Separate 10 and 25 Man Raid Lockout and Reward Changes in Korea

Originally Posted by XingoJenkins

Tired of this 10/25 fanboy fighting...

Hoping for a unique model that suits fine for everyone

15-man as the only raid format would probably be as close as we can get. They should have done that for MoP.

OMG this will destroy 10 man raiding guidls.....

Wouldn't mind having this back in the US. Give me a REASON to do 25s again.

Let the 25's have better loot but the second they step in to a 10man have the system scale their 25man gear to the 10's version while they are in the raid.

Originally Posted by Farabee

Wouldn't mind having this back in the US. Give me a REASON to do 25s again.

Maybe do 25s because you actually enjoy the format?

Originally Posted by XingoJenkins

Tired of this 10/25 fanboy fighting...

Hoping for a unique model that suits fine for everyone

The current model is what you're looking for.

Oh look, they're going back to the wrath raiding style again. This is going to get peoples really P...ed off and screw hardcore 10 man raiding guilds because if they want the best gear they're gonna have to go do 25 man by default.

Don't get me wrong I love 25 man raids but peoples and guilds prefer 10 mans over 25 because it's more drama free and less problematic to get a strat going.

If this went global we'd see whining and bitching about how people are 'forced' to raid both versions. Look at the constant bitching about dailies. Many of you have no backbone and will always refuse to own your choices, blaming someone else for 'forcing' you to raid both lockouts.

Not to mention (but I will...) the "people in 25s gear are getting the first kills in 10s and that distorts things..." stuff.

Originally Posted by handledofstormreaverus

Lol @ your distorted view of raid difficulty. Just off the top of my head I can name two Cata bosses that were significantly more difficult on 10 man. Halfus & Deathwing. Both were statistically killed more on 25 than 10, pre nerf. But so what.

That's not even the point. 10 mans, when tuned properly, are just as difficult as 25s. It all comes down to tuning. here's why.

-1 battle rez, vs. 3 in 25 man
-Higher chance of missing buffs (although less likely to be an issue these days)
-Losing one player is 10% of your raid in 10 man, and is often unrecoverable if they cannot be revived. This is NOT an issue in 25 man, and you often see progression kills done with 1-2 players down. 1 player in 25 is only 2.5% of your raid, and as long as its not the tank, you're probably okay. An acceptable loss if you will.
-If you're really struggling more in 25 than 10, it's often due to unnoticed slacking on the part of one or more of your other players. If you're carrying 2-3 players in 25 man, you can often pull through with excellent other players picking up the slack. That's nearly impossible for 10 man -- everyone has to pull their weight.

Apples to apples (all players in the raid pulling their weight), then it all comes down to tuning.

Source: Many years and countless hours (all of WotLK & Cata) as a top 20 US tank in 25 man. Hohn @ Spirestone-US

I get that in cata some encounters were harder in 10 men, but does this apply to Mogu shan vaults? And 25 men does take more effort to organize, and really more loot is not a reward, because obviously there are more players . If they don't do something 25 men will die out, it's not enough reward for the effort, simple as that. But the really awesome part are the separated lockouts, I used to love doing 10 men runs with my friends in Wotlk, after I was done with the 25 men main raid 8). Oh an there's also the fun factor, 10 men feels horribly boring and not epic at all compared to 25 men.

I love the 25 man raiders arguing that that they are somehow entitled to better loot that a 10 man raider. Logistically a 25 man may be harder to put together. The raid content is the same. Personally, I don't like like carrying 3-5 deadbeats every raid. And that what you get in all but the top end 25 man guilds. Why don't I raid in a top end guild then? It's called a full time job and other hobbies. Hope the changes stays in Korea.

I loved the seperate lockouts from wrath... But peoples bitching is the reason why we can't have nice things

Originally Posted by Fahrenheit

The only people who put in any additional effort in 25m over 10m are the recruitment officers. As a raider of both, it's the same. You show up, press some buttons, kills some interent dragons and collect purple stuff.

Never been a 25m raid leader have you ?
From experience, leading any single fight in 25m icc was harder than what ever the fights in 10m t11. Heck, in icc 25m the princes took a lot more effort than all the t11 fights in 10m, and that wasn't even a wing end major boss!

aaand there goes 10% of the subs if they changes world wide..:/

easy fix - exclude Korea from WF race, WoL, WoWProgress and just pretend they don't exist

They better make sure that we get it in eu/us aswell, would be unfair regarding the competitive aspect of the game.

And lets face it this is just the wotlk style of how raiding works.

Also I love 25 man yet I am forced to raid 10 man because all the 25 man guilds died so for all I care they might aswell remove 10 man all together.

And thus, it is finally realised upon by the almighty Blizzard that 25-man will always be harder than the 10-man compatriot due to space in environment, fail chances of more players in raid and the usual higher scaling of health etc of 25-man when both sizes can easily acquire all buffs.

I'm so happy that 25-man will reclaim it's undisputed status of elite raiding from its current disputed status of elite raiding.

So we return to being obliged to gearing in 25s to assist in stomping 10s? Let the crazy koreans keep their backward system

I cannot count how many guilds have disbanded because the couldn't find more people to raid 25 man in wotlk and because there were always those ilvl junkies leaving one guild to join other for the few extra ilvl...if that happens in euro there will be a dramatic change to all guilds and once again there will be a dilemma for people "progress or friends"? By friends I mean a nice , friendly atmosphere between people in small guilds.

an 25 man guild can split to make 2 raids, a small guild for 10mans cannot do 25...also it has been discussed many many times that 25 mans are not more difficult than 10 and sometimes it can be easier. the only problem is to find the people.

Originally Posted by Taftvalue

I get that in cata some encounters were harder in 10 men, but does this apply to Mogu shan vaults? And 25 men does take more effort to organize, and really more loot is not a reward, because obviously there are more players . If they don't do something 25 men will die out, it's not enough reward for the effort, simple as that. But the really awesome part are the separated lockouts, I used to love doing 10 men runs with my friends in Wotlk, after I was done with the 25 men main raid 8). Oh an there's also the fun factor, 10 men feels horribly boring and not epic at all compared to 25 men.

Not only is it applicable to MV, but the very first boss! Stone Guard is a hell of an encounter on 10 man. It's fine on 25 too, but it's no pushover by comparison.

I'm sure this pissed off more people in the US and Eu than it did incentivise Koreans.