MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. Archidamos's Avatar
    Good change to keep those in casual guild like ours keep coming after getting all the gear they can or to stop pushing to squeeze their alt in.

    Bad idea to short the 10/25 ppl issue because as a motive is very moderate to impact significantly the way things are, but at the same time, it is significant enough for the 10 man moaners that would complain for anything that would make 25s at least a remotely viable choice.

    Also they skip one very importand detail. What is the actual % for such an item to drop?
    Is it at the "very rare" items category up to 2%? If that is the case and 10 man have 1% and 25 2% chance then all this discussion is for nothing. The thunderforged items would be so rare that would have 0 impact to reverse the decline of 25s.

    On the oposite side if the item is at 50% to drop in 25 and 10% to drop in 10 then we re talking about a significant change that would give to the officers leaders both the motive and the argument to swap to 25 while keeping their group united.

    If you ask me i would say 10% for 10s and 25% for 25s. Goes well with the number of people needed to raid.

    Most likely the rarity but also the Chances for thunderforged items in a 10 and in a 25 are subject to change, or under thought.
    And it seems that our opinion is going to influence excactly this part of blizzard's decision and not the implementation of thunderforged items...
    They went public with it to gauge reactions and to modify their policy according to the reaction regarding the drop chances in 10 man and 25 man raid.
  1. Djaye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ril-gania View Post
    no. 25m obtains more loot per person. on top of it, RNG impacts 10m badly. like, really really badly at the moment.
    how exactly does 25 man give out more loot per person? and how exactly does rng not effect 25's in the exact same way it effects 10's? you sound like someone who has never done a 25man...ever
  1. Sarevokcz's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Total & Utter Bullshit.

    I'm a 10 Man Raider, and I see no reason to be annoyed by any of this. This gives very little incentive to be in 25 Man, but that is all it needed, just a small nudge, nothing major! This is perfect.
    Well to be honest, 10mans already have alot more trouble with useless loot early on and are slower in gearing in general. If there were atleast some restrictions on what sort of Thunderforged loot could drop, like only for specs in the raid and not that holy pala shit when you dont have paladin... Yea, double the disappointment, when 10man finally gets this extra loot, only to be immediately DEd.
  1. Howard Moon's Avatar
    Better than nothing for 25-man guilds.

    On the downside: more RNG.
  1. Gilian's Avatar
    There is some serious lack of creativity at Blizzard.

    First we get a legendary quest chain which I thought was an awesome idea at the beginning but after seeing the quests and how we obtain the items it's seriously crap. How is it legendary to get a gem from LFR? How is it legendary to get reputation with a faction by killing level 90 mobs? How is it legendary to gain 6000 valor points or do BG's? And on top of that you get all these quests done by doing the things you were most likely already planning to do.

    Then they come with some lame item upgrade system which they remove just two months later. Did they really think this through?
    They catagorize this under "catch up mechanics" while it is just another way to keep people busy and addicted. No one needs more catch up mechanics. And we all know everyone will keep upgrading their items just because it makes them stronger and not because they need to catch up. It only makes people feel more obligated to cap valor points (same with that stupid legendary quest).

    And now they come with this crap. No one asked for this. I don't want my farming to be even more appealing. I actually don't want to farm at all! Now guilds will focus even more on clearing normal before the lockout reset instead of focusing on heroic mode. But yeah, this makes farming bosses more interesting because everyone gets happy over 6 ilvls!


    Blizzard should stop limitating and restricting themselves and start making fun content instead of this crap. Let people complain because there will always be something to complain about anyway. Stop focusing so much on 'catering to the majority' and keeping everyone happy. You are ruining your own game.
    Get creative and do whatever you think is fun instead of analizing every little detail and balancing every little thing in this game. Make something that I don't like but at least make it fun instead of another boring upgrade system or some lame quest chain because you might piss some people off who 'don't have time' or 'don't want stress in a videogame' or can't be bothered to actually interact with others in an MMO and want to solo everything.
  1. Sarevokcz's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    how exactly does 25 man give out more loot per person? and how exactly does rng not effect 25's in the exact same way it effects 10's? you sound like someone who has never done a 25man...ever
    dont 25man tier bosses drop 6 pieces of loot? 10mans get only two.
    But if you dont get how 10mans are screwed with rng, then you need to get some highschool math sessions, pronto.
  1. Howard Moon's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    how exactly does 25 man give out more loot per person?
    It does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    and how exactly does rng not effect 25's in the exact same way it effects 10's?
    It's well known. Think about it. Since in 25-man more loot drops, and there are more different classes in the group, there is a higher chance that someone will want the pieces that drop. In 10-man there is more chance that loot will be thrown away after a couple of weeks. I've done both, btw.
  1. Gilian's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Total & Utter Bullshit.

    I'm a 10 Man Raider, and I see no reason to be annoyed by any of this. This gives very little incentive to be in 25 Man, but that is all it needed, just a small nudge, nothing major! This is perfect.
    This is perfect? This will do nothing at all. No one is going to do 25 mans because of some chance of getting 6 ilvls on an item which is just a little higher than 10 mans.
    We don't need more or better loot anyway. We get plenty already.

    This whole new designation of items is just some bad and uncreative idea to solve a made up issue. An idea no one asked for.

    This will make people feel even more forced to do LFR because it will now drop even better loot. So we get more people auto attacking and afking, dieing on purpose or the "oh I didn't get inside" /afk because the rewards are way too good to pass on but it is one boring grind.
    But LFR is a success because 30% uses it! People can do it to 'see content'. People have fun doing it! Yeah right. I do have to give it to them, it is the best catch up mechanic they came up with.
  1. Berkhtar's Avatar
    At least a small incentive for 25m raiding. Not enough unless the chances for TF gear is significantly higher, but at least a step in the right direction.
  1. Taiphon's Avatar
    I can't believe people are getting upset about this: Until Blizzard specifies droprates for these items in 10 and 25m, we don't know how meaningfull the incentive will be.

    The real deal is they give people an incentive to do raids after they've already received loot from all bosses, so content lasts longer.
  1. taaveti's Avatar
    Will this affect the TW/CN/KR servers? I mean, will the recent separation of 10 and 25 man lockouts be reverted on these servers?
    Playing on the TW server, I for one absolutely HATED what they have done in 5.1. Not only was it a slap to the face to the 10 man raiders, worse of all, it promotes Gold raids - where you bid item using gold and have the amount shared by the raid at the end, which was quite dominant in ICC era, and slowly declined during cata and MoP, then came back with the introduction of 5.1.
    Second of all, our 10 man raid leader (currently at 8/16H) has been asking us to gear ourselves up in public gold raids (who have cleared 16/16 normal and will soon be working on heroics) in order to help progression on our 10 man, which is something I despise completely.

    Thus, I am hoping that the seperate lockout will be removed on the Asian servers and this new system to be implemented instead in 5.2. As long as we won't be forced to do 25man for our 10man progression every again, I can live with this new system.
  1. Howard Moon's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    This will make people feel even more forced to do LFR because it will now drop even better loot.
    Read the blue post again:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    <snip> there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.
    LFR loot is not being changed.
  1. Valkryx's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Total & Utter Bullshit.

    I'm a 10 Man Raider, and I see no reason to be annoyed by any of this. This gives very little incentive to be in 25 Man, but that is all it needed, just a small nudge, nothing major! This is perfect.
    amen brother! its actually funny tho, i just saw another thread and it was 25man raiders throwing a fit over this saying that its a bs change and doesnt help them any. this isnt to try and make 10 mans feel they have to go back to 25mans, this is blizzard saying hey guys in 25mans we see you still like 25mans still trying but have a harder time with recruiting and organizing since your a miniority, heres a treat.
  1. Taiphon's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    Good change to keep those in casual guild like ours keep coming after getting all the gear they can or to stop pushing to squeeze their alt in.
    Indeed.

    Bad idea to short the 10/25 ppl issue because as a motive is very moderate to impact significantly the way things are, but at the same time, it is significant enough for the 10 man moaners that would complain for anything that would make 25s at least a remotely viable choice.
    Bad idea? Meaningless, I'd say.

    Also they skip one very importand detail. What is the actual % for such an item to drop?
    Is it at the "very rare" items category up to 2%? If that is the case and 10 man have 1% and 25 2% chance then all this discussion is for nothing. The thunderforged items would be so rare that would have 0 impact to reverse the decline of 25s.
    Worse: Since 25m have 2,5 times more players than 10m, if the droprate is only twice as high, it gives players an incentive to move to 10m.

    If they want to make an impact, give 25m one guaranteed thunderforged drop per boss, and 10m a 10% chance.

    Most likely the rarity but also the Chances for thunderforged items in a 10 and in a 25 are subject to change, or under thought.
    And it seems that our opinion is going to influence excactly this part of blizzard's decision and not the implementation of thunderforged items...
    They went public with it to gauge reactions and to modify their policy according to the reaction regarding the drop chances in 10 man and 25 man raid.
    My thoughts exactly.

    It's a good idea, from their perspective: Depending on the feedback, they can make it a real incentive to do 25m, or tune it so that 10 and 25m get equal chances per player - then it will still be a useful feature to keep people farming.
  1. T Man's Avatar
    The drop should of been higher on 25man before this unput due to the drop ratio of 10 and 25.

    If it was not higher on 25man you would have more chance of getting the items on 10man then 25man.
  1. Hyrican's Avatar
    The sad part about this is:

    The only reason why the horrible loot design in 10 man stays crappy and gets worse with nonset pieces now being able to be thunderforged is because the state of 25mans.
    I agree 25man dying out is not nice for 25mans. They convert to 10mans which are also dying out. Just not that much because of the influx of raiders from 25man and the downsizing.

    Have you even considered the reasons why 25man raiders do not want to raid 10man? Yes one part of it is the feeling of 25players in a raid. Another reason is the horrible item loot distribution in 10man and much more wasted drops which is now much more rng. Be true to yourselfs. Half of the 25man players already know item loot distribution is much better in their raidsize. You don't want go for 6 months without seeing every item on the loottable and now you want this item also to be thunderforged. Great.


    I also do not see the reward going to the "organizers" of 25man. The 25man raiders with less individual importance cheers of course for higher drop rates.

    TL;DR
    10man loot distribution is horrible and sadly won't be fixed because the state of 25mans. This is now worse with Thunderforged.
  1. Chipper's Avatar
    This is a stupid, pointless, useless change that doesn't address the problem they acknowledge is driving the 25 man decline: LOGISTIC COMMITMENTS AND REQUIREMENTS OF OFFICERS/GLs. Allow guilds to designate themselves as 10 or 25 man guilds to the game through interface, provide more automated control to ease leadership drudgery and better logistical services/monetary (real and/or in-game) discounts 25m raid groups than 10m. Problem solved.

    P.S.- Another thought: Allow registered and verified raiding guild leaders and raid leaders to receive discounts on their monthly subs. 25m GLs/RLs/officers get double the discount.

    Time is money, friend.
  1. rogas's Avatar
    25 man died, because blizzard promoted 10man raiding. Simple as that. Who in his richteous mind kills off a complete 25man raiding community, with guilds that existed from the start, in favor of casual noob raiders that gonna play 10man for some weeks? OMG.

    These half-ass solutions won't rebuild a whole 25man raiding community!

    cry
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Taiphon View Post
    Indeed.

    My thoughts exactly.

    It's a good idea, from their perspective: Depending on the feedback, they can make it a real incentive to do 25m, or tune it so that 10 and 25m get equal chances per player - then it will still be a useful feature to keep people farming.
    It seems to me you dont quite understand the basics of the loot system.

    10 mans get 2 items to drop. Those two have (1%) to be Thunderforged. - Then every player has lucky coins that have (1%) chance
    25 mans get 5 items to drop. Those five items have (2%) chance each to be Thunderforged. - Then every player has lucky coins that have (2%) chance.

    25 ppl having 2% chance with lucky coins vs 10 mans with 1% does not favor 25 mans per player ?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 10:23 AM ----------

    Here is my suggestion to solve this issue without adding more ilvls to the game and partly solving these issues without adding more hassle.

    BLizzard adds a new token to the game called Thunderforged token. This item is ALWAYS needed for a player to upgrade highest tier gear for the extra ilvls. It will also cost valor to upgrade it.

    These thunderforged tokens have a chance to drop on the bosses like items. The chance for them to drop in 25 mans is higher per person than in 10 mans. Then every player also has a chance to get this token with lucky coin roll.

    How does this help 25 mans ? Since these tokens are dropping per boss and can be distributed in raid - the 25 man guild can reward players that deserve the upgrade . At the same time it will not be leading to extra stress in the guild. And since every boss has these tokens - players would be more likely to step out on a boss where another person actually needs the item dropping but not just the token.
  1. Kryos's Avatar
    Bribing players to play 25 man isn't going to work so well. The main reason why 25 man are not played anymore is the management - you need DKP or Loot Council, an external website to micromanage the loot is also helpful. If Blizzard wants people to play 25 mans without the need to bribe them they need to adds more features to the calendar and guild so the whole loot management and player management will be in-game and mainly done automatical. If we had a DKP system build in (optional) that tracks who played when and how long and such stuff much more raidleaders would switch back from 10 man to 25 man.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 11:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
    This is a stupid, pointless, useless change that doesn't address the problem they acknowledge is driving the 25 man decline: LOGISTIC COMMITMENTS AND REQUIREMENTS OF OFFICERS/GLs. Allow guilds to designate themselves as 10 or 25 man guilds to the game through interface, provide more automated control to ease leadership drudgery and better logistical services/monetary (real and/or in-game) discounts 25m raid groups than 10m. Problem solved.
    I agree but no need to exclude 10 mans from that. With such improved automatich raid controls many would turn back to the more "epic" 25 man style compared to the "family" 10 man raid style.

Site Navigation