Separate 10 and 25 Man Raid Lockout and Reward Changes in Korea

Originally Posted by Taftvalue

Yeah sure, raiding 10 men is not even half the effort, so it's absolutely fine that you get rewarded the same loot for not even half the effort. You sir or madam have a nice logic.

It's the same amount of effort... Or can your brain not get around that.

The difference is one requires 10 peoples effort and the other requires 25 each one still requires the same amount of effort from each individual thus been the same regardless of size.

I'm not defending nor siding with 10man or 25man but i do feel that whole "OH MY RAIDS HARDER THEN YOURS" is utter bullshit, The hardest part about 25man is finding 24 other non retards to play with.

Originally Posted by exrel

In every aspect? LOL do you mean they buffed the 25mans to be harder so you can get better loot or what? Last time i heard they were the same difficulty only with different number of players and different number of health and stuff (Ofc there can be balance issues, but that doesnt mean that 25man NORMAL should be any harder then 10man NORMAL and vice versa) and hc is the harder one that gives the better gear, as it does...

Ps. dont start telling me about your, but 25man is harder to manage and stuff...

The 25 man in Korea will be made harder. They will increase the difficult just like it was in WotLK. I hope this change makes it to Europe.

Originally Posted by Zemin

It's the same amount of effort... Or can your brain not get around that.

The difference is one requires 10 peoples effort and the other requires 25 each one still requires the same amount of effort from each individual thus been the same regardless of size.

I'm not defending nor siding with 10man or 25man but i do feel that whole "OH MY RAIDS HARDER THEN YOURS" is utter bullshit, The hardest part about 25man is finding 24 other non retards to play with.

Many people including the top guilds like Paragon admit that 10 are easier than 25 man so you are the one not getting it. The change to loot will be warranted by the EVEN bigger difficult that the new 25 man will have. This is the way to go. 10 is just a joke compared to the 25 man of the past.

Originally Posted by Cybran

The 25 man in Korea will be made harder. They will increase the difficult just like it was in WotLK. I hope this change makes it to Europe.

At which point some guild will then go walk into 10 man in the high ilvl and face-roll it there.

Originally Posted by Zemin

At which point some guild will then go walk into 10 man in the high ilvl and face-roll it there.

So what? 10s were the LFR of WotLK. It's time they return where they belong.

Originally Posted by Cybran

The 25 man in Korea will be made harder. They will increase the difficult just like it was in WotLK. I hope this change makes it to Europe.

Didnt see anything about this in the blue post. Link your source?

Originally Posted by exrel

Didnt see anything about this in the blue post. Link your source?

It was mentioned a few times in the other thread.

to the people that claim that 25 man should be more rewarding due to it's difficulty:

check wowprogress' and WoL percentage statistics regarding 10v25 man progression since cata and ull see it's the other way around, no extra effort no nothing so there should be no extra rewards aswell.

Originally Posted by Tirosh

to the people that claim that 25 man should be more rewarding due to it's difficulty:

check wowprogress' and WoL percentage statistics regarding 10v25 man progression since cata and ull see it's the other way around, no extra effort no nothing so there should be no extra rewards aswell.

There arent really any sub par 25 man guilds anymore since they all folded and made ten mans, so of course the percentage will be higher for 25m kills.

Originally Posted by Gorino

There arent really any sub par 25 man guilds anymore since they all folded and made ten mans, so of course the percentage will be higher for 25m kills.

the reason of that primarily being that it is easier to manage and recruit for 10 mans not because of the difficulty and also blood legion, apex,method and so on say hello.

P.S.: whether guilds switch from 25 to ten has nothing to do with those logs and records, im talking about percentages not actual numbers there are about 18 times more active 10 man guilds as opposed to 25's

Well Blizzard ends the debate about the difficulty of 10man versus 25man. You want the most difficult content you have to do 25man. Guess everyone arguing over which is the top progression have their question answered by Blizzard themselves.

loving this because when cata announced shared lockouts the shitstorm hit the fan BIG TIME and i see some names who are bitching about bringing back 25 mans who at the time bitched bout shared lockouts

Also WHO THE FUCK FORCES YOU TO DO ANYTHING do you hear the WF guilds bitching about this? no so your not competitive go suck a lemon

and finally who cares what the koreans do everyone knows they will be MORE hardcore than anyone in the west

so in general quit your bitching get over it and HA

Originally Posted by Grap

back to the roots
i hope this change will hit the live servers here in europe & US

They are bringing back 40m raids?!!!! /sarcasm

To whoever still even tries to argue whether this should be implemented at EU/US :

WotLK
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 59356
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 84136
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 16103
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 50887
25m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 11567
10m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 48523
25m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 1101
10m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 5664

Cataclysm
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 4832
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 54842
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 3360
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 44652
25m guilds that cleared normal DS : 3417
10m guilds that cleared normal DS : 49342
25m guilds that cleared hc DS : 1191
10m guilds that cleared hc DS : 9059

So yea, except the decline of subscribers in generally due to the fact that WoW is getting older and older, it is easily observed that from a ration of 1:5, between 25m:10m guilds we ended up in a ration of 1:10. And this is going only to get worse, except those top 200 world guilds. Which personally i see them changing sooner than later if this is not implemented also, after having Paragon owning their asses at speed:P

Since the main difference between 10m and 25m guilds lie on the management aspect, which is clearly not an ingame difference, I am afraid that till Blizz realize that they have to balance this offline effort with an online reward, the numbers of 25m guilds will keep declining till they die.

Originally Posted by kounamouta

To whoever still even tries to argue whether this should be implemented at EU/US :

WotLK
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 59356
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 84136
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 16103
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 50887
25m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 11567
10m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 48523
25m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 1101
10m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 5664

Cataclysm
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 4832
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 54842
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 3360
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 44652
25m guilds that cleared normal DS : 3417
10m guilds that cleared normal DS : 49342
25m guilds that cleared hc DS : 1191
10m guilds that cleared hc DS : 9059

So yea, except the decline of subscribers in generally due to the fact that WoW is getting older and older, it is easily observed that from a ration of 1:5, between 25m:10m guilds we ended up in a ration of 1:10. And this is going only to get worse, except those top 200 world guilds. Which personally i see them changing sooner than later if this is not implemented also, after having Paragon owning their asses at speed:P

Since the main difference between 10m and 25m guilds lie on the management aspect, which is clearly not an ingame difference, I am afraid that till Blizz realize that they have to balance this offline effort with an online reward, the numbers of 25m guilds will keep declining till they die.

Maybe you look at this in the wrong position. In Wotlk you were forced to play 25 man if you wanted the best rewards. In Cata you could choose what you want to raid. maybe people prefered 10 man over 25 man cuz they like it more and since revards are the same they feel not forced into 25.
Like myself, i prefer 10 man but if 25 gets better loot i will have to go 25 man even tho i dont like it.

Good that they change it back and not penalize 10 mans too much. Wrath had a rather large 10 penalty putting it's heroic version of gear equivalent to the normal 25 gear. 25s were always for more serious guilds, and they should remain this way. 10s were for smaller groups of friends that didn't want to be bothered with managing a large guild. There are sacrifices to be made.

If people are concerned they are going to have to run several lockouts per week, that's your call if you do. If you are in a heavy progression guild, you might need to. If you are a casual raider that raids 25s, then that's all you'll really need. The problem with the majority of raiders is that they suffer from OCD and make themselves feel obligated to run everything down to LFR.

I don't do scheduled raiding anymore, and here's my guide to burning out: Join a server first/world 100 guild. Allocate 6 days a week, be on call the remaining day. Have 1 main raiding character and 1 alt (preferably the same role as your main), this way you can run 4 separate lockouts in 10 and 25 per week to gear up everyone's mains quickly. Unlock Hardmodes, rinse and repeat. When new content is released, do it all again.

My point? If you're this concerned you're obligated, you're going to find the cancel button eventually or your family will schedule an intervention if they care. I play WoW today my way, and that's just leveling characters, enjoying PvP, trying to become proficient with all the different classes in the game. LFR is the extent of my hardcore today, and I don't care.

Originally Posted by kounamouta

To whoever still even tries to argue whether this should be implemented at EU/US :

WotLK
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 59356
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at ICC : 84136
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 16103
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at ICC : 50887
25m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 11567
10m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 48523
25m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 1101
10m guilds that cleared hc ICC : 5664

Cataclysm
25m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 4832
10m guilds that killed 1 normal boss at DS : 54842
25m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 3360
10m guilds that killed 1 hc boss at DS : 44652
25m guilds that cleared normal DS : 3417
10m guilds that cleared normal DS : 49342
25m guilds that cleared hc DS : 1191
10m guilds that cleared hc DS : 9059

All these numbers are useless without their prospective pool sizes.

25m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 11567
if this was out of a million it is a VERY small percentage, out of 15k...a huge percentage


Data without context is bad data.

Originally Posted by jayinjersey

All these numbers are useless without their prospective pool sizes.

25m guilds that cleared normal ICC : 11567
if this was out of a million it is a VERY small percentage, out of 15k...a huge percentage


Data without context is bad data.

On top of that a crap load of 25man guilds are among the 10man guid kills. So the total amount of guilds are not in any way separated but overlap by alot since 25man guilds progressed in both lockouts which makes a compairsion with the cataclysm system skewed.

Well if this come to EU/US i will prefer a mix of Vanilla/TBC-size style raid plan. For Example:

LFR: MSV,SpringTerrase,HoF 25
Normal: MSV 10 man, HoF 25 man, Spring Terrace 25 man
Heroic: MSV 10 man, HoF 25 man, Spring Terrace 25 man

Future Raids:
5.2: LFR: XXX 25 man
Normal: XXX 25 man(or even 20/15)
Heroic: XXX 25 man(or even 20/15)
5.3: LFR: YYY 25 man
Normal: YYY 10 man(or even 15/20/25)
Heroic: YYY 10man(or even 15/20/25)
5.4(if they do): LFR ZZZ 25 man
Normal: ZZZ 20 man(or even 10/15/25)
Heroic: ZZZ 20 man(or even 10/15/25)

By that way you will have to do 2 times each week for each raid. For example: Mogu Shan Vaults: 25 FLR, 10 Normal/10 heroic(you will have to do one of them, but you can mix normal with heroic modes in one lockout, for example first 3 bosses on heroic and the last one on normal).
If they keep the way raids are now and they remove the shared lockout you will have to do 5 times each raid: for Example: Mogu Shan Vaults: 25 LFR, 10 Normal/10 Heroic, 25 Normal/25 Heroic.
I know some people will be "forced" to do 25 mans but what's better? do the raid 2 times or 3?
What do you think?

They should do this to every region, not just specific regions... seriously.

Originally Posted by Kornstyle

Well if this come to EU/US i will prefer a TBC-size style raid plan. For Example:

LFR: MSV,SpringTerrase,HoF 25
Normal: MSV 10 man, HoF 25 man, Spring Terrace 25 man
Heroic: MSV 10 man, HoF 25 man, Spring Terrace 25 man

Future Raids:
5.2: LFR: XXX 25 man
Normal: XXX 25 man(or even 20/15)
Heroic: XXX 25 man(or even 20/15)
5.3: LFR: YYY 25 man
Normal: YYY 10 man(or even 15/20/25)
Heroic: YYY 10man(or even 15/20/25)
5.4(if they do): LFR 25 man
Normal: 20 man(or even 10/15/25)
Heroic: 20 man(or even 10/15/25)

By that way you will have to do 3 times each week for each raid. For example: Mogu Shan Vaults: 25 FLR, 10 Normal, 10 heroic.
If they keep the way raids are now and they remove the shared lockout you will have to do 5 times each raid: for Example: Mogu Shan Vaults: 25 LFR, 10 Normal, 10 Heroic, 25 Normal, 25 Heroic.
I know some people will be "forced" to do 25 mans but what's better? do the raid 3 times or 5?
What do you think?

Your post makes no sense. You can't do the same fight on normal and heroic difficulty in the same lockout. And what you are describing isn't TBC at all.