Separate 10 and 25 Man Raid Lockout and Reward Changes in Korea

Terrible terrible crap. There is no reason to prop up a less popular and less FUN form of raiding. After years of being forced to do 25mans, I never want to do them again.

Originally Posted by Galeos

Why not? please explain.

Well, 25 mans are just bigger and the mistakes thats made by one player in them would not affect the raid as it would if it were the same in a 10 man. The number of dps and healers are lesser, hence the requirement for a better dpsers.

I do agree that 25mans are harder to organise, but then it really forces the 10man raiders to go 25 mans just because it gives a better ilvl. Its not compeltely fair, I dont mind more drops, but not ilvl and stats...

I don't understand why they are giving this to Korean servers but not to the rest of us. How differently can Korean hardcore players play to American or European hardcore players? If Blizzard are going to change the way raids work for them, then they should really be removed from world first races, surely?

Originally Posted by Taftvalue

I hope this comes to US/EU aswell, deal with it guys 10 man is inferior.

Saying it's inferior doesn't make it true. Sometimes 10-man encounters are easier, sometimes 25-man encounters are easier. If one is generally easier than another, that's a balancing issue.

Originally Posted by Taftvalue

25 takes a lot more work and what did you get for it a whole expansion long? That's right, NOTHING. It's only just that you get better items for more effort lol.

Are you saying that all members of a 25-man raid team do a lot more work? That's not true. A handful of those people do more work, most people actually do less (there is less individual responsibility in a 25-man raid). Is it fair to reward 25-man raid members with better loot, when they're probably doing less work? By your own words, no.

Originally Posted by Taftvalue

I hope this comes to US/EU aswell, deal with it guys 10 man is inferior. I'm especially excited to see the return of separated lockouts, I loved being able to to do the same raid twice. And you can't be serious, you cry about this being unfair? 25 takes a lot more work and what did you get for it a whole expansion long? That's right, NOTHING. It's only just that you get better items for more effort lol.

Lol @ your distorted view of raid difficulty. Just off the top of my head I can name two Cata bosses that were significantly more difficult on 10 man. Halfus & Deathwing. Both were statistically killed more on 25 than 10, pre nerf. But so what.

That's not even the point. 10 mans, when tuned properly, are just as difficult as 25s. It all comes down to tuning. here's why.

-1 battle rez, vs. 3 in 25 man
-Higher chance of missing buffs (although less likely to be an issue these days)
-Losing one player is 10% of your raid in 10 man, and is often unrecoverable if they cannot be revived. This is NOT an issue in 25 man, and you often see progression kills done with 1-2 players down. 1 player in 25 is only 2.5% of your raid, and as long as its not the tank, you're probably okay. An acceptable loss if you will.
-If you're really struggling more in 25 than 10, it's often due to unnoticed slacking on the part of one or more of your other players. If you're carrying 2-3 players in 25 man, you can often pull through with excellent other players picking up the slack. That's nearly impossible for 10 man -- everyone has to pull their weight.

Apples to apples (all players in the raid pulling their weight), then it all comes down to tuning.

Source: Many years and countless hours (all of WotLK & Cata) as a top 20 US tank in 25 man. Hohn @ Spirestone-US

Please please please eu wants

time to learn korean

Originally Posted by Korbany

One of Blizzard's given reasons for LFR being 25 man instead of 10 man, is because 25 man raids are more forgiving of mistakes, lack of coordination and poor player performance than 10 man raids. This of course also applies to normal and heroic difficulty raids.

The simple truth is that 25 man raids are, for the most part, easier than 10 man raids and as such should offer loot of a lower item level than 10 man raids.

And to further expand - if you are only doing 25 man raids, why do you NEED better than 10 man level gear? The answer is you don't, so who cares if your 25 man drops weaker gear than a 10 man.

or the better dps/tank/healer ratio.
LFR is supposed to be easy
if 1 player dies in 10man heroic and you can't res. it's probably a wipe. exact same is true for 25man. but I guess you wouldn't know since its clear you have never done it.
the only hard part about 10man is having the right group comp

Originally Posted by Rivyr

This should not be a korea only thing. there are alot of players in the US that are competative raiders and enjoy doing multiple raids. The US and EU realms should not be left out of this. If people dont want to raid multiple nights during the week then they dont have to, we should not be excluded due to casuals prefference.

Do you really miss being a special snowflake that much? The casual playerbase is far larger than the hardcore snowflakes thinks.

Tired of this 10/25 fanboy fighting...

Hoping for a unique model that suits fine for everyone

OK Blizz...Its pretty obvious those little bastards are paying you on the side or threatening to nuke you so Ima go ahead and do the same...heres 10 dollars extra for this year, and btw ill faking nuke you mang! kk can we be favored now???

Thank god..

please, bring this back. I'm sick of this new model!

am in a 25man guild and its about time but i don't agree with the low ilvl loot but if it stops 25man guilds from dieing then so be it

This is bullsh%t...now they get more gear and better gear than US players. How is that fair for ranking on world of logs??

Implement this in us. Kgo

wtf, they cant just turn around and do this too us after the expansions already started....

Originally Posted by Galeos

Why not? please explain.

Same content, same difficulty-modes should provide same loot. Why do you think 25s should get better gear?

Yeah sure, raiding 10 men is not even half the effort, so it's absolutely fine that you get rewarded the same loot for not even half the effort. You sir or madam have a nice logic.

Really? I have only LFR-experience from 25s perspective, but seems to me a lot of good players can carry bad's easier in 25 than 10s. Also its your own choice if you want to do 10s or 25s, there's so many pro's to 25s already there's no need for spoonfed better loot. You get more loot in 25s than 10s, faster to collect legendaries etc. Based on what really do you think 25s would deserve better loot than 10s? Hoping to see a nice logic from you as well.

Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff

They're doing it so that Korean players have to pay twice a week, instead of just once for their play time. So basically they're getting better gear, and getting to raid twice a week, just so that Blizzard can make more money from them.

Apparently everybody else gets the shaft, just because we pay monthly. Even though if I'm not mistaken, I think Blizzard makes most of their money from the US and Eu. Sure everybody pays roughly the same % when it comes to average income, but overall we pay the higher number.

I don't mind paying what I currently pay. I'd just like to think I'd be treated the same as everybody else. If this doesn't hit live on all servers, I'll probably be hittin' the ole dusty trail.

This pretty much nails the reason why they have done this and also the old Firelands change. They aren't using Korea for guinea pigs testing like others in the thread have suggested. Its all about trying to keep their foothold in the Eastern MMO market. They need to incentivize the Eastern market to play the game more often due to the payment model they have (pay by the hour rather than monthly). This is also why these changes wont migrate across to the US and EU realms. No need to incentivize them as they pay monthly.

Otherwise Blizzards revenue streams will shrink and thats a big nono for the corporate bigwigs and the investing shareholders, which would result in them having to squeeze out more revenue elsewhere (IE: even more regular appearances of sparkly mounts and cutesy minipets in the store). Its a simple business strategy marketed in a positive way to the gamer to delfect the underlying corporate reason for the change. A move like this after the expac is already out hints that interest in MoP from the KR/CN region might be lagging already and not looking as healthy as Blizzard would like.

Originally Posted by Korbany

One of Blizzard's given reasons for LFR being 25 man instead of 10 man, is because 25 man raids are more forgiving of mistakes, lack of coordination and poor player performance than 10 man raids. This of course also applies to normal and heroic difficulty raids.

The simple truth is that 25 man raids are, for the most part, easier than 10 man raids and as such should offer loot of a lower item level than 10 man raids.

And to further expand - if you are only doing 25 man raids, why do you NEED better than 10 man level gear? The answer is you don't, so who cares if your 25 man drops weaker gear than a 10 man.

Have you ever set foot in a 25m raid? Have you ever been the guild master of a 25m guild? Have you done so during Cataclysm? If so, how was your progression? How's your recruitment? Are your officers happy? How's burnout?

I firmly believe people should do whatever they want, but MMO's exist with incentives to expend effort through spurts of time that completely lack enjoyment, because the type of personality that creates a raider is for the payoff. You want to progress as a team and individually, so that's why you endure short-term frustration. Guild Masters are a different breed of masochists, and having been one since 2006, I can say for sure... 25m is infinitely harder to organize no matter how amiable your roster is. To argue that is blind ignorance, so I want to know your resume because you're either the perfect troll, or you're preaching from ignorance.

back to the roots
i hope this change will hit the live servers here in europe & US

Great change. I hope it will eventually come to EU/US.

It might revive 25 man raiding on many realms and bring back many raiders who quit during Cataclysm because their 25 man guilds died.