MMO-Champion - Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design
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Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
We recently released an update to the Mists of Pandaria talent tree. Since the expansion is still in development, these updates represent a snapshot of where we are at any given moment and not a final design where we step back and say “Ladies and gentlemen, we have achieved perfection. Let us not change a thing.” If you’ve been playing the game for a while, you’ve probably realized by now that we never think we’ll hit perfection, and we probably never will.

One design that we haven’t focused on much yet is the plan for various group buffs and debuffs. Some specs have their buffs in place and some do not. Rather than trying to describe each omission, we thought we’d just dump the whole design on you here. As with the rest of the expansion’s systems, we’re not even in beta yet, so there’s plenty of time for things to change.

First, some underlying design goals, so you might understand where we’re coming from. Our main goals for group buffs are:


  • Make you feel more powerful when grouped with other players.
  • Give you lots of freedom to invite whom you want. This gets to be a problem when there are too many mandatory buffs spread out among too many specs. . .
  • …But not offer too many incentives to class stack. If you can achieve every buff with, say, only three players, then there might be a tendency to fill all of the other slots with whoever is best for a particular situation. Some class stacking is inevitable at the cutting-edge level, but to some extent, the players on the cutting edge of raiding enjoy extreme min-maxing. For the rest of us, we try to make sure you can finish all of the encounters without feeling like you need a huge roster of folks waiting in the wings for their one fight.
  • We tend to be more generous to DPS specs, since groups -- especially raids -- already have ample reasons to bring tanks and healers.
  • We generally don’t want a DPS spec to have to switch to a different spec in the same role just to bring a different buff. An example would be a Combat rogue who has to go Assassination just for a buff. In our experience, players are less likely to switch from a ranged to a melee DPS spec just for a buff, so DPS shaman and DPS druids might bring different buffs.

And finally some notes on the categories below:


  • The list only includes what we consider “traditional” buffs, such as Prayer of Fortitude. It doesn’t include utility like being great at snaring, battle rez, knock backs, high DPS while moving, and other mechanics. Those ultimately all factor into a raid or Battleground comp as well.
  • The matrix is a little more complex than it appears. A paladin, for example, can only offer one Blessing at a time, while a warrior can only do one shout at a time. You can’t assume one character can cover every buff or debuff listed below at the same time.
  • Some of these are active (you must cast them, like Prayer of Fortitude) while others are passive. Note that totems no longer bring passive buffs as a rule.
  • You’ll see several categories consolidated or gone. Bleeds no longer made sense, since everyone who cared about bleeds already buffed themselves. Magical resistance we just removed from the game, though there are some abilities that provide magical damage reduction.
  • We are still likely to use the design that hunters, especially Beastmaster hunters, can fill in for missing buffs or debuffs by using certain pets.

As always, we’d love to get your feedback on this design.

Buffs

Stats
Effect: +5% Strength, Agility, and Intellect
Example: Blessing of Kings
Brought by: Any druid, any monk, any paladin

Stamina
Effect: +10% Stamina
Example: Power Word: Fortitude
Brought by: Any priest, any warlock, any warrior

Attack Power
Effect: +10% melee and ranged attack power (which will be the same value again)
Example: Battle Shout
Brought by: Any death knight, any hunter, any warrior

Spell Power
Effect: +10% spell power (there will no longer be a 6% version)
Example: Arcane Brilliance
Brought by: Any mage, any shaman, any warlock

Haste
Effect: +10% melee and ranged haste
Example: Improved Icy Talons
Brought by: Frost and Unholy death knights, any rogue, Enhancement shaman

Spell Haste
Effect: +5% spell haste
Example: Moonkin Aura
Brought by: Balance druids, Shadow priests, Elemental shaman

Critical Strike
Effect: +5% ranged, melee, and spell critical chance
Example: Leader of the Pack
Brought by: Guardian and Feral druids, any hunter, any mage

Mastery
Effect: +5 mastery
Example: This is a new category
Brought by: Windwalker monks, any paladin, any shaman

Debuffs

Weakened Armor
Effect: -12% armor
Example: Sunder Armor
Brought by: Any druid, any rogue, any warrior

Physical Vulnerability
Effect: +4% physical damage taken
Example: Brittle Bones
Brought by: Frost and Unholy death knights, Retribution paladins, Arms and Fury warriors

Magic Vulnerability
Effect: +8% spell damage taken
Example: Curse of the Elements
Brought by: Any rogue, any warlock

Weakened Blows
Effect: -10% physical damage done
Example: Previously Demoralizing Shout; now Thunder Clap
Brought by: Blood death knight, Feral and Guardian druid, Brewmaster monk, Protection or Retribution paladin, any warrior (any tank)

Slow Casting

Effect: -30% casting speed
Example: Mind-numbing Poison
Brought by: Any death knight, any rogue, any warlock

Mortal Wounds
Effect: -25% healing received
Example: Mortal Strike
Brought by: Arms or Fury warrior, any rogue, any hunter

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He was unsuccessful in convincing the rest of the class team to change Arms warrior mastery to decreased falling damage taken.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design started by chaud View original post
Comments 231 Comments
  1. kushlol's Avatar
    Looks like 10mans may be less raid comp restrictive and they may be able to tune fights on the same level of difficulty as the 25 man versions. Looking great for mists already and a step in the right direction
  1. Beenieshaman's Avatar
    Why don't you juste give everybody the same buffs and end of story davep? heal, tank, dps 10% stamina as well 5% stats Seriously, don't forget the PVP in that, the buffs are just fine like that.
  1. Layuth's Avatar
    R.I.P. World of Warcraft. R.I.P. 25man Raids R.I.P. PvP 2011 Q4 Annual Pass 2012 Q1 SoR 2012 Q2 (What next to save face on millions of lost subscriptions?) These changes are just a continuation of what has already been done to make the game worse.
  1. yrrolock's Avatar
    Idk if anyone else mentioned it, but for the first time gnomes bring all the buffs! They were missing 5% int str agility till now.
  1. Pasture's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by davep View Post
    I think it should go like this. Basically if the buff benefits you greatly you should get it. Only things I didn't fill out is Crit, Mastery, Casting Speed and Healing Received.
    +5% Stats: Any Druid, Any Paladin, Any Shaman, Any Monk
    +10% Stamina: Any tank spec
    +10% Melee/Ranged: Any melee dps spec
    +10% Spellpower: Any caster spec including healers
    +10% Melee Haste: Any melee dps spec
    +5% Spell Haste: Any caster spec including healers
    +5% Crit:
    +5 Mastery:

    -12% armor: Any melee spec including tanks
    +4% physical damage: Any melee dps spec
    +8% spell dmg: Any caster dps spec
    -10% phys dmg done: Any tank spec
    -30% casting speed:
    -25% healing received:
    This.

    There's no point going half way on this. Aiming for all groups to be able to cover buffs, but then falling short (ie making a hybrid caster dps / melee dps mandatory) just defeats the purpose.

    They've gone far enough to piss off the 'omg 25 mans are dead' crew. They might as well just go the whole hog and make it workable for every 10 man. Extra tier in the new talent trees. Each spec has raid buffs relevant to their spec. They pick one of the three. Hey presto you can fully cover buffs.*
  1. kolz4ever's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkguyver2020 View Post
    Of course. Another elitist who thinks they know better. I'm pretty sure you'd be happy to be benched and be unable to experience all of the content just because you enjoy playing a hybrid class. Being forced to level and gear an alt just because the fight calls for it. That's not fun. Last I checked, this was a video game. The only factor should be the person playing the class, not the way the game was designed.
    Oh course, another piece of trash casual wanting everything extremely easy so they stomp on the game in their sleep. L2Play casual instead of crying about people that can play.
  1. Lycefli's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by kolz4ever View Post
    Oh course, another piece of trash casual wanting everything extremely easy so they stomp on the game in their sleep. L2Play casual instead of crying about people that can play.
    Casual does not never has and never will = bad, just like hardcore does not = elitist basement dwelling no-life. Please take your misinformed opinions elsewhere.
  1. rogas's Avatar
    kolz4ever this is what you wrote previously
    Maybe people will finally learn how to raid like the olden days when you had to swap out for classes that did more damage or brought some unique buff to the fight. Hybrid classes shouldn't be able to do everything as well as a pure dps or a main tank spot. You're a HYBRID, you're there to fill in any spots or change things up when a fight calls for it. You shouldn't be able to fit every single damn role in the game and excel at it or you lose the entire point of having certain classes have different play styles. Tired of all the generic crap that has been thrown into the game so everyone can do whatever they want, whenever they want.
    Making the case that all hybrids classes should stay broken, or only fill in the empty spots. So that 'pure' dps classes, like yourself, should feel better about themselves and get raiding spots.btw wich spots should we fill in as a hybrid in 10man raiding?Yes there is a posiblity that Balance druids, Shadow priests, Elemental shaman will get the 5% haste buff ... just learn to live with it ...
  1. Aethenor's Avatar
    Magic Vulnerability Debuff - Should be given to mages as well. Also makes more sense for mages to have this one that rogues anyway. Rogues have a crazy number of buffs/debuffs in the new setup. Having that debuff ONLY apply to warlocks and rogues is far too restrictive. THere are a LOT of 10 man groups that don't have either a rogue or warlock.
  1. Beenieshaman's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Aethenor View Post
    Magic Vulnerability Debuff - Should be given to mages as well. Also makes more sense for mages to have this one that rogues anyway. Rogues have a crazy number of buffs/debuffs in the new setup. Having that debuff ONLY apply to warlocks and rogues is far too restrictive. THere are a LOT of 10 man groups that don't have either a rogue or warlock.
    Good idea and take away the 5%critical from mage and give it to rogues

    Lot of 10mans don't have mages as well.
    Give this buff to mage = no more raid for locks?

    For pvp good idea as well, like that big nerf for mage and nomore dps
  1. Deadraline's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by davep View Post
    I think it should go like this. Basically if the buff benefits you greatly you should get it. Only things I didn't fill out is Crit, Mastery, Casting Speed and Healing Received.
    +5% Stats: Any Druid, Any Paladin, Any Shaman, Any Monk
    +10% Stamina: Any tank spec
    +10% Melee/Ranged: Any melee dps spec
    +10% Spellpower: Any caster spec including healers
    +10% Melee Haste: Any melee dps spec
    +5% Spell Haste: Any caster spec including healers
    +5% Crit:
    +5 Mastery:

    -12% armor: Any melee spec including tanks
    +4% physical damage: Any melee dps spec
    +8% spell dmg: Any caster dps spec
    -10% phys dmg done: Any tank spec
    -30% casting speed:
    -25% healing received:
    This is exactly what I was thinking. Less complex, and people will bring the player not the class in most cases because they will have what buffs they need with only 4 people. I think this is the best way to solve this "bring the player not the class" for buffs issue. And it's still beneficial whenever you are solo questing you can keep the buffs you need for your class, as well as just doing heroics or dungeons in general. Just make it as a passive buff that affects all party or raid members whenever you choose the spec you are going to play as. It's simple and makes the most sense.
  1. Leialyn's Avatar
    Why is there no mage listed at debuffs? :P
  1. Eleveneleven's Avatar
    magic vuln is one class too short
  1. themightysven's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrax View Post
    This is just silly. These or current buffs don't make you feel stronger when in a group because guess what, either you are in a group doing group-related stuff, or you are solo doing solo-related stuff. You never think "wow, yesterday i tried this 5-man instance with my warrior solo i really missed that 10% attack power buff".
    of course you wouldn't say that, warriors get that 10% attack power buff
  1. Ripley6174's Avatar
    Might as well do away with buffs alltogether and just give them automatically upon entering a group. Blizzard's new vision is that stat changes in talents are not interesting, which I agree with, but is a spell that gives 10% more stamina any different? A priest only casts it because it's mandatory, not because it's fun or because he thought it was the right thing to do in that situation, so why not just automatically give the whole group 10% extra stamina when that priest enters the group.
  1. Pandapuncher's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    This.

    There's no point going half way on this. Aiming for all groups to be able to cover buffs, but then falling short (ie making a hybrid caster dps / melee dps mandatory) just defeats the purpose.

    They've gone far enough to piss off the 'omg 25 mans are dead' crew. They might as well just go the whole hog and make it workable for every 10 man. Extra tier in the new talent trees. Each spec has raid buffs relevant to their spec. They pick one of the three. Hey presto you can fully cover buffs.*
    This is actually A cool idea. make a thread
  1. Erik765's Avatar
    Blizz thinks they're working toward perfection...Le sigh...
  1. TrueProphecy22's Avatar
    No more bleed damage?
  1. Kaeleena's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorimli View Post
    Yeah but that was just a random bleed not a bleed like Arms Feral or Sub had and they all had bleed debuff. Now it's simply removed so all bleeds do 30% more damage without debuff.
    Uh how about, I dunno, Combat Rogue. You know, the highest dps melee spec in the game right now. You know, the one that uses Rupture. Yeah well, they can't even use Rupture in a group without a bleed debuff because it's a dps loss over a Eviscerate without the bleed debuff. Yeah, you heard me. Every group that wants to bring the highest dps melee spec to their raid is also forced to bring an Arms Warrior or a Feral Druid.

    Oh, and people bitching about the Spell Damage debuff on Rogues are retarded too. You guys ever hear of Poisons? Yeah? Well they're nature spell damage and until recently also relied on spell hit to connect, even Deadly Poison which only has a 30% chance to proc to begin with.
  1. Mandible's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Beenieshaman View Post
    Good idea and take away the 5%critical from mage and give it to rogues

    Lot of 10mans don't have mages as well.
    Give this buff to mage = no more raid for locks?

    For pvp good idea as well, like that big nerf for mage and nomore dps
    You mean what subtlety rogues allready got...

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