MMO-Champion - Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design
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Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
We recently released an update to the Mists of Pandaria talent tree. Since the expansion is still in development, these updates represent a snapshot of where we are at any given moment and not a final design where we step back and say “Ladies and gentlemen, we have achieved perfection. Let us not change a thing.” If you’ve been playing the game for a while, you’ve probably realized by now that we never think we’ll hit perfection, and we probably never will.

One design that we haven’t focused on much yet is the plan for various group buffs and debuffs. Some specs have their buffs in place and some do not. Rather than trying to describe each omission, we thought we’d just dump the whole design on you here. As with the rest of the expansion’s systems, we’re not even in beta yet, so there’s plenty of time for things to change.

First, some underlying design goals, so you might understand where we’re coming from. Our main goals for group buffs are:


  • Make you feel more powerful when grouped with other players.
  • Give you lots of freedom to invite whom you want. This gets to be a problem when there are too many mandatory buffs spread out among too many specs. . .
  • …But not offer too many incentives to class stack. If you can achieve every buff with, say, only three players, then there might be a tendency to fill all of the other slots with whoever is best for a particular situation. Some class stacking is inevitable at the cutting-edge level, but to some extent, the players on the cutting edge of raiding enjoy extreme min-maxing. For the rest of us, we try to make sure you can finish all of the encounters without feeling like you need a huge roster of folks waiting in the wings for their one fight.
  • We tend to be more generous to DPS specs, since groups -- especially raids -- already have ample reasons to bring tanks and healers.
  • We generally don’t want a DPS spec to have to switch to a different spec in the same role just to bring a different buff. An example would be a Combat rogue who has to go Assassination just for a buff. In our experience, players are less likely to switch from a ranged to a melee DPS spec just for a buff, so DPS shaman and DPS druids might bring different buffs.

And finally some notes on the categories below:


  • The list only includes what we consider “traditional” buffs, such as Prayer of Fortitude. It doesn’t include utility like being great at snaring, battle rez, knock backs, high DPS while moving, and other mechanics. Those ultimately all factor into a raid or Battleground comp as well.
  • The matrix is a little more complex than it appears. A paladin, for example, can only offer one Blessing at a time, while a warrior can only do one shout at a time. You can’t assume one character can cover every buff or debuff listed below at the same time.
  • Some of these are active (you must cast them, like Prayer of Fortitude) while others are passive. Note that totems no longer bring passive buffs as a rule.
  • You’ll see several categories consolidated or gone. Bleeds no longer made sense, since everyone who cared about bleeds already buffed themselves. Magical resistance we just removed from the game, though there are some abilities that provide magical damage reduction.
  • We are still likely to use the design that hunters, especially Beastmaster hunters, can fill in for missing buffs or debuffs by using certain pets.

As always, we’d love to get your feedback on this design.

Buffs

Stats
Effect: +5% Strength, Agility, and Intellect
Example: Blessing of Kings
Brought by: Any druid, any monk, any paladin

Stamina
Effect: +10% Stamina
Example: Power Word: Fortitude
Brought by: Any priest, any warlock, any warrior

Attack Power
Effect: +10% melee and ranged attack power (which will be the same value again)
Example: Battle Shout
Brought by: Any death knight, any hunter, any warrior

Spell Power
Effect: +10% spell power (there will no longer be a 6% version)
Example: Arcane Brilliance
Brought by: Any mage, any shaman, any warlock

Haste
Effect: +10% melee and ranged haste
Example: Improved Icy Talons
Brought by: Frost and Unholy death knights, any rogue, Enhancement shaman

Spell Haste
Effect: +5% spell haste
Example: Moonkin Aura
Brought by: Balance druids, Shadow priests, Elemental shaman

Critical Strike
Effect: +5% ranged, melee, and spell critical chance
Example: Leader of the Pack
Brought by: Guardian and Feral druids, any hunter, any mage

Mastery
Effect: +5 mastery
Example: This is a new category
Brought by: Windwalker monks, any paladin, any shaman

Debuffs

Weakened Armor
Effect: -12% armor
Example: Sunder Armor
Brought by: Any druid, any rogue, any warrior

Physical Vulnerability
Effect: +4% physical damage taken
Example: Brittle Bones
Brought by: Frost and Unholy death knights, Retribution paladins, Arms and Fury warriors

Magic Vulnerability
Effect: +8% spell damage taken
Example: Curse of the Elements
Brought by: Any rogue, any warlock

Weakened Blows
Effect: -10% physical damage done
Example: Previously Demoralizing Shout; now Thunder Clap
Brought by: Blood death knight, Feral and Guardian druid, Brewmaster monk, Protection or Retribution paladin, any warrior (any tank)

Slow Casting

Effect: -30% casting speed
Example: Mind-numbing Poison
Brought by: Any death knight, any rogue, any warlock

Mortal Wounds
Effect: -25% healing received
Example: Mortal Strike
Brought by: Arms or Fury warrior, any rogue, any hunter

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He was unsuccessful in convincing the rest of the class team to change Arms warrior mastery to decreased falling damage taken.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Mists of Pandaria Buff and Debuff Design started by chaud View original post
Comments 231 Comments
  1. Dawn Falcon's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Shadowpriests have nothing beyond their 2 buffs, and stamina is the first buff you'd drop.
    Vampiric dominance.
  1. Pasture's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by rogas View Post
    People should stop whining about the fact the 5% haste buff is only given to Balance druids, Shadow priests, Elemental shaman ...Why ? Because those 3 specs ALSO deserve a raiding spot in 10man set-ups ...
    Just because they deserve a space doesn't mean they will have one. A typical 10 man dps makeup will be 2 melee, a hunter and two casters. We shouldn't have to force our long term mage or warlock to drop a spot for a brand new hybrid dps. Giving a huge caster buff like that only to the hybrid dps just doesn't make sense.*
  1. MasterOutlaw's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bitlovin View Post
    "Bleeds no longer made sense, since everyone who cared about bleeds already buffed themselves."

    Um, except that's not true. Combat Rogue's Rupture was not buffed by Rogues, it was buffed by Druids, for example.
    No, what he said is still valid. The only classes that really truly relied on bleed damage provided their own debuff. That would have been Feral Druids, Arms Warriors, and to a lesser degree Subtlety Rogues. Rupture hasn't been a major staple of Combat's rotation in ages (barely a 1% DPS gain when there's a debuff present) and the only reason Assassination bothers with it is because Venomous Wounds is tied to it and not because of how much damage it does on its own, even with a Mangle debuff.

    Rogues might have bleeds, but that isn't one of our main sources of damage (at least directly) unlike the classes GC was alluding to.
  1. smegdawg's Avatar
    Woo no more boomkins giving out the 8% magic debuff. I don't trust those feathery bastards.
  1. acelora's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Did you even look at the buff list?
    Moonkins have: 5% Stats and 5% Spellhaste
    Shadows have: 10% Stamina and 5% Spellhaste
    Elementals have: 10% Spellpower, 5 Mastery and 5 % Spellhaste
    Further:
    Moonkins provide: 1 Battlerez and tranquility
    Shamans: Healing Rain (which can be talented for 10% magic damage reduction), a self-rez and most important - Heroism.
    Shadowpriests have nothing beyond their 2 buffs, and stamina is the first buff you'd drop.

    And also, no, other classes don't need the spell haste buff, not without buffing (Shadow) Priests and possible Druids in the Buff department.


    Mages have 10% Spellpower, 5% crit and heroism. They don't need more.
    since you mention tranquility and healing rain as part of what druids and shamans can bring. priests can also do 2 hymns that would benefit the raid in the same way.
  1. Kaesebrezen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Falcon View Post
    Vampiric dominance.
    Vampiric Embrace was neglectable, so will be Vampiric Dominance. 15% on 3 low health targets (which will be 5% on each target) won't cut it. That's still neglectable, because healers will bump in their big heals on those low health targets.

    priests can also do 2 hymns that would benefit the raid in the same way.
    Divine Hymn is Holy exclusive as it currently stands, and Hymn of Hope is disc exclusive. So nope, shadows don't have them.
  1. crushinator's Avatar
    Maybe people will finally learn how to raid like the olden days when you had to swap out for classes that did more damage or brought some unique buff to the fight. Hybrid classes shouldn't be able to do everything as well as a pure dps or a main tank spot. You're a HYBRID, you're there to fill in any spots or change things up when a fight calls for it. You shouldn't be able to fit every single damn role in the game and excel at it or you lose the entire point of having certain classes have different play styles. Tired of all the generic crap that has been thrown into the game so everyone can do whatever they want, whenever they want.
  1. Darkguyver2020's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by crushinator View Post
    Maybe people will finally learn how to raid like the olden days when you had to swap out for classes that did more damage or brought some unique buff to the fight. Hybrid classes shouldn't be able to do everything as well as a pure dps or a main tank spot. You're a HYBRID, you're there to fill in any spots or change things up when a fight calls for it. You shouldn't be able to fit every single damn role in the game and excel at it or you lose the entire point of having certain classes have different play styles. Tired of all the generic crap that has been thrown into the game so everyone can do whatever they want, whenever they want.
    Of course. Another elitist who thinks they know better. I'm pretty sure you'd be happy to be benched and be unable to experience all of the content just because you enjoy playing a hybrid class. Being forced to level and gear an alt just because the fight calls for it. That's not fun. Last I checked, this was a video game. The only factor should be the person playing the class, not the way the game was designed.
  1. rogas's Avatar
    hybrid classes and 40man raiding (even 25man) is a thing from the past .... The majority of raiding guilds are 10man these days, so the former 'hybrid' classes can use this boost !If you want this 5% haste buff ... just change ya raid-setup and invite a Balance druids/Shadow priests/Elemental shaman for a change...
  1. cyryc's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Klu View Post
    Another class needs 8% magic reduction, rogue and warlock only doesn't seem like enough. Moonkins and Hunters (pet) losing it doesn't seem the best.
    This.

    SPriest plz
  1. Odina's Avatar
    There should just be an option when you join a group that pops up and you select what buffs you want active. You get 8 /10 people in a 10 man you can only pic 8 of the buff / de-buffs. Same in pvp 25 mans etc. To balance 10 and 25 man you just let them get 2 buffs per person in the 10 man group and have int, stam, mastery etc as baseline to make up the 5 missing between 2 per in 10 man and 25 man buffs.

    This would hit the "you are more powerful grouped up, bring the player not the class, and eliminate "we don't want players going the spec they hate just to bring a buff". Then again when Spec XYZ drops to like 1% of the player base playing they would actually have to work at fixing it with this scenario...so GL getting that in place!
  1. ihaz's Avatar
    how about melees buffs casters
    and casters buffs melees?
  1. Gwynedd's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Mages have 10% Spellpower, 5% crit and heroism. They don't need more.
    I am referring solely to the debuff list.
  1. Lykoskia's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwynedd View Post
    I might have given this to any priest, any mage, and maybe any warlock. I'm not seeing priests or mages bringing any debuffs to the table and it's completely irrelevant for rogues (unless poisons are turning into magical effects?????), whom already cover most of the other debuffs.
    Did it occur to you that poisons are "magical effects"? Which are currently (along with their mechanics and supporting abilities) ~66% of a mut rogue's damage. On another note, now we get 10% haste, w00t!

    +5 mastery buff is gonna be awesome!

    And whoever said that 5% crit buff is gone, /facepalm.
  1. Cernunnos's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lykoskia View Post
    And whoever said that 5% crit buff is gone, /facepalm.
    They could have been referring to Fury Warriors. Because in MOP Fury no longer brings the 5% crit buff, they used to bring via Rampage. Rampage is removed in MOP.





    They have a 30% crit buff, but only for 15 seconds via the level 87 talent War banner.
  1. Okacz's Avatar
    All those changes leading to the state where every raid has the same amount of buffs (read: every buff) is a bit weird. Buffs provided by classes were designed to make raidmaking in wow difficult. Do I take a frost DK for haste buff, or maybe enh shamsn for Bloodlust, even tho our enh shaman is worse? We wont see this question anymore. Evenybody has all buffs now. This state is strange. When buffs are so cheap, why do they even exist now? Blizzard should either remove then or, like somebody had suggested already, give 'a sack of buffs' at the beginning of a raid. Or maybe simply return to a great system, where class buffs were unique, and everybody felt needed in some way.
  1. Cernunnos's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Or maybe simply return to a great system, where class buffs were unique, and everybody felt needed in some way.
    In some cases, all it did was bench classes/players in favour of others because they brought certain buffs. Certain buffs you "have" to have, such as Bloodlust.

    In 25 man it's not so much a problem as to total number of classes you might hve is higher so the chances of you having a class that brings that buff is quite high, but in 10 man, you can find yourself without certain buffs/debuffs quite easily.


    And that was the reason for giving other classes the buffs like bloodlust.


    Prot Paladin
    Prot Warrior
    Rogue
    Fury Warrior
    Warlock
    Mage
    Spriest
    Holy paladin
    Disc priest
    Resto druid

    Without the mage and the changes for cata, a group comp like that in a 10 man run would not have bloodlust.
  1. Bombkirby's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by messiaz View Post
    Just don't agree with you, that was the point of playing 25man, to have all buffs and be stronger.
    I think their doing this to simple things up, and make classes even less unique, this way is easier to go for 10man focus, i'll not be surprised at all if 25man is removed from the game at this point, btw i'm a 10man player that raided about 2-3weeks in 25 and felt in love with it.
    No....in general. Thats what they literally do. They make you stronger when you group up. ...come on guys open your minds, there's more to WoW than raids... I'm talking about game design. You can't disagree with a fact.

    You ARE stronger when playing with other people... so playing with others is beneficial, and you're rewarded by treating WoW like a MMO rather than a single player game.
  1. rogas's Avatar
    Prot PaladinProt WarriorRogueFury WarriorWarlockMageSpriestHoly paladinDisc priestResto druid
    OFC why didn't i think about that; blizz should give you guys all the buffs/debuffs this game has to offer. That way the other 20 benched specs can watch you go raiding ...Ah i get it, we all should reroll one of those specs/classes right?
  1. davep's Avatar
    I think it should go like this. Basically if the buff benefits you greatly you should get it. Only things I didn't fill out is Crit, Mastery, Casting Speed and Healing Received.
    +5% Stats: Any Druid, Any Paladin, Any Shaman, Any Monk
    +10% Stamina: Any tank spec
    +10% Melee/Ranged: Any melee dps spec
    +10% Spellpower: Any caster spec including healers
    +10% Melee Haste: Any melee dps spec
    +5% Spell Haste: Any caster spec including healers
    +5% Crit:
    +5 Mastery:

    -12% armor: Any melee spec including tanks
    +4% physical damage: Any melee dps spec
    +8% spell dmg: Any caster dps spec
    -10% phys dmg done: Any tank spec
    -30% casting speed:
    -25% healing received:

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