MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. Tax's Avatar
    Not liking that LFR is 502 compared to the 496 regular mode gear thats out right now.
  1. Amalisa's Avatar
    All guilds are dying, this won't fix anything.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    I don't really see the problem.

    They have a HIGHER CHANCE for TR gear to drop, but doesn't mean they don't drop in 10man, and you know how RNG works, A with higher chance doesn't always means he gets more than B who has a lower chance.

    I would have against it if it is a fix ilvl increase, or get something that you just cannot get in 10man, but I am OK with them have a slightly higher chance, just like now it is more likely for them to get gear that isn't going to get DE'd or goes to OS (hence more actual upgrades).

    Since 10man can still obtain these TR amours, I am OK with it.
    The RNG is already bigger in 10 mans based on simple numbers of classes and specs in the raid. Now you might have a thunderforged item dropping in 10 man that noone in the raid needs or can use to keep the progression going for that team. It will yet again create more frustration for players.
  1. Condemner's Avatar
    I like this idea, being in a 10man guild that is. We probably never go 25, which i like more, but this does not really affect 10mans because the gear isn't better in 25 mans. The chances of drops are just better, which i feel is just fair, mostly cause of the difficulty that comes with organization.
  1. Schaden's Avatar
    I just heard my loot master screaming from across two continents.
  1. Ilnezhara's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Migas11 View Post
    Hello, my name is migas11, my warlockian nickname is Azgraal, i am a 10man raider, been one for years, and i agree with these changes with all my heart.

    It doesn't hurt 10man groups, and has a little change of rewarding 25man groups. I am happy.
    Except for the fact where they will tune heroic modes to take Thunderforges into consideration meaning 25 mans will have a strong advantage. Given, we don't know the numbers, but if it's greater than 10% it's utterly moronic.

    So yeah, to all of you who don't understand progression, go read the raid tuning blog and you'll understand how if they tune their content with these weapons in mind and 10 player raids see less of these items then 10 player raids are getting screwed.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tax View Post
    Not liking that LFR is 502 compared to the 496 regular mode gear thats out right now.
    They have to scale it differently because of the ilvl upgrade system. We are still months away from 5.2 and alot of the 496 gear will be 502 by then.

    Not that I like the Ilvl system at all. It does more bad than good for the game in my opinion. Including more stat inflation, bigger gaps between best and the rest based on gear and the worst.. pushing more players to just play one spec on a multispec classes.
  1. DAVE7X's Avatar
    Seems like a pretty good idea to me, shame such a system wasn't in sooner. And some people seem to be overthinking the problems that go with it - it won't cause major ilvl inflation, because the thunderforged items aren't an extra tier really, theyre more of a half tier. look at the gap in ilvls between normal and hc on the current tier. and guilds shouldn't feel compeleed to farm thunderforged gear, unless the drop rate is quite high, simply because it would be quicker to start farming the hc gear as soon as they're able, its merely a perk
  1. Kashii's Avatar
    What a crock. So now 25 man raids not only drop more loot PER PERSON in the raid, but also drop more extra special loot PER PERSON...all because the officers have to do a little more work.

    Having lead a 40 man, 25 man and 10 man raiding guilds I feel this is a totally wrong headed way to try to fix an imaginary problem. If you want a solution, Blizzard, then have one raid size of 15 players. It would be the least disruptive thing you have done to raiding in the past two expansions.
  1. Torm's Avatar
    Well all depends on the drop chances. If you consider, the similar drop rate means that when 2 players in 10-man raid get Thunderforged items, then 5 players should have it on 25-man (well should use 1:2.5, but I don't want to split a raider in half). If the chance to get Thunderforged item in 25-man raid will be higher (considering for example 2x higher -> 1:5 instead of 1:2.5) then it might be worth and it will help progress 25-man raiding much faster and usually closer to the level of 10-man raiding guilds (considering 10-mans are usually easier).
  1. hanabi12's Avatar
    Best thing they ever did this xpac.
  1. Firebert's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tax View Post
    Not liking that LFR is 502 compared to the 496 regular mode gear thats out right now.
    As with Heroic raiders being forced to do Normal for the first week, if you've done no Heroic raiding in the previous tier you're being "forced" to do LFR until you hit 502.
  1. Unholyground's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Total & Utter Bullshit.

    I'm a 10 Man Raider, and I see no reason to be annoyed by any of this. This gives very little incentive to be in 25 Man, but that is all it needed, just a small nudge, nothing major! This is perfect.
    It is a damn good incentive if the increase is significant enough for sure. I would like to see them remove the shared lockout for 25 and 10 man.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Condemner View Post
    I like this idea, being in a 10man guild that is. We probably never go 25, which i like more, but this does not really affect 10mans because the gear isn't better in 25 mans. The chances of drops are just better, which i feel is just fair, mostly cause of the difficulty that comes with organization.
    10 man content will be balanced for higher ilvls so progression will be slower for 10 mans. Best players might deal with it - but most will not. That leads to more and more ppl not bothering with raiding at all and then BLizzard needs to find real solution to the issues.

    The CORE of MMORPG game is to create a system that makes good and solid progression for MAJORITY of the players. Not just few. Any system that starts to reward some players over others for playing the same content is therefor - just gamebreaking. This system will not help that majority at all. It does exactly the opposite.
  1. Spotnick's Avatar
    I just realized how this will be bad for guilds using DKP or EPGP.. usually you are happy when you know if you're next in line for an item.. now some people who already got your trinket might get it AGAIN before you if it drops an upgraded version.

    Granted this issue exists once you start hard modes, but this amplifies it.
  1. rangore's Avatar
    20 ilvl difference between lfr and normal? why isnt it 13 like in 5.0 and the difference between normal and heroic?
  1. Mnevis's Avatar
    I don't see this changing anything, really. 25s have had the advantage of gearing up faster for years and that hasn't stopped the decline of the format.

    To really change something, you'd need to convince a guild like mine to make an attempt to convert or merge to a 25 heroic guild (we used to run an offday 25man semi-pug back in ICC, and I had an alt in a 25man 'progression' heroic group, but since lockouts became exclusive, I can count on two hands the number of 25man normal or heroic raids I've participated in). I'd be for giving it a go personally, but it would have to be a pretty big change to convince the rest of my group, a change that would definitely upset more 10man raiders than they're prepared to. Realistically for many of us, unless they put it back at a whole 'tier' difference again, we're going to stay with a better, easier to organize, smaller group than going to the trouble of finding 20 more people who can do decent numbers while paying attention to mechanics. I know my job personally would be easier in a 25, in most circumstances, but I'm not in charge.

    It's a bone to the 25mans, it's fine with me. Not going to make 25s make a big comeback or anything, and hopefully the effect will be more mollification than feeding of their superiority complex.
  1. worstdpswarrioralive's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    This. all 25 players who say 25 man is harder than 10 man. They used the upgrade mechanic to avoid nerfing raids, now they just give it to 25 man and make it so much easier.
    upgrades were not RELEVEANT in progression kills. Holy shit, why are you 10mans so bitchy, not only are all fights tuned for 10man, you still have to whine and moan about 25mans being more difficult. Seriously since everything is unique equipped I don't see how your states is really any more relevant to the dps check that was garalon. Not to mention the top tier dps need to carry on garalon (rogues and warriors) up till then had shit optimized gear, well rogues are a different story but at least for warriors, with out proper trinkets this tier carrying was much harder/ is harder.
  1. cyqu's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Total & Utter Bullshit.

    I'm a 10 Man Raider, and I see no reason to be annoyed by any of this. This gives very little incentive to be in 25 Man, but that is all it needed, just a small nudge, nothing major! This is perfect.

    is the nudge of them getting 6 pieces of loot and us getting 2 pieces not enough of a small little nudge?
  1. OneSent's Avatar
    They call this incentive? Items should drop more frequently in 25-man, regardless. I hardly doubt any 25-man guild that's on the verge of collapsing into a 10-man guild is going to change there mind over this.

    And WTF is with all these different tiers of loot within the same tier?!?!?!

    LFR mode, LFR pro mode, Normal mode, Thunderforged Normal mode, Advanced Normal Challenge mode, Heroic mode, Thunderforged Heroic mode, Heroic Elite mode, Super Sayan over 9000 heroic tantric mode.

    No wonder there's so much number inflation in this game. And to think that there used to only be one type of gear that dropped for everyone.

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