MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. Eiffeltower's Avatar
    I appreciate the effort, but this is putting a bit of toilet paper on a gashing wound.
    The wrath model had a lot more benefits, and freedom for the player (if you want to raid 2 per week, go for it. If not, fine. you just wont get the same rewards. This is exactly the current daily model; "you don't have to, but you'll be stronger if you do".

    Hardcore player game time since ICC has been cut down by 50% because of shared lockout. It's that simple.

    STEP 1 : separate lockouts.
    STEP 2 : Implement Korea changes
    ????
    Profit from more raiders online, and more things to do in game.
  1. Azrile's Avatar
    The problem is that 25 mans are NOT harder than 10 mans. 25 mans are harder to ORGANIZE for leaders. They should be trying to find ways to make them easier to organize on the leaders, or find ways to reward the leaders more during the raid. Being a peon dps in a 25M raid is probably easier than being a peon dps in a 10man. There especially is no reason to reward 25M peons over 10M leaders. It is probably drastically more work to be a 10M leader than a 25M peon.

    That aside.. this accomplish nothing. This is not enough to keep 25Ms who were close to falling apart from falling apart. It also is not going to make any 10Ms decide to jump to 25Mans.

    A better solution. Allow the 25M raid to designate 4 leaders. Those leaders then get 2 personal bonus loot roles each week. This rewards the 25M players who are actually doing all the extra work, AND it may be enough to tempt some 10M leaders to try to jump up to 25M.
  1. zwaffelinho's Avatar
    would be interesting to have the actual percentages rather than this vague description, just so we can put a label on it. 10 man heroic will on average drop x ilvl vs the average 25 man x ilvl. If we have these numbers you could just call it what it is: 25man drops x ilvl higher loot than 10 man.
  1. Jeleh's Avatar
    TLDR - We got raids wrong.
  1. DarthMetatron's Avatar
    So in addition to the already average higher item level of 25's (because 25's already drop more gear - duh!) there will be an even more gaping item level difference between an equally progressed 25 than 10. I thought 25's are all about skill...it's actually the opposite...

    It already takes much more skill for a 10M to be world first because of the raid comp restrictions and less gear drops, so now it will be even more sweet when Paragon still destroys these 25's again
  1. Spl4sh3r's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Is this any different from having to kill H LK for months so that everyone in the raid can get the mount? The argument that you are going to make the hardest of the hardcore raiders burn out because you make them... raid, is somewhat silly. Apparently you also make hardcore raiders burn out if you make a tier last too long or be too challenging, because then you just have top end guilds raiding like maniacs for weeks on end like in tier 11. I think that when you decide to be a hardcore raider you know what you are signing up for.
    It is not even close to the same. With the mount example it will take 25 kills total (including first kill) to get the mount to every main raider (assuming you have 25 main and rest as spare). However to get the Thunderforge which in this case means Best In Slot you don't have a guaranteed drop rate for each kill so you might not even get it on those 25 kills at all. That said there is also the argument about RNG and Thunderforged pieces you already got drops so it takes ever longer. So even at a 50% drop rate, and I assume only one of these pieces can drop at a time it would take over 50 kills to get full Best In Slow for all raiders.
  1. Palaplu's Avatar
    So first they introduce LFR, something that almost completely destroys servers communities, and now they bring 25-man loots back? Blizzard, what the hell have or haven't you been smoking lately? Introduce gear upgrades, remove it again. CRZ messes up camping, the one plus side we had as low-populated servers. Fix what you introduce, don't just let it be and make new things. I've never said this before, but this game is going downhill. Not catering the casuals, but the noobs; it shows in your attitude in blue posts.
  1. Bluegirl91's Avatar
    Oh man, why on earth do they make stronger loot dropping in normal than on heroic?
    Now you can't even switch out for other members of your raid, if you don't need anything of the normal loot table from a boss, because there could be chance of a better item...

    What a stupid and not thought through decision...
  1. MoanaLisa's Avatar
    As compromises go, they must have hit it just about right. There's a lot of 10-man raiders complaining about being pushed off to the side for 25-man and a fair number of 25-man devotees who think it won't make any difference at all.

    Well played, Blizzard.
  1. Eiffeltower's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    The problem is that 25 mans are NOT harder than 10 mans. 25 mans are harder to ORGANIZE for leaders. They should be trying to find ways to make them easier to organize on the leaders, or find ways to reward the leaders more during the raid. Being a peon dps in a 25M raid is probably easier than being a peon dps in a 10man. There especially is no reason to reward 25M peons over 10M leaders. It is probably drastically more work to be a 10M leader than a 25M peon.

    That aside.. this accomplish nothing. This is not enough to keep 25Ms who were close to falling apart from falling apart. It also is not going to make any 10Ms decide to jump to 25Mans.

    A better solution. Allow the 25M raid to designate 4 leaders. Those leaders then get 2 personal bonus loot roles each week. This rewards the 25M players who are actually doing all the extra work, AND it may be enough to tempt some 10M leaders to try to jump up to 25M.

    lol.
    you obviously don't raid 25man.

    plus your solution would have no impact / benefit since raider would just designate as leader the person that needs loot the most, nullying your brilliant theory that 25 man is only harder for 4 people in the raid.
  1. Marooned's Avatar
    Well the good thing is that if you have drops from say first 3 bosses of a raid, you will have some motivations to do them again, since there is a small chance for an upgrade, its a cool change.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Ye - Sounds like 25 mans need more of the Special Olympics stuff than this to bother.

    Fact of the matter - 25 man content is now dropping more loot and better loot. It will make the overall progression of every character faster and easier.

    10 man content is now harder cause players will have lower ilvl than those in 25 mans. So now the real question is... are you a player ? or are you a leech? Join the right group size accordingly.
  1. Skippy88's Avatar
    I look at my previous guild who ran 25's but due to a lack of players went down to 1 or 2 10's each week. They would love to return to 25's but without more people it's not going to happen.
  1. Moradim's Avatar
    10 man gets 2 drops per boss.

    TWO. DROPS.

    and now 25's get better loot just for having 15 more people in the raid?

    thanks for telling 10's to fuck right off, blizzard.
  1. Aoyi's Avatar
    My only real concern with this is the way it contributes even more to stat inflation. We're apparently jumping from 496 to 522 for normal mode comparison. Now there's also going to be another 6 item levels on top of that plus a 2 tier jump to tier 16 to sccount for LFR. That means we're starting an expansion with 5 man gear that's 463 and ending with raid gear that's either 548 or 554 depending on whether they account for Thunderforge or not. Heroic tier 16 will be 561 or 567 respectively or higher if they do elite mode again.

    I'm actually curious if this new thunderforge classification has a chance to drop from the token roll as well.
  1. Marooned's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    A better solution. Allow the 25M raid to designate 4 leaders. Those leaders then get 2 personal bonus loot roles each week. This rewards the 25M players who are actually doing all the extra work, AND it may be enough to tempt some 10M leaders to try to jump up to 25M.
    The problem with this kind of solutions is that raid leaders or active players already get all the gear they want in a month, so quantity doesn't matter, quality (ilvl) matters.
  1. AlisonPrime's Avatar
    My guild has been working to rebuild to 25s (We lost so many people to Dragon Suck) We are about 4 recruits shy so we do 2 10 man teams (We used to swap between the 2 groups so no one felt they were on the B team but a fluke happened and now both teams are equal in progression) We keep pushing for 25s but alot of people feel like 25s arent worth it, this might help a bit, its not a complete fix, but its a step in the right direction IMO

    Another good fix would to let 25 man raids drop items that are upgraded half way, this would give incentive to rebuild to 25s and its TOTALLY an option since the 10 man player base can still GET these items for about 750 valor points more.
  1. Nelle's Avatar
    The chance in 25man better be more than just a pathetic change from 5% to 10% chance. The chance better be something like 25% compared to 5% on 10man to make it even matter.

    Also what a silly way to just hide Item Upgrade in fancy words. Should just have sticked with Item Upgrade, but let 25man version of items do 3 upgrades and 10man do 2 upgrades or something similar and then have 25man starting with 1 upgrade already done.
  1. kandalanu's Avatar
    Bigger numbers thats all. Wont make any effect at all for anything - just guilds with bigger luck will be even "better" than those without luck. Not even close to dungeon finder and LFR.
  1. Crazia's Avatar
    Sadly this just is not the way to go, its still just rng based. To make ppl go back to 25 they would have to make those Thunderforged items drop only from 25.

    And yes to all the nay sayers, 10 man is easyer than 25, with a few exeptions like Hagara and, and, and ?

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