. good diu bro's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephyron View Post
    1 Month ago: We nerf druid multi-target dps because we want to improve their single target
    1 Month later: We take away from you 8% spell dmg so when you are alone or do pvp you suck more than in cata
    Yay! That's the WAY TO GO ! stupid dumbass developers -.-
    Its not just the balance druid's issue, the whole buff and debuff is in a mess.
  1. Mallika's Avatar
    Any any any.. except shaman! My poor resto shaman will bring a whole lot of not much. Good thing I'm the GL. :\
  1. Gromnak's Avatar
    "Spell Haste Effect: +5% spell haste Example: Moonkin Aura Brought by: Balance druids, Shadow priests, Elemental shamanCritical Strike Effect: +5% ranged, melee, and spell critical chance Example: Leader of the Pack Brought by: Guardian and Feral druids, any hunter, any mage"


    One problem I see is that a lot of 10 mans currently rely on their resto shaman to provide 5% spell haste, if it's limited to only ele shamans then that could be bad for some groups. Moonkins are probably the least used dps in 10 mans and because shamans are such strong healers right now, most groups don't take en ELE, but a resto instead as having two mail intellect gear classes in a 10 man is dumb. This leaves shadow priests, which are a great option.

    But, Blizzard shouldn't need to cater to 10 mans anyway.

    Also, fury loses 5% crit buff? =(
  1. Lensir's Avatar
    Yup, and this is what I am reading for mages... Arcane mages are losing Slow (which is the ONLY viable snare for arcane)
    Oh really? In the MOP talents tree, Slow is still there. *Poins at 77 level* And no, it's not the only viable snare for arcane.
    We are a 'pure' class, so it is not an option to fill another role. On top of all that, our buffs can be brought by... wait for it... HYBRID CLASSES!!!! YAY!!!!!. Shaman can bring the spellpower, and druids can bring the crit!!! awesome. just awesome. Screw you too blizz. /end rant
    Yeah, so what that you're a "pure"? Being a pure means you can change your playstyle depending your spec. By the way, if you don't enjoy the game, just quit and save people form facepalming.
  1. gend's Avatar
    Hm the only thing I see wrong with how the buffs are spread out is:

    +5% spell haste: -> Only brought by 3 specs whereas all other buffs/debuffs are at least brought by 5 (usually more). They should spread it out.

    +8% spell damage taken -> Only brought by 2 classes whereas all other buffs/debuffs are at least brought by 3. Considering how important this debuff is they should give it to more classes. For example either moonkins,spriests or shamans.

    Other than that it seems fine. Physical dps in 10man should easily have full buffs/debuffs consistantly unless you stack classes.
  1. Beenieshaman's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    Hm the only thing I see wrong with how the buffs are spread out is:

    +5% spell haste: -> Only brought by 3 specs whereas all other buffs/debuffs are at least brought by 5 (usually more). They should spread it out.

    +8% spell damage taken -> Only brought by 2 classes whereas all other buffs/debuffs are at least brought by 3. Considering how important this debuff is they should give it to more classes. For example either moonkins,spriests or shamans.
    Don't you think Mookins, Priest and Shaman have to much already.

    The haste buff is a problem, need more class Than those those 3hybrid spec that have big chance not to be in a man as DPS
  1. Rorixis's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister Knight View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    Bleeds no longer made sense, since everyone who cared about bleeds already buffed themselves.
    Incorrect. Fury Warriors spec for Deep Wounds to apply a Bleed, but cannot spec for Blood Frenzy to improve their own Bleed damage. Not sure where they got the above idea... :/
    Yeah but that was just a random bleed not a bleed like Arms Feral or Sub had and they all had bleed debuff. Now it's simply removed so all bleeds do 30% more damage without debuff.
  1. chrth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dexiefy View Post
    Pets bringing buffs for hunters is already broken system cause often you have to take pet that is dps loss for you
    Except they've already told us that Hunter pets will be able to use any of the three trees now. Ferocity Sporebats will be viable.
  1. MasterOutlaw's Avatar
    What's so confusing about Rogues bringing +8% Spell Damage? They already do if they're Assassination spec via Master Poisoner and since one of Rogue's primary sources of damage comes from poison (regardless of spec), which is considered spell damage, it makes sense to have it as a base class ability. The real confusion and complaint should be why only two (currently) classes bring the buff.

    Some of the changes presented are questionable, but most of them look great. It's still far too early in development to herald the falling of the sky just yet instead of providing productive feedback on the forums.
  1. knightpt's Avatar
    One of the major problems World of warcraft have is the constant QQ of Class X vs Class Y, meaning that there will always be someone unhappy and since most forums aren't moderated to the extent of decreasing senseless QQ to the point of trolling, there will never be a healthy community environment to this game (and most games btw)


    People should spend more time having fun and less time trying to attack other classes and QQing their own class is diminuished in any way. If they can't have fun and spend most of their time "fighting" for their own class, they should realy realy find something else to do.*


    Imho, ofc.

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