Separate 10 and 25 Man Raid Lockout and Reward Changes in Korea

The last people that comment do u actually realize this is to Korea only! actually blizzard are spiting in the face of all EU and US players by this crap ... it wasnt enough that koreans alrdy had 2 resets per week on all the raids but now they gonna have seperate lockouts on 10m and 25m and on top of that they pay so little to play this game compared to us .... WTF is this rly ....

Originally Posted by newpower

The last people that comment do u actually realize this is to Korea only! actually blizzard are spiting in the face of all EU and US players by this crap ... it wasnt enough that koreans alrdy had 2 resets per week on all the raids but now they gonna have seperate lockouts on 10m and 25m and on top of that they pay so little to play this game compared to us .... WTF is this rly ....

Hope it gets to EU as well, otherwise... well I don't know, but I will be greatl pissed off

Originally Posted by Mastermind999

Hope it gets to EU as well, otherwise... well I don't know, but I will be greatl pissed off

it wont go to EU and US mate koreans having 2 resets per week on their raids since 1 year alrdy ...(also that was the reason they beated rest guilds on world 1st race in cata) tnx to blizz ....

Originally Posted by Detraxi

Im ok with everything but the iLVL difference. Just because im dealing with 15 less people in managing my guilds raids does not mean we deserve weaker loot. That was a WOTLK mistake. Really hoping this gets altered before US/EU market.

Yes it does. You have less than half the people to manage and organize. You also have easier bosses, as explained by nearly ever person who has tested 10 and 25 content for MoP. Why should you get as much when it's easier, and still be able to steal realm firsts from 25 man guilds?

Answer: You shouldn't.

FINALLY!!! Blizzard actually got some sense??? If they change this one for europe aswell I might come back playing again!!!

So Blizzard is trying to revive 25 mans, but if this becomes effective in the US/EU, it will just kill 10 mans instead. That's not really the solution we were all looking for, is it?

Originally Posted by tehdef

Yes it does. You have less than half the people to manage and organize. You also have easier bosses, as explained by nearly ever person who has tested 10 and 25 content for MoP. Why should you get as much when it's easier, and still be able to steal realm firsts from 25 man guilds?

Answer: You shouldn't.

Both have pros and cons, and bosses isnt easier by default on 10s than 25s. Doing 25s instead of 10s should be because you want to, not only because one version rewards you better loot. You already get a lot more loot in 25-mans, as if that isnt enough. But sure, I guess some people allways has to be the "special snowflakes" at everything.

Originally Posted by jayinjersey

Well at least this time it isn't a whole level better...only 8 ilevels as opposed to 13 so technically 10H would still be better than 25M reg.

Also ilevels are twice higher than they were in WoTLK, so that's like 8 vs 26 by MoP gear levels or 4 vs 13 by WoTLK levels. Very small difference between 10 and 25 man loot.

Originally Posted by deathstar878

25 man is tuned so tightly one death means the raid will not meet enrage. Additionally, it is difficult to spot things on the floor compared to 10 man many people are clumped in the same area (melee). What this means is you need to be more aware and stress more to spot things that will kill you. Of course if you do die you fuck the rest of the raid whereas in 10 man this is also true but it is easier to stay alive since you can see stuff on the floor.

And of course this means 10 man is easier than 25 man. We haven't even talked about logistics

I'm going to use Stoneguard as an example about the problems with this tier.
10man without Jasper is a complete joke. We 1 shot it last week when we were missing Jasper. This week it was pretty easy missing Jade but about the same as 25man. The first week though with Jade, Jasper and Cobalt was MUCH harder than 25man. Week 1 10man is much harder, week 2 10man is much easier, weeks 3 and 4 it's about the same. The first two are bad, the second two are good. This is why this change happened to Korea and will happen to the NA/EU markets. It's fucking stupid that it took them this long because it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to actually balance the fights without massively limiting their creativity. We said this shit for two fucking years. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about something that doesn't really matter now, has no true answer and won't matter when Blizz makes this change.
You know we could sit and argue here all day but you know what? I don't actually care anymore because Blizz is finally fixing this stupid argument to no longer be relevant. Thank you Blizzard.

Originally Posted by Arwald

This wont happen on the EU/US server for a bunch of reasons:

a) 10-Raids are preferred by blizz in terms of role-distribution, because they mirror 5-mans (20% tanks 20% healer 60% dds)
b) Blizzard has hard data that a lot of people like 10Raids. Not everyone doing 10s might be a huge fan, but data is data.
c) They realllyyyy hate taking stuff away from people. This change would take away BiS-Gear from the strict10 folks.
d) NoLifer - with this change, the mop dailys and other stuff you can do, people would feel forced to play to much.

Code structer is already in, because it's avail in Korea. That means it will only take a flip of a switch to make it live in US/EU. Best part is...NONE OF THIS IS MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE OR REQUIRED. Don't want to run both 10's and 25's? Cool dont. Just want to rn 10's because that's what your guild can do? GREAT! I hope you enjoy it. Mad because bigger guilds with harder fights are getting better rewards? Shame on you, join a 25 man if you're that mad. You already get to steal realm firsts with your little crappy 10 man guilds from 25's who put in more hour effort than you do. This is a good step for 25 man raiding, which is the PINNACLE OF WHAT WOW OFFERS in that they are the hands down best raiding and pve experience any game on the market has to offer.

Moral of the story. Get over it. It's not mandatory. Cry more.

Bring back separate lockouts to US/EU, I say.

Please bring this back to the US. Wanting raids to feel like raids again.

Originally Posted by Selkinor

So Blizzard is trying to revive 25 mans, but if this becomes effective in the US/EU, it will just kill 10 mans instead. That's not really the solution we were all looking for, is it?

Kill it? I would say more people would actually play it! I never played so much 10-mans EVER compared to the time in Wrath. So I really don´t see the problem your trying to explain.

Originally Posted by tehdef

Moral of the story. Get over it. It's not mandatory. Cry more.

Ironic, considering that this change will not be coming to EU/US servers any time soon. Indeed, cry more.

Originally Posted by Trollfaced

Both have pros and cons, and bosses isnt easier by default on 10s than 25s. Doing 25s instead of 10s should be because you want to, not only because one version rewards you better loot. You already get a lot more loot in 25-mans, as if that isnt enough. But sure, I guess some people allways has to be the "special snowflakes" at everything.

Not enough that a 10 man can snipe a realm first achievement? Not enough that you get more loot? 3 pieces for a tier boss versus 9, iirc. 30-ish percent versus 30ish percent. What is wrong? Just because the NUMBER of pieces that drop is higher, it's about the equation of pieces to people, and it's right. You're just mad, I can tell. This is a good change, and I really need you to suck it up. It's not mandatory, and 25 mans need to be rewarded for having to have more coordination and cooperation than 10 mans do.

Awesome, now some people might actually do 25m's again and realize that they're not as easy as they thought.

Originally Posted by Jazirian

Ironic, considering that this change will not be coming to EU/US servers any time soon. Indeed, cry more.

Lets bet. I guarantee I'll win. They have specifically said in the past that they want to make 25's more lucrative.

Reddit: 9/11/12 -

What are Blizzards views on 25-man raiding? - Can anything be done to save 25-man raiding or make it more appealing? (Does Blizzard have something up their sleeves?) - What has caused 25-man raids to fade away?

"In short, we're not satisfied with the current status of 25-player raids. There are clear logistical challenges to sustaining a 25-player raiding group. It's inherently 2.5 times as much churn, and thus 2.5 times as much recruitment needed. In terms of actual encounter difficulty, while we haven't always succeeded, we feel that we can deliver on a comparable experience between the two modes: 10-player raiding often involves greater personal responsibility, while 25-player raiding is more complex on a macro level (more moving pieces). Even perfect tuning doesn't compensate for the logistical difficulties, though.

Our hope and intent when introducing the parallel 10/25 structure in Cataclysm was that people would be free to pick the raid size that they prefer, but I'll admit that in light of the organizational challenges of maintaining a 25-player roster, we may need a slightly larger incentive to make that choice a truly free and fair one. When you're the guild leader of a 25-player raid group, and you realize that you only have 21 people regularly showing up, it's much easier to just forge ahead in 10-player mode than it is to go through a fresh recruitment cycle to bolster your ranks. And if Mechanar taught us anything, it's that players will always take the path of least resistance when the rewards are equal. (Note that this doesn't mean that it's necessarily the most fun path or what players would choose in the absence of any outside forces pulling them one way or another.)

A small step we've taken to that end has been to increase the amount of loot dropped in 25-player Normal mode in 5.0 to 6 pieces per boss, matching the Heroic loot rate as it has stood in Cataclysm. That's something. But it's not a true solution to the problem. It's something we continue to discuss on a regular basis."

Additionally here is more on that topic.

It`s undeniable that 25-man raiding is dying. How/will Blizzard save it?
"We want to make sure the loot you get is commensurate with the logistical effort involved. That doesn't meant the loot has to be higher item level, but it could mean you earn loot faster.

We're not trying to kill 25 raiding. I totally agree we haven't yet done a good job of saving it."

Yeah. Get pooped on bro.

To all those people that complained that Blizz wasn't forcing people to do 25 man raids if they didn't want to, I hate you.

srsly i play 25m, neither do i want to raid 10m to gather my gear nor do i feel 8 ilvl diff justified... 2-5 ilvs would do it as well! even 1 ilvl would be nice enough^^

Originally Posted by tehdef

Lets bet. I guarantee I'll win. They have specifically said in the past that they want to make 25's more lucrative.

Reddit: 9/11/12 - "In short, we're not satisfied with the current status of 25-player raids. There are clear logistical challenges to sustaining a 25-player raiding group. It's inherently 2.5 times as much churn, and thus 2.5 times as much recruitment needed. In terms of actual encounter difficulty, while we haven't always succeeded, we feel that we can deliver on a comparable experience between the two modes: 10-player raiding often involves greater personal responsibility, while 25-player raiding is more complex on a macro level (more moving pieces). Even perfect tuning doesn't compensate for the logistical difficulties, though."

Yeah. Get pooped on bro.

Nothing in that quote has anything to do with making 25's more lucrative.