Separate 10 and 25 Man Raid Lockout and Reward Changes in Korea

Awesome change, can't wait for it to be tested in EU / US.
Owait, we did test it in ICC, and it was awesome.

Bring it on.

Do this on ALL realms in all zones! Please!

As someone who plays on China realms I'm excited to test this. Fuck 10/25 man equality. 25 mans are the bread and butter.

Originally Posted by kounamouta

To whoever still even tries to argue whether this should be implemented at EU/US :

WotLK
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 59356
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 84136
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 16103
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 50887
25m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 11567
10m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 48523
25m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 1101
10m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 5664

Cataclysm
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 4832
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 54842
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 3360
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 44652
25m guilds that cleared normal DS : 3417
10m guilds that cleared normal DS : 49342
25m guilds that cleared hc DS : 1191
10m guilds that cleared hc DS : 9059

So yea, except the decline of subscribers in generally due to the fact that WoW is getting older and older, it is easily observed that from a ration of 1:5, between 25m:10m guilds we ended up in a ration of 1:10. And this is going only to get worse, except those top 200 world guilds. Which personally i see them changing sooner than later if this is not implemented also, after having Paragon owning their asses at speed:P

Since the main difference between 10m and 25m guilds lie on the management aspect, which is clearly not an ingame difference, I am afraid that till Blizz realize that they have to balance this offline effort with an online reward, the numbers of 25m guilds will keep declining till they die.

How do you count the 25m guilds that cleared the content in 25m and 10m raids in LK?
I think that ratio will be worse...

Originally Posted by brirrspliff

no. your post is useless. because it's most likely wrong and you have no clue. a debate is never useless. double lockouts are not that important to me, but 25 should have better loot since it's harder in every aspect.

Going back to different lockouts and better gear on 25 men would go against everything that Blizzard did in the last 2 years, i.e. getting more people into raiding, starting with the freedom of choosing your preferred size.
Won't go live in US/EU. Whoever thinks otherwise is just deluding himself.

Originally Posted by Freia

Your post makes no sense. You can't do the same fight on normal and heroic difficulty in the same lockout. And what you are describing isn't TBC at all.

Aye sorry i forgot that if you do Normal you will get locked for hrc! Well yeah its not the same like TBC was, but it will be good for hardcore Hrc Raiders and Casualized guild doing normal.

Originally Posted by Stannis

Going back to different lockouts and better gear on 25 men would go against everything that Blizzard did in the last 2 years, i.e. getting more people into raiding, starting with the freedom of choosing your preferred size.

How?

Is it preventing people from doing 10 man raids? Nope. Unlike current system, where you can do ether 10 or 25 man, not both.
Is it preventing people from doing LFR? Nope.
Is 25 gear significantly better than 10, like it was in WoTLK, forcing 10 man guilds to do 25 man raids for gear? Nope, ilevel difference is tiny.
Are achievements for 10 and 25 man different, forcing 10 man guilds to do 25 man raids to get achievements? Nope.

Originally Posted by Binki

How?

Is it preventing people from doing 10 man raids? Nope. Unlike current system, where you can do ether 10 or 25 man, not both.
Is it preventing people from doing LFR? Nope.
Is 25 gear significantly better than 10, like it was in WoTLK, forcing 10 man guilds to do 25 man raids for gear? Nope, ilevel difference is tiny.
Are achievements for 10 and 25 man different, forcing 10 man guilds to do 25 man raids to get achievements? Nope.

Even a tiny difference would result in drastic shifts in people's behaviour. And if you have a chance to get double (and better) gear, you are effectively forced to run both sizes. Would be a huge step behind.

Originally Posted by Stannis

Even a tiny difference would result in drastic shifts in people's behaviour. And if you have a chance to get double (and better) gear, you are effectively forced to run both sizes. Would be a huge step behind.

You are so right here. This does force you, because if you dont then you cant obtain the best gear avalible, and get zero respect.. I have ZERO issues with 25 man raids. I just prefer the smaller raid style and because i prefer one over the other i should get less quality gear? Thats Crap. If they wanted to seperate the lockouts and keep the gear the way it is i would be fine. not sure why they would do this anyway..

Originally Posted by Stannis

Even a tiny difference would result in drastic shifts in people's behaviour. And if you have a chance to get double (and better) gear, you are effectively forced to run both sizes. Would be a huge step behind.

And here I thought killing the 25-man system in Cata was a huge step behind.... Good you explained it to me........

The irony of this situation makes me feel all fuzzy inside.

Originally Posted by Stannis

Even a tiny difference would result in drastic shifts in people's behaviour. And if you have a chance to get double (and better) gear, you are effectively forced to run both sizes. Would be a huge step behind.

The larger the difference the better then!
It was about time too!!!

Originally Posted by Unus

You are so right here. This does force you, because if you dont then you cant obtain the best gear avalible, and get zero respect.. I have ZERO issues with 25 man raids. I just prefer the smaller raid style and because i prefer one over the other i should get less quality gear? Thats Crap. If they wanted to seperate the lockouts and keep the gear the way it is i would be fine. not sure why they would do this anyway..

I think this all in all has nothing to do with it, even raiding 10/25 man in WoTLK(pre lockout change) I was no where close to the top of the "most geared" list. I do know that when I raided with my guild Tues/Weds/Thurs we were a 10 man guild and on Friday night a few of us FRIENDS(yes some people are more than characters to me) would get together an dabble in the fun of hosting a GDKP run, or just a free roll pug run if we didn't clear it, it didn't matter it was for fun anyways. I like to play one character, and I would have to level 2 of the same class, gear them the same just to be able to have this social aspect back.

iLVL has became some sort of prestige in this game, which is in itself a joke, have a slight difference wouldn't matter, 476 or 489, it's on the same grounds as LFR and Normal. I don't think enough of the player base has the min/maxing mindset to raid 25mans just for 3ilvl versus doing it just for fun or meeting people. I think PUG 25mans would be more of the reputation builder in which you can go in, perform, and people can say Oh Sh** that guy is a lot better than I troll him in trade for.

One thing you guys fail to comprehend is 25 man is more difficult than 10 man thus deserves some incentive i.e better loot.

/thread

Originally Posted by kounamouta

To whoever still even tries to argue whether this should be implemented at EU/US :

WotLK
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 59356
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 84136
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 16103
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 50887
25m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 11567
10m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 48523
25m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 1101
10m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 5664

Cataclysm
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 4832
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 54842
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 3360
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 44652
25m guilds that cleared normal DS : 3417
10m guilds that cleared normal DS : 49342
25m guilds that cleared hc DS : 1191
10m guilds that cleared hc DS : 9059

So yea, except the decline of subscribers in generally due to the fact that WoW is getting older and older, it is easily observed that from a ration of 1:5, between 25m:10m guilds we ended up in a ration of 1:10. And this is going only to get worse, except those top 200 world guilds. Which personally i see them changing sooner than later if this is not implemented also, after having Paragon owning their asses at speed:P

Since the main difference between 10m and 25m guilds lie on the management aspect, which is clearly not an ingame difference, I am afraid that till Blizz realize that they have to balance this offline effort with an online reward, the numbers of 25m guilds will keep declining till they die.

That Wotlk statistic can't be correct at all. How can you even make those numbers? Most guilds in wotlk was doing 25-man as mainraids and 10-man on offdays.

Secondly in general. All this 25-man vs 10-man is just ridiculous. I've done them all. 40-man in vanilla and 10-man now. There is no "harder" way to raid. 40-man wasn't 30 times harder than 10-man is. It's all about the guild you play in.

Tho, some bosses are harder in 25-man and some in 10-man, but mostly it evens out in the end. But saying that 25-man guilds put in more time and effort is just silly as hell.

The only thing easier about 10-man is the fact that you don't have to deal with as many people. But you can have just as much people trouble in a 10-man guild, the chance of getting those bad apples is just less.

Originally Posted by Mikaelo

They're doing this in Korea because the business model is different there. A great many people spend an evening playing on a shared machine in an internet-cafe type place, paying for a block of time. As it stands, they get all their raiding done in one evening and don't come back and pay again until the next week. Completely different playtime pattern for raiders over there.

No we don't, we pay monthly just like everyone else. China pays by time, not Korea.

---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 09:12 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Akraen

Have you ever set foot in a 25m raid? Have you ever been the guild master of a 25m guild? Have you done so during Cataclysm? If so, how was your progression? How's your recruitment? Are your officers happy? How's burnout?

I firmly believe people should do whatever they want, but MMO's exist with incentives to expend effort through spurts of time that completely lack enjoyment, because the type of personality that creates a raider is for the payoff. You want to progress as a team and individually, so that's why you endure short-term frustration. Guild Masters are a different breed of masochists, and having been one since 2006, I can say for sure... 25m is infinitely harder to organize no matter how amiable your roster is. To argue that is blind ignorance, so I want to know your resume because you're either the perfect troll, or you're preaching from ignorance.

Any real arguments?

Because your post lacks any, it's all just rhetoric bullshit that requires you to prove nothing. I'm Santa Claus, btw.

---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 09:15 PM ----------

Originally Posted by saintlyn

easy fix - exclude Korea from WF race, WoL, WoWProgress and just pretend they don't exist

Exclude US from WF Race. You get 1-2 days lead on everyone else for patches.

But I bet you'll bullshit your way around that, because it really sucks when the shoe is on the other foot.

---------- Post added 2012-10-27 at 09:21 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Stannis

Even a tiny difference would result in drastic shifts in people's behaviour. And if you have a chance to get double (and better) gear, you are effectively forced to run both sizes. Would be a huge step behind.

Yep, because once that unlock system changes, a Blizzard employee comes over to your house and holds a gun to your head until you run both.

I really love this generation of privileged white children who don't understand the concept of half the words they use. Starving, Poor and Forced among them. Thinking that better loot in a video game is forced.

This can never happen it'll kill raiding more then anything.

Originally Posted by Pilek01

Maybe you look at this in the wrong position. In Wotlk you were forced to play 25 man if you wanted the best rewards. In Cata you could choose what you want to raid. maybe people prefered 10 man over 25 man cuz they like it more and since revards are the same they feel not forced into 25.
Like myself, i prefer 10 man but if 25 gets better loot i will have to go 25 man even tho i dont like it.

People like this don't understand that NO ONE is forcing them to move onto 25mans if 10man is working fine for them. If you want better loot then you have to put more time into it. Like it or not it requires a lot more time for 25man raiding overall than it does 10man. Whether its having to find replacements etc.

Originally Posted by Reforge

One thing you guys fail to comprehend is 25 man is more difficult than 10 man thus deserves some incentive i.e better loot.

/thread

Where's your proof except for "I'm playing 25 and I want to feel superior?"

I personally am all for different lockouts, but same loot in 10 man and 25 man. Maybe give the 25 guys some different color, but not a better iLevel.

Originally Posted by Binki

Is 25 gear significantly better than 10, like it was in WoTLK, forcing 10 man guilds to do 25 man raids for gear? Nope, ilevel difference is tiny.

You have no clue.

PLENTY of people out there (myself included), will say fuck the current guild (if it is 10man) and join a 25man guild as soon as they pump up the ilvl, and make new friends at the new guild.

That tiny ilvl will make the ultimate difference on what people choose to raid.

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 12:17 AM ----------

Originally Posted by arktos828

People like this don't understand that NO ONE is forcing them to move onto 25mans if 10man is working fine for them. If you want better loot then you have to put more time into it. Like it or not it requires a lot more time for 25man raiding overall than it does 10man. Whether its having to find replacements etc.

That is a pure logistical issue, not raid encounter/difficulty issue.

Originally Posted by Grym

You have no clue.

PLENTY of people out there (myself included), will say fuck the current guild (if it is 10man) and join a 25man guild as soon as they pump up the ilvl, and make new friends at the new guild.

That tiny ilvl will make the ultimate difference on what people choose to raid.

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 12:17 AM ----------



That is a pure logistical issue, not raid encounter/difficulty issue.

The good thing is that you will keep raiding and you will not quit like so many other 10 man raiders that are "threatening" blizzard that they will

There are many people that raid for loot in this game, and it is not bad.

Do what it is more fun to you, and if loot is the issue, raid 10 now (as you do) and 25 tomorrow (if only ). No big deal eh?