Separate 10 and 25 Man Raid Lockout and Reward Changes in Korea

why only KR? i like this style, gives more incentive to 25m guilds

Originally Posted by Spotnick

I think I see where this is going... if this ever makes it to the west, the 25 man loot won't be upgradable with valor points, so you get extra reward from playing 25 man, you don't have to farm valor points for that.

Otherwise, you're just killing 10 man raiding, pissing more than half of your raid player base big time.

Ah just like 10m has been killing of 25 since the release of Cata?

Just curias, where exactly does it say you would be forced to do 25 man raids? you have a 10 man lock out and a 25 man lockout, no where does it say you have to do it. That is like saying you have to grind dungeons instead of questing or you have to use all heirloom gear instead of playing in no heirloom gear. A choice on how you spend you time/play the game is not the same as someone forceing you to do something.

if blizzard forced you to raid 25 mans it would look like this. "Due to recent changes on the Korean realms, we have decided to remove 10 man raid content and support just 25 man raids from now on."

Originally Posted by Draeblin

Uhm you realize that this gives a huge advantage to 25m guilds again over 10m guilds?
You get like 6 extra items per boss per week when you go with three additional 10m groups clearing 10m heroic.

You could always try recruiting more or partner up with anoter guild. You know actually be sociable in an MMORPG. But that would require effort on your part. Or you could just be lazy and whine about it.

Originally Posted by Alenarien

Because people actually want something else to do beyond 2 hours of raiding and 100 hours of dailies like, say, more raiding? The actual end-game content which is the predominant focus of WoW as well as PvP?

More lockouts per week, removal of shared lockouts; I would concede on 10/25 keeping the same loot though.

Make it so!

With 16 fecking bosses yeah i bet you will only spend 2hours per week raiding. I currently spend about 12 hours each week raiding and there's only 6bosses out so far.

This is a catch 22 for Blizzard, and it's all with good intentions. I'd hate to be on the dev team for this issue.

This is a situation, like the number crunch, and server merging (CRZ is a huge headache and not remotely helpful), where they have to rip the bandaid off. They have to be willing to let some subs go, and let the forum people cry.

The game needs these things:
1. Remove CRZ, instead merge select servers and implement surnames to remove redundancies
2. Incentives for 25-M raiding (such as these KR changes, but I'd personally prefer they still share the lockout)
3. More loot drops in 10-M raiding to counterbalance the higher ilvl in 25-M (some 10-M groups never see certain items in months of raids)
4. Number crunch, lower these ridiculous numbers. It's killing people's CPUs.

The longer it takes to get to these 4 eventualities, the more frustrated everyone is, the more jerked around they are, and tons of more stress is placed on guild masters and officers.

Originally Posted by TheBaron87

25m raids already get 20% more loot per raider. (6/25)/(2/10)=1.2 If that's not enough to convince people to stick to 25m raids, then isn't that a sign that they would rather do 10-mans? Wouldn't it be bad to incentivise either type of raid? If people enjoy 25-man then they will make 25m guilds.

And no, there definitely should NOT be an ilvl difference or you're just forcing everyone back into 25m again, when clearly most players would rather do 10.

You know why people would rather do 10m? Because its a lot easier to get 10 people to raid than 25, thats why 25m should get a little extra, otherwise why would anyone want to raid 25m when all the guilds are switching to 10m?

Hopefully the ranking sites will count Korean region separately now.

US/EU havent even gotten the shorter old raid lockouts yet.. and now they give korea ANOTHER thing that a lot of people want?? THANKS BLIZZ, really want to shank all of you.

Originally Posted by Furypie

With 16 fecking bosses yeah i bet you will only spend 2hours per week raiding. I currently spend about 12 hours each week raiding and there's only 6bosses out so far.

The problem would appear then, to be with those with whom you're raiding and possibly yourself.

Erm, I guess the people on my server and I then are WAY different then seemingly everyone in WoW. I remember in WOTLK raiding 25 man the entire xpac, but I never minded the separate 10 man lockout at all. I'm not a high end player ill tell you that, so i'm not going to favor one over the other, because I did both. Now you may think I had too much time on my hands, but aside from ulduar, for the rest of the raids, we would do our normal 25 man raids two nights a week for around 4 hours, which worked for me cause i had a personal life. However on weekends, if there was not much to do or if my friends and I wanted to, we would get together and ask some guildies from our different guilds (none of us were in the same guild, which to be honest i liked lol) and zip through the current 10 man (i'll also specify no, we didn't zip through ulduar or ICC while it was current, but we would do it till we got bored or stuck). I guess what i'm getting at is that at least the people I were around in RL and in game didn't really care about the separate lockouts, feel free to find flaws.

Originally Posted by orderschvank

US/EU havent even gotten the shorter old raid lockouts yet.. and now they give korea ANOTHER thing that a lot of people want?? THANKS BLIZZ, really want to shank all of you.

Did you really have to re-post this..?

One quick point to make that may have problems for raid progression

Seems like blizzards wants complete and utter raid progression to be separate at 10 and 25 levels (i.e. Separate and Equal)

Wrath: All over the place
-10 and 25 raiding
-complete loot table differences (Different Ilevel, itemization, and boss locations)
-Loot allocation in 10's 1:5; 25's 3:25 (normal) 10's 3:10; 25's 4:25 (heroic or hard mode)
-Gear required to complete 10 or 25 different (Could do 10 man at 200 ilevel but couldn't do 25 without 213 etc.)
-Separate Achievements for 10 and 25 player


Those differences were the primary reason people felt obligated to do them both on 10 and 25 for BIS purposes (An example would be Hunter Necks vs. 10 and 25 player with arm pen during that progression period)

Results:
25 progression was king, Gear from 25 man was go into 10's and making it so that only people who could raid 25's could be competitive
10 man progression and 25 were not separate, and supposed to be all linear for Progression. 10 man only guilds really didn't exist nor did they have a true ability to stake their claim as legitimate 10 man only guilds except for the acknowledgement of achievements like Herald of the Titans

Cata: Everything Equal
Shared lock Outs:
Loot the same for all levels ilevel, itemization, boss location
No more 10 or 25 Achievements Just Raid Achievements
loot distribution (Tokens, # of items drop) equalized
Loot Allocation ratio of 1:5 across the board
Supposed equalization for 10-25 in terms of difficultly (I know some fights were both easier and harder depending on if it was fought in 10 and 25, Examples: Warmaster, Warlord, Spine, Maddness, Hagara)
The Goal was to make the only difference be the # of people in the raid

Results:
10 Man only guilds form, 25's ask what's the point?
Because of loot equality EVERYWHERE 10 man progression was seen as the best way for people to stay competitive and to complete content faster and quicker
Led to question; if there is no benefit other than the ability to say "I raid in 25 mans" were running 25's worth the effort for the loot, titles, achievements, and mounts?

This New Pandarian Korean thing

separate 25 and 10 man locks
(assuming) Loot from bosses is the same, itemization is the same, Difference: Ilevel on gear is higher on 25 than 10
Loot Allocation ratio is still 1:5
No 10 or 25 Achievements, just Raid Achievements
Bosses are still tuned the same for the same gear sets (I.e. 10 and 25 need 463 minium ilevel of each member to complete)

Prediction: 25 man will then have more of a reason to be completed so that you actually get THE best gear you can get
Problems that can happen: Loot from 25 being used in 10 progression skewing 10 man guild progression, making it less important and 25's seem to dominate like they did in wrath

Personally: I think this is the way to go, 25's are supposed to be harder and they should be rewarded with better stuff because they are harder. I don't like the wrath model of HAVING TO complete both 10 and 25 in the same week to be competitive. I don't like the wrath model of achievements being separated in 10 or 25, BUT i think that there should be some notice as to whether you did it in 10 or 25 (like in the date earned a simple "Completed with in 25 man") Cuz let's be real if they have separate achievements again that will be encouraging guilds/ people to complete both 10 and 25 man in the same week.
But there can be an issue with the 10 progression guilds that actually want to do 10 mans, because having an edge in the 10 man arena will require you to raid 25's. The Goal should be this, Separate 10 and 25 progression, neither being able to overlap and make raiding easier in either tier. The best way to solve this, is to add The Challenge mode itemization equalizing thing to 10 mans so that the better gear from 25, won't effect or skew 10 man progression. Doing that won't make 10's want to run 25's or 25's run 10's.

Finally! Time to bring things back to how they used to be. 25 deserves more love and this is exactly what the game needs. Thumbs up!

Originally Posted by Mehman

If 25 man needs something more than 10 man to make it worthwhile, it's clearly not worthwhile to begin with and I fail to see why everyone is trying to keep it alive.

Mehman! All over these forums I find myself agreeing with you on everything! Quit making me agree with bronies! I demand you change your opinion on absolutely everything! (exclamation points mean that this should not be taken seriously)

OT: Separate lockouts Good. Higher loot Bad. But if they insist that 25 needs higher loot, make it 2ilvl higher. That way it is clearly "better" than 10man gear, yet not enough better to matter.

Better idea: 10man = 2 loots, 20%. 25man = 8 loots, 32%. That way there is still an incentive to do 25 (much higher loot probability) without making us in 10mans feel totally disenfranchised and forgotten about.

kinda happy it is not for US....be annoying as @$@! to do both 10's and 25's again...im happy with running 10's

Originally Posted by Alenarien

The problem would appear then, to be with those with whom you're raiding and possibly yourself.

That's not true. This is more common and more the majority. Not everyone is in the top tier and clearing content in 1 night. Many are still using 3 or even 4 nights. We dont need more. We already have more and with the launch of HoF next week, it's plenty.

I'm ok with this being only Korea and we all know Korean plays alot more than us.

Originally Posted by Alenarien

The problem would appear then, to be with those with whom you're raiding and possibly yourself.

I'm unsure what you mean by this but ima guess you think i'm bad, how about trying to progress in heroic mode and you should get some more raiding per week.

Higher ilvl in 25 mans? WHELP, time to learn Korean...