MMO-Champion - Dev Watercooler - Mists of Pandaria Looting Explained
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Dev Watercooler - Mists of Pandaria Looting Explained
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Hey, how about that landslide of Mists of Pandaria information? It has taken a few days, and will probably take a few more, for the nuance of everything to really sink in. One of the topics we've been getting lots of questions about is the crazy new loot model we're introducing in Mists. We've answered several related questions in the forums, but thought it might be prudent to just put all the information in one place.

I should clarify that the systems we're introducing are actually pretty simple in practice. I'm only going into a fair amount of detail because those are the kinds of questions we are getting. You don't have to understand all the particulars to participate, and we're certain that it will just all make sense once you are experiencing it in-game instead of hearing it described (that whole "show, don't tell" thing). Let's begin:

Personal Loot

Here is how looting works in today's Raid Finder groups:


  • The boss dies.
  • The game randomly decides which items off of the boss's loot table drop.
  • The group rolls Need, Greed, or Pass on each item.
  • If you were raiding with a group of friends, you might discuss who should get each item. Even if you ultimately lost, hopefully you are happy that a friend got an upgrade and that your group as a whole is now a little bit stronger.
  • But if you're in Raid Finder, you are quite possibly alone with a bunch of strangers.
  • So, if you can Need, you probably do, because there's no time for discussion, some of the rollers may be AFK, and even if you piss someone off, you aren't likely to have to pay the social cost of doing so since you'll never see them again.
  • The highest roll wins.
  • Drama ensues.

Here's how the new Raid Finder system will work in Mists of Pandaria:


  • The boss dies.
  • The game automatically decides who won some loot, and gives those players a spec-appropriate item.
  • Some players may still get mad, but hopefully they are mad at the laws of probability and not at the rest of the raid.

So, realistically, that's really all you need to know to understand how it'll play out in-game. For those looking for more detail, here's what's happening behind the scenes:


  • The boss dies.
  • Each player has a chance to win loot, independent of the other players.
  • For each player who wins loot, the game randomly assigns them a spec-appropriate item from that boss's loot table. This subset contains only items that the game (meaning the designers in this case) thinks are appropriate for your class and current spec.
  • Notice that you aren't rolling Need or Greed. You don't have an option to Pass. The game just says "Take this."
  • You can't trade this item, or that would defeat the purpose of removing the social pressure on groups of strangers. If you don't want the item, you are free to vendor, delete, or disenchant it.

The big difference here is that instead of kill -> loot -> roll, the new system uses kill -> roll -> loot. The loot is not determined until the winners are determined. It's all automatic, and you're under no obligation to pass or roll — these choices no longer exist. The game decides who gets loot, not the players. The end. Nobody is going to be a callous jerk and take the item that you rightfully deserve. Nobody is going to try to talk you into trading an item to them because they are down on their luck and can't ever win a weapon. No DPS dude is going to ninja the tanking shield that you need for your guild to progress.

We understand some players are interested in off-spec or transmogrification loot, and we will consider future changes to the system to accommodate those desires. However, we're not sure fundamentally that Raid Finder is the best avenue for acquiring that loot. You would either need to take it from another player who actually desires it for their main spec, or a conversation would have to take place to make sure nobody else needed it more than you do. In other words, you would have to stop people from just rolling Need whenever they could. I've seen some suggestions that we allow an option for essentially "I'm happy to get loot beyond just what my main spec can use," and maybe that's the kind of approach we could take, but let's make sure the basic design works first. For now, there are other avenues, such as dungeons, faction gear, normal raids or older content to provide off-spec or cosmetic gear.

Here is a model I've seen some people say they want:


  • The boss dies.
  • I get the exact item or items I want.
  • I never have to come back and kill this boss again.
  • I politely ask Blizzard when there will be new content for me to run.

I added that, somewhat tongue in cheek, to point out that the intent of the new system is not to make killing bosses or getting loot more efficient, or to let you choose buffet-style which items you get. We like random loot being random, as long as it isn't so frustratingly random that you stop enjoying the experience. The intent of the new loot system is really to relieve social pressure on a group of random and anonymous strangers. We think it is reasonable for groups of friends, such as the typical raiding guild, to have a discussion about how to divvy up loot. That discussion is a tried and true RPG tradition going back to D&D or earlier. We don't think that is a reasonable expectation for Raid Finder, though.

The personal loot system will initially be used for Raid Finder and for world bosses. We want to use it for world bosses because we want it to be fairly easy to form PUGs to take down these bosses when they're up. If my raiding guild is about to take on a world boss, and some lonely hunter is asking to join the group (it's always a lonely hunter, isn't it?), it would be nice to be able to bring him on without worrying about that jerk taking loot away from me or my friends. We want to foster a "the more the merrier" attitude with world bosses.

This is why it's so important to us that the size of the group shouldn't matter. We don't want guilds to try to kill a world boss with the smallest number of players necessary in order to maximize loot per player. When everyone has their own chance at loot, why not make the group as large as you can? Note that you still have to be a member of the group that taps and kills the boss. We want to have a little bit of competition for world boss kills, especially between the Horde and the Alliance. We think that is part of the fun of world bosses; otherwise, why not just stick the gronn in a cave? (That sounds dirtier than I intended.) We don't want everyone in the zone to get credit just by lurking around. We want you to cooperate with other players, and we're trying to remove barriers to cooperation by eliminating loot drama.

Bonus Roll

We have one other new system that will use part of the personal loot model. This is what we're calling the bonus roll.

Once upon a time, raiders had to invest a lot of time and effort every week preparing for a raid. This felt kind of cool in the abstract because it built anticipation, rewarded players who prepared for raid night, and otherwise just added a little more ceremony to the act of entering the dragon's lair to seek glory and treasure. The reality is that you spent your time killing mobs to farm flask materials or gathering Whipper Root Tubers. The reality didn't match the fantasy and we eventually greatly minimized the need to farm consumables altogether. Of course, that led to another problem, as raiders would log on for raid nights, finish, and then have nothing to do the rest of the week. The bonus roll is intended to give those players something to do that is hopefully more enjoyable than grinding elementals or Blasted Lands boars. We want to see players out in the world doing stuff, and we want that stuff to be a little more interesting (if not downright fun) than farming mats.

The way it works is like this: We have two major Pandaren factions, the Elders and the Craftsmen. Completing daily quests and scenarios for each group earns you one of two currencies. The Craftsmen tokens are spent mostly on cosmetic items. The Elder tokens are spent mostly on power items. The intent here is to let players who want some optional content to be able to devote time to both Craftsmen and Elders, while more min-max focused players or players who don't want such a time commitment can stick to Elders. The Elder tokens can be used to purchase head enchants, some nice purple items, and the kind of gear you've come to expect from factions. However, they also sell an item called a Charm of Good Fortune. Imagine you can complete a quest once a week to buy one Charm for 25 Elder Tokens. You also might be able to save up a few charms, but you won't be able to hoard them until the next tier of content.

If you have one or more Charms of Good Fortune, then whenever you kill a raid boss (in Raid Finder, normal or heroic) then a new UI window will pop up asking if you want to spend your Charm on a bonus roll. If you click yes, then you'll instantly get another shot at that boss's loot table! You will always win something from the bonus roll, such as a pile of gold, gems, or flasks. However, you also have a small (but not miniscule) chance of receiving a piece of epic loot. As with the personal loot system, the item will always be something designed for your current spec. Also, just as with personal loot, the game doesn't analyze if you already have the item, if the item would be an upgrade for you, or if you prefer axes to swords or anything like that.

Most importantly, winning a bonus roll has no effect on what other players win on their bonus rolls or what the boss drops normally. If you have saved up several Charms (this will probably happen when you play but don't raid every week) then you can use one per boss, but you can't cash in multiples on a single boss kill. If you want to save up all of your Charms for the final boss because he (or she in the case of the mantid raid) drops weapons or whatever, that is your prerogative, but you'll only be able to spend one per kill. If you want to save up your Charms for heroic bosses, go for it.

Here is an example of per-person loot and the bonus roll in action:


  • Stan is a death knight.
  • Jim Bob is a warrior.
  • Naomi is a hunter.
  • The three friends run Raid Finder together and tackle Mogu'shan Vaults. They get matched with a bunch of random folks from across their region. On the fourth boss, the Council of Kings, the game decides that Jim Bob wins an item. Jim Bob is a Fury warrior, so the game is either going to give him a two-handed Strength axe or a Strength bracer, because those are the two Fury-appropriate items on the Council of Kings loot table (in this theoretical example). Regardless of what Jim Bob wins, Stan might also win the same items. Naomi won't ever be offered those items, because they aren't appropriate hunter loot. If she had gotten lucky and earned loot for the kill, it would have been hunter appropriate.
  • Let's say Naomi is frustrated because Bob and Stan both won loot and because the trinket she wants won't ever drop. So, she decides to use a Charm of Good Fortune. Let's say she gets lucky and the game decides that she won an item instead of gold, flasks, etc. (Thanks, game!) She might get the trinket she wants, or she might get an Agility neckpiece that is also on the Council of Kings loot table. Her winning an item doesn't affect Stan or Jim Bob or anyone else, even if they use their Charms as well.

Okay, we're almost done here, but I did want to mention two other relevant changes.

Area of Effect Looting

Yes, we are doing area looting. After killing a group of enemies, you may have a bunch of corpses lying around (perhaps because you went all Bladestorm on a bunch of hozen). If you loot one of the corpses, the loot window will include items from all of the nearby corpses for which you have loot rights. Some recent games have incorporated a similar feature, and it's one of those things that players just want in their MMO these days. It's already in and it works fine.

The Future of Valor

The second change I want to mention is that we plan to adjust the role of Valor points. Valor (or the various other names that the currency has had over the years) was originally added to WoW for two reasons: it helped to mitigate really bad luck, for those times when the boss just refused to drop the item you wanted, and it helped encourage players to stay with the group even if they didn't need anything off the next boss.

Over time, we have felt like Valor has taken on too prominent a role, to the point that it risks becoming more important than actual boss loot. This is particularly the case when the tier sets are available on the Valor vendors. We think killing dragons and ransacking their hoard is more epic than shopping at the magic armor store, so we want to shift back toward boss kills being the primary source of epic PvE gear.

In Mists of Pandaria, Valor will be used to power a new feature that allows you to increase the item level of your existing epic items. This means that each week, you can become a little more powerful, hopefully allowing you to kill that boss that has eluded you thus far. There will be a bit of a game in trying to decide when to upgrade your gear versus hoping for a new piece to drop from a raid boss, but our plan is that even heroic gear can be upgraded slightly in this way.

We won't allow you to upgrade Raid Finder gear so much that it becomes better than normal gear, but imagine if you can increase your item level by around eight points. At this time, we're thinking there won't be gear on the Valor vendors at all, but we'll see how that shakes out. Valor will come primarily from dungeons (including challenge modes) and scenarios. You might earn a little from daily quests and raiding as well, but that won't be as efficient.

Final Thoughts

That's a lot of information to absorb all at once I know, and I'm sure it will lead to dozens of questions. It'd be more helpful to us if you were to focus your discussion on how things will feel, and the basic rules of the system, instead of immediately leaping to the conclusion that you've figured out some exploit and ergo the whole thing is doomed to failure. We've stitched up a lot of the egregious loopholes already and the system is a little more complicated behind the scenes than I figured was worth getting into here.

Check it out in beta if you get the chance. Let us know how it feels. We have time to iterate and refine this stuff. Good luck on getting the loot you want, too... but not too quickly.

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. The first epic item he can recall getting was the Drillborer Disk.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Dev Watercooler - Mists of Pandaria Looting Explained started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 524 Comments
  1. Azrile's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelrock View Post
    Way it sounds to me.
    I'm sure folks will argue the probability of either...but...I wouldn't think the same dagger would drop every single week from MoD...yet it seems to.
    I am going to make a guess here. Suppose the devs have it in mind that on average, 4 people should win loot per boss. This means that 25 people will make a hidden roll, and anyone who beat 83 will win. On average, about 4 people will win.

    Ok...now suppose the statistics gods go crazy on that boss

    1. If NOBODY beats 83, my guess is that Blizzard will have a minimum... maybe 2 items. So the two highest rolls.. say 78 and 80 will win an item.

    2. They will also probably have a max.. say 7. So that if 9 people beat 83.. The two lowest rolls will not get an item even though they were above 83

    The thing is, NOBODY can see the actual rolls, so you won´t know if this happened to you. in #2, the two people who beat 83 but didn´t get an item would have no way to tell that they beat 83..

    I am fairly certain Blizzard will not allow a situation where nobody gets loot, nor one where half the raid gets loot. Keep in mind, that 83, 2 and 7 used above were just examples.. they might change the min-max on a per boss basis. We won´t know because we don´t see the rolls. If we start seeing fairly regular instances of where 7 people get loot, but never any where 8 people get loot, then we know what I said is true.
  1. Speedlance's Avatar
    Are people really this stupid that blizzard had to make a big thread to explain the lootrules in LFR mist again? cmon people.
  1. Nelrock's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by VanishO2 View Post
    Except that they alread mentioned something about never letting the entire raid leave with 0 drops. Plus, you'll always get gold. Ppl need to forget what is happening with others around him. If you don't get a drop, it's like you're a hunter and the boss dropped a paladin and dk tier token + 2 spellcaster cloth.

    But the same way it will be really hard to get a full 25 item drop from a single boss, it will be equaly hard to get a 0 item.
    I only heard gold mentioned in relation to using a Pandaren token for a "bonus roll". Unless you're talking about the base gold the boss has on them.
    That's why I mentioned RNG. Many things in WoW should have a low probability...yet seem to happen a lot.
  1. Azrile's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vesci View Post
    I don't know why they can't just use the same system as the holiday events. Item drops, system checks your inventory including bags and bank, if you have the item you can't roll. Simple. In the case of tier pieces it can do a 1/2/3 check and even assign priority. If you have zero, you get it. If you have 1 set piece of that type you lose 20 pts on your roll, 2 set pieces of that type you lose 50 pts, 3 set pieces of that type you can't roll. Class specific.
    They specifically said this change was NOT to make loot more efficient for players to get. They like the rate at which players gear up. This change was added to remove some of the loot drama (and semi-exploits) that occur in LFR.
  1. VanishO2's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Xebu View Post
    Well that will all depend on what they set the % chance of loot to. But yes, otherwise you are correct!
    Even with a lower %, the fact that you can get gear from other places like crafting, pvp, reputation, heroics, Normal/Heroic raid + LFR, etc. it will increase the pace that you get gear by a lot comparing to today's pace.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-27 at 06:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfieone View Post
    Well this system won't be active for Heroics - so that's not a giant concern. I doubt any Raid Finder boss will have a mount attached.
    He is talking about World Bosses. Their loot will be the LFR system and Blizzard said they'll have mounts.
  1. Squeezus's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by aggression View Post
    So they fix one problem by letting it be same, but making making an auto-roll instead of letting ppl roll need, if they already have it anyhow. That's just lol.
    Your lack of understanding is "lol"
  1. Nelrock's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    I am going to make a guess here. Suppose the devs have it in mind that on average, 4 people should win loot per boss. This means that 25 people will make a hidden roll, and anyone who beat 83 will win. On average, about 4 people will win.

    Ok...now suppose the statistics gods go crazy on that boss

    1. If NOBODY beats 83, my guess is that Blizzard will have a minimum... maybe 2 items. So the two highest rolls.. say 78 and 80 will win an item.

    2. They will also probably have a max.. say 7. So that if 9 people beat 83.. The two lowest rolls will not get an item even though they were above 83

    The thing is, NOBODY can see the actual rolls, so you won´t know if this happened to you. in #2, the two people who beat 83 but didn´t get an item would have no way to tell that they beat 83..

    I am fairly certain Blizzard will not allow a situation where nobody gets loot, nor one where half the raid gets loot. Keep in mind, that 83, 2 and 7 used above were just examples.. they might change the min-max on a per boss basis. We won´t know because we don´t see the rolls. If we start seeing fairly regular instances of where 7 people get loot, but never any where 8 people get loot, then we know what I said is true.
    The problem with that though is...it contradicts what they said. If nobody wins an internal...self loot roll...and the determining factor is comparing your self loot roll against others...for, lets say 4 loot spots...well then you are in fact competing against others.
    If they set it in the 70-75 range...I realize it's unlikely all 25 people will roll under that. I also have been playing WoW since it came out and know the games RNG does a lot of weird shit.
  1. Solidusbr's Avatar
    I'm really tired of this LFR loot crap. All those people want is free loot, so, why don't give them a bag with a piece of loot and valor points in the end of the run? (like low lvl dungeons)
  1. VanishO2's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensa View Post
    In my opinion the valor changes are bad for 2 reasons:

    1) it's another attempt to force more and more casual/solo players into raiding by providing fewer opportunities to earn gear outside of the raid environment - GC says so much in the article - and the fact there will be some epics from the Elders faction available doesn't minimize the issue because those will only be useful in the 1st tier of MoP (they have never upgraded the fraction loot during the course of an expansion).

    2) the fact that valor points will allow you to upgrade your gear by up to 8 ilvls (see article) means, quite contrary to their brief flirtation with item squishing, that the difference in the ilvls of the tiers will have to be that much greater to compensate. So not only are they not squishing they are actually increasing the inflation rate of gear stats...just amazing that could do such a 180 degree turn on this subject and make the situation worse and the ultimate item squish they will have to do seem that much worse by comparison.
    But they gave you new factions with new higher ilvl gear. Some ppl mentioned things about the factions being always usefull for the entire xpac, by proving new stuff each tier.

    And yes, the ilvl will be a mess... they can't understand that, even when they understand the problem rising more and more... actually, they don't care probably. Looks like they don't expact WoW to hold long enough (titan?) for it to be a real problem (and by real problem, I mean players complaing A LOT, players leaving and etc.)
  1. Azrile's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by aggression View Post
    So they fix one problem by letting it be same, but making making an auto-roll instead of letting ppl roll need, if they already have it anyhow. That's just lol.
    But now that other person making a roll does not affect your roll. Is it really so hard to understand??

    Old system

    Hunter with ilvl 800 gloves rolls ´need´ on 372 gloves
    You roll need on 372 gloves.
    Hunter rolls 99, you roll 98... he gets gloves, you get nothing. You cry because he doesn´t really need the item and he ´took´your item.

    New system

    Hunter with ilvl 800 gloves rolls
    You roll
    Hunter rolls 99, you roll 98... he gets gloves, you get gloves.

    Stupid people should not ´lol ´ at people who are obviously smarter. Blizzard is doing EXACTLY what their intentions were.. they are removing loot drama. This system is NOT to make drops more efficient to get.. Do people know how to read?? they said that like 5 times.
  1. MasterYi's Avatar
    I like the new system I guess. Either if you are the only Paladin (insert class here) or the raid has 10 Paladins, your chance to loot is the same. Right now, I always count the Conqueror tier users in a LFR raid, as soon as I join. More than 9 people means I leave. Apparently, it won't matter with this new system. If this gets further implemented in more raid styles, there would be no more "class runs" for Bh and the like, since the loot chance will always be the same. No more warlock searching for Bh. 25 Druids gogogo
  1. theturn's Avatar
    So does that mean its possible for everyone or no one to win on each boss? If that's not the case then yes other players are indirectly instead of directly effecting your loot chances. Add that to the valor point changes people like me who never win shit will be stuck in questing greens for a very long time.
  1. Crashdummy's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamial View Post
    How and why do people find this a good system?!? It's like the ultimate stupidity. You might win the same item four weeks in a row, while not getting the item you need (EVEN IF IT DROPS). There HAS and NEEDS to be some sort of "This person already got this item, so if he wins the roll he gets something else class/spec appropraite - if nothing is available this person gets the ability to pass to the next highest roller or take the piece of loot for offspec/sell/de".
    Maybe because the people that like this system understood it and you didnt?

    The probability that you roll 4 times a high roll and win always the same items for your spec is much less than the probability of your item never dropping from the whole pool of loot from the boss in the first place, which is what happens now, especially in 10 mans.
  1. Illitti's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by VanishO2 View Post
    Why would the system wont give you the item because you alread had a higher ilvl? You don't want it because you have better, don't run LFR.
    LFR is not only one boss, one item. Maybe I want the ring from boss X but got the neck that I don't need from boss Y. Also maybe, in the same run, there's someone that gets loot right to the boss but doesn't need the item he gets while I get the item I don't need but he does. All this new system does is that a lot of people will get stuff that they won't need, which means the whole gearing process through LFR is going to be more tedious.

    Also, speaking of myself, I consistently run LFR with my hard mode geared main. Sometimes I do it to test some new spec, rotation or other thing, sometimes I just do it because I find it fun. I certainly don't need any loot and will automatically pass on everything. With this new system, I won't be allowed to do that, and that pisses me off.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanishO2 View Post
    What? So the other player won't be sad that you got 1 item while he didn't? Like when you get sad running brewfest boss and see the guy next to you opening HIS PERSONAL satchel and looting the ram or the kodo and you just looting justice points and get sad?

    It's exactly like the world event satchels, it does not have a single impact on the other players chances.
    These two cases are entirely different. If I pass on loot, you have 24 people to roll against. If there's 4 others like me, running on high geared characters, testing stuff and having fun, you have 20 people who roll against you. With the new system, you always have 25 people rolling against you. This certainly does affect your chances of getting the item.

    The scenario you presented is entirely different, since someone getting an item from their personal satchel indeed has no impact on my chances of getting the item.
  1. VanishO2's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by lios View Post
    I just hope they find a way to incorporate the need for OS item rolls, or I will be attending LFR in my OS without any gear to be useful in that spec.
    And will probably be kicked Ppl in LFR are usually not nice... they won't care about your problem with OS gear and skipping all the other ways to get your OS gear before joining LFR.
  1. Bloodlover's Avatar
    While reading the newest Dev watercooler about the new MoP loot system, I notcied a major flaw in the system. Based on what Ghostcrawler said, the game would be handing out loot to players, even if they didn't want or need it. Let me quote two specific points fron the Dev Watercooler post.:
    Notice that you aren't rolling Need or Greed. You don't have an option to Pass. The game just says "Take this.
    "What? So to put this in current content terms: If I have legendary daggers, and I happened to win the "background roll" after killing a boss, I could potentially be awarded the downgrade dagger off the boss, even when there are alts and others who need this gear more?Also:
    You can't trade this item, or that would defeat the purpose of removing the social pressure on groups of strangers. If you don't want the item, you are free to vendor, delete, or disenchant it.
    This one just flat out confuses me. I'm not sure where this social pressure is coming from, i've certainly never experienced it in any of my LFR runs. Going back to my previous example of the daggers, why not allow me to give those daggers to another rogue who actually wanted them for an upgrade?This system would be a disaster if the expansion launched with it as-is.
  1. VanishO2's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelrock View Post
    I only heard gold mentioned in relation to using a Pandaren token for a "bonus roll". Unless you're talking about the base gold the boss has on them.
    That's why I mentioned RNG. Many things in WoW should have a low probability...yet seem to happen a lot.
    Don't need to heard, just read the news post

    "If you have one or more Charms of Good Fortune, then whenever you kill a raid boss (in Raid Finder, normal or heroic) then a new UI window will pop up asking if you want to spend your Charm on a bonus roll. If you click yes, then you'll instantly get another shot at that boss's loot table! You will always win something from the bonus roll, such as a pile of gold, gems, or flasks. However, you also have a small (but not miniscule) chance of receiving a piece of epic loot."
  1. Chickat's Avatar
    I like these changes, but i hate the fact that if Tim wins a sword one week the next 20 weeks he can win the sword again and again. If you already have the item in you're bags or equipped then you should have to pass.
  1. prankstar's Avatar
    the valor idea sounds ok but knowing blizzard they will mess it up and make it so after a few weeks we have nothing to use valor on
  1. martinboy's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by isendims View Post
    1 major downside. Say a 3rd of the raid doesn't need loot off a boss, it selects people in that third, they get loot. Everyone else is screwed. Where as in our way now, if you don't need gear and you are a good person, you can pass and not screw other people out of loot.
    "and you are a good person, you can pass and not screw other people out of loot", Man, did I laugh at that one

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