Separate 10 and 25 Man Raid Lockout and Reward Changes in Korea

Originally Posted by Vorkreist

You are delusional.
I can name you dozen DOZENS of realms that have 0 yes ZERO friggin 25 man guilds.
I can tell you whats happening on all the servers I have chars. 2-3 25 mans left and those dying as well.
There were hundrends of 25 man guilds at the end of wotlk and now there are 2-3 on a realm at best and thats seems ok to you?
Just because you found a guild on ravencrest which is one of the most crowded alliance realms (you forgot to mention that) doesn't mean the situation is the same anywhere else.

Please keep insulting me further it will really help you make a point here.
I did not say i was fine with it nor did i say there are enough 25 man raids.
I would very much like to see the seperate lockout as i believe this will increase 25 man raiding again.

However in your first post were claiming 25 man are dead which is also not true.
Ofc there are realms that have almost no 25 man but those realms are in general not very active realms to begin with.

And i`m very happy you point out that my server is crowded with alliance yes i did not mention that and no i did not feel the need to do so.
Seeing your comment on there i assume at this point you play horde and all 25 man guilds on your server are horde, so i dont really see the point (if you are horde) why that would be important information.

Just for you information your realm is ranked higher then mine on the same database you referred to earlier.
you are claiming that You cant run 25 man and i`m calling that bs

And seriously pointing back 2 expansions for the sake of telling me how awesome 25 man was back then does not change the fact that you CAN raid 25 man if you put enough effort in it.

According to Wowprogress 1785 25 man and 21393 10 man guilds killed stone guard nhc

Thats only 7.7% 25m and 92.3% 10m guilds

Better loot for 7.7% of all guilds, really?

Let the 25's have better loot but the second they step in to a 10man have the system scale their 25man gear to the 10's version while they are in the raid.

THIS => anyone whant the BEST gear for him, this is world of gear, don't forget it, even if you'll say : i play for playin.
Even more : just don't able pepole using 25stuff in 10men?
This idea just will rez 25-man raids.

Originally Posted by Kanariya

I raid in 10-man exclusively, and I really would have no issue of 25m got better loot like they used to. I'd actually prefer this change to happen in the US/EU regions and start bringing back 25m guilds.

Half your guild will leave you and go to a 25 man guild, you will have to ask your parents to help you fill the raiding spots because 10man recruits will become a rare breed. So hell no to this change, I dont wanna go to a 25 man guild to be able to continue raiding.\

I like how many people posting here think everyone in their guild like the same thing. You will have a shock the minute this goes live and you'll wait at the raid entrance and only you and 2 more people will show for raids, the rest will be searching for 25 man guild.

Originally Posted by Lannen

I would really enjoy having 10 and 25 back to the way they were on US servers. To those saying it "screws 10man guilds" or something along those lines, your argument makes no sense. Essentially you're saying that you want to put in less time, less effort, and reap the same rewards as people organizing and participating in 25man raids. That's absolutely not fair to the people who would rather do 25man...if you don't have the time or the guild to do the hardest content, you don't deserve the best gear, it really is that simple regardless of what anybody tries to claim. And to further expand - if you are only doing 10man raids, why do you NEED 25man level gear? The answer is you don't, so who cares if your 10man drops weaker gear than a 25man.

LMAO, I used to raid in 25 mans all day long. I hate to break it to you, your precious 25 man content is no more skill difficult than it is for 10 mans at the moment. The only reason 25 man raids are more "difficult" is because the 5 carries you generally have, not content difficulty. 10 mans only SEEM easier because it's way easier to get 10 competent players. The content isn't nerfed for 10 mans. LMAO, I love the whole 25 man is harder nonsense argument. Clearly shows a superiority complex used to mask insecurities.

This whole debate is useless, this change will never go live on US/EU servers. It was a retarded system during WOTLK and we'll never go back to it, it means something only for Koreans because they pay for hours played.

Definately remove the 10 and 25 shared lockout, increase in item lvl is questionable since it then makes 25 mans compulsory to remain competitive.

Originally Posted by Ryokosan

I hate to break it to you, your precious 25 man content is no more skill difficult than it is for 10 mans at the moment. The only reason 25 man raids are more "difficult" is because the 5 carries you generally have, not content difficulty. 10 mans only SEEM easier because it's way easier to get 10 competent players. The content isn't nerfed for 10 mans. LMAO, I love the whole 25 man is harder nonsense argument. Clearly shows a superiority complex used to mask insecurities.

I hate to break it to you, but your precious raiding is no more skill difficult than solo content. The only meaningful source of difficulty in raiding comes from coordinating and getting a bunch of people to work together, and that's always more challenging to achieve in 25 than 10 man.

From a former 25m GM and RL's perspective, I can definitely say that 10m is nowhere near as difficult to manage or run as a 25m. Why?

Before I get started, please note that most of my statements and observations are made *in general*. There will obviously be exceptions. However, as I will be discussing *trends*, I believe it's okay to generalize.

First off, you're managing 24 other people in the raid, not 9. 25 people have to learn each new fight, and since people learn at different rates, the slowest guy usually ends up holding everyone else back. Heroic encounters are deliberately tuned to only be possible if no one dies to stupid or puts out substandard numbers (while the tier is current). In a 10m guild with aggressive progression, it's very possible for all 10 raiders to be top-notch players. In a 25m guild, accomplishing that is a lot harder, for obvious reasons. It stands then, that when comparing the #1 10m guild on the server with the #1 25m guild on the same server, the least skilled player in the 10m guild is likely to still be at least better (if not significantly better) than the least skilled player in the 25m guild. And with the least skilled player in the raid bottlenecking progression, well...the effects are predictable. This problem is made even worse on unique, paradigm-shift fights like Yogg-Saron, where the immediate objective isn't necessarily to kill the biggest mob in the room. Stupid people have major problems with these.

Strats are also often simplified in 10m. The numbers may sometimes be more tightly tuned, but if you need one person to carry out a certain fight-specific special task in a 10m (taking portals on Yogg, blowing up stars on Algalon, or going up to the upper level for Beth), you often need three people in 25m. So three people have to learn this, and they also need to learn to coordinate with each other. Only one person (or at least fewer than 25m) need learn this in 10m, and the coordination issue is either greatly reduced or completely nonexistent. Some exceptions do exist, where the numbers are so tightly tuned in the 10m heroic version that the strat becomes very complicated and the required tasks become extremely precise. I'll talk about that later.

Attendance problems are also amplified in a 25m. With 24 other people in the raid, it's easily possible (and not uncommon) for one or more people to have some random shit come up and pull a no-show. Then you have to put in replacements. And wipe while they learn. The replacements are usually a bit dumber than the mains (there's a reason they're not on the main roster), so that can usually take a while. Not to mention the simple fact that each additional person in the raid equals more chance for *someone* to fuck up and kill everyone. In space-dependent fights (like Gruul or Baleroc), this effect is amplified even further.

As someone mentioned earlier, to ensure that your 25m will properly raid on every raid night, it's imperative that you have around 35 active players in the guild. Person-to-person interaction within the guild plays a big role, and with 35+ people bouncing around in the guild (and 10 of them whining about why they're not on the main roster), it's relatively easy for drama to get stirred up and even more easier for that drama to spin out of control. Depending on the personalities of the guild members, a GM or RL can find himself putting out fires quite often. And if that shit happens in the middle of raid, that can really slam the brakes on your progression. Not saying that that can't happen in a 10m guild, but it sure as hell won't happen as often.

Now, it is not uncommon for certain 10m hardmode fights to be more numerically tightly tuned than their 25m counterparts. This could be seen as early as WotLK launch (Sartharion +3D). I think Blizz worked hard (notice the past tense) in the past to try and balance out the inherent disparities in difficulty between the raid sizes described above by increasing the *numerical* difficulty of the 10m heroic versions. They *knew* that 10m guilds would run more smoothly and have better average skill levels (in general) than 25m guilds of similar caliber, so increasing the numerical difficulty was a way to try and counter this inherent disadvantage suffered by 25m. Sometimes it worked, but more often not. So far, it has empirically been the case that top-caliber 10m guild progression still moved faster than the 25m guilds. And with a lot less stress on management too (I can personally attest to that).

I don't know what Korean GM and GL of 10m raids will be thinking, but it really can destroy many guilds. My guild is a barely 10m guild in a dead server in EU, if this change comes to happen I'll loose my raiders, they will join in 2 or 3 guild in the server (We are barely 600 players in the server at peak hours) or migrate to a non "New-Players" server, leaving my server even more dead than it is.

Fingers crossed I don't have to close my guild.

This is retarded. I totally agree with what they did, would be nice if it happens in EU/US as well, but why are they making 25 man loots so strong? Nowadays content is already fast, doing something like that is going to make it even faster than now. You shouldn't have changed the ilvl that you get from 25 man, decreasing only the 10 man would've been perfect. And yea, I hope you'll divide Europe and US progression with the korean&chinese one, at least as long as you don't do it with all the servers.

I hope the two lockouts don't get to US/EU...
But, our 25-man raid will get a upgrade in item level?

Everything what's happened with 25man raiding the last year was intended by blizzard. It's totally hypocritical from their parts to suggest now it's an unexpected sideproduct.

It's not the community that has to come up with a solution ... that's just ridiculous. They wanted more people to experience their raiding content. I quess they succeeded.

It goes without saying that 25man raiding guilds have been under tremendous strain the last year. But now, killing them off totally in favour of generalized 15man raiding, would be just CRUEL.

It would be cruel for both. Finding 5 more for 10 man and release 10 players for 25 man

Originally Posted by zeophor

I hate to break it to you, but your precious raiding is no more skill difficult than solo content. The only meaningful source of difficulty in raiding comes from coordinating and getting a bunch of people to work together, and that's always more challenging to achieve in 25 than 10 man.

The whole coordinating part usually falls to 1 or 2 people in the raid though, the rest just does what they were previously told. 25 man raids are a bitch to organize because of the large roster and all the time that is spend running after people, keeping track when someone is available, plan rotations accordingly and so on.

I don't really get the whole "more epic" argument (besides the currently true more epics dropping ofc). My definition of epic would start somewhere around 1k people for a fight; having 10 or 25 instead is both so far away from epic that I can't be arsed with all the additional work I have to put into this thing to make it work.

25 man raids were perfectly fine at the beginning of cata. More casual guilds and guilds of a few friends went to 10 man, got the same loot but just less and it therefore took them a bit longer to gear up. People raided the size they wanted to, this all went to shit when they decided that 25 raids only drop the equivalent amount of loot as 10 man. Of course people stopped raiding 25 at that point, because there was no benefit to keep up with the 25 people bullshit if there was no reward. Especially on low population servers it became nigh impossible to recruit new players for your raid, and there were a lot of those servers at the end of cata because of the stale content. Most raiding guilds just took 15 of the good players and went into 10 man mode instead of 25, and yes, for the majority of guilds out there it is easy to draw a line sperating good from medicore players in their roster. They tried to fix that with the current raids, but lets face it, after over a year of them systematically destroying 25 people raids the change doesn't do much anymore, because most 25 guilds already disbanded or already had enough people stop playing wow that they easily could downsize to 10 man mode.

The korean approach is bad though, I was there in wrath when to stay at least somehwat competetive you had to run 10 and 25 mode just to make sure you could beat the next encounter, because every bit helps. This also wasn't some imaginary problem, burnout was all over the place and that is what caused blizz to change it to shared lockouts in the first place.

Btw, one thing that would have helped keeping 25 raid guilds togehter is allowing for easier changing of sizes, because we for example often lacked people at some days of the week and couldn't continue at all because we were locked into one mode.

Ugh, don't like this change at all. Just forces us that want to be doing as much as we can do to both 25 man and 10man..

Not funny at all.

Blizzard is steadily losing subs ... that's why they are lowering the bar. If they need to they'll introduce 5man raiding... but don't count on 25man raiding incentives. ;-)

Originally Posted by Stannis

This whole debate is useless, this change will never go live on US/EU servers. It was a retarded system during WOTLK and we'll never go back to it, it means something only for Koreans because they pay for hours played.

no. your post is useless. because it's most likely wrong and you have no clue. a debate is never useless. double lockouts are not that important to me, but 25 should have better loot since it's harder in every aspect.

Originally Posted by Ryokosan

LMAO, I used to raid in 25 mans all day long. I hate to break it to you, your precious 25 man content is no more skill difficult than it is for 10 mans at the moment. The only reason 25 man raids are more "difficult" is because the 5 carries you generally have, not content difficulty. 10 mans only SEEM easier because it's way easier to get 10 competent players. The content isn't nerfed for 10 mans. LMAO, I love the whole 25 man is harder nonsense argument. Clearly shows a superiority complex used to mask insecurities.

Lol, this is classic. This guy is obviously just shouting any dribble he can to mask his insecurities due to his inferiority complex. This just made my day.

Originally Posted by brirrspliff

no. your post is useless. because it's most likely wrong and you have no clue. a debate is never useless. double lockouts are not that important to me, but 25 should have better loot since it's harder in every aspect.

In every aspect? LOL do you mean they buffed the 25mans to be harder so you can get better loot or what? Last time i heard they were the same difficulty only with different number of players and different number of health and stuff (Ofc there can be balance issues, but that doesnt mean that 25man NORMAL should be any harder then 10man NORMAL and vice versa) and hc is the harder one that gives the better gear, as it does...

Ps. dont start telling me about your, but 25man is harder to manage and stuff...