MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. araine's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    To be fair, the only people that actually need to put additional effort into 25 mans is the organizers. Since there is no way to actually identify them (fairly) in-game, everyone who lumps themselves into that size raid group will be given an equal RNG based chance for better gear. I find this amusing because;
    1- 25 man players are not necessarily better than any other player, they just raid in that size group.
    2- The system still doesn't reward the TRUE heroes of 25 man raids, the Guild officers that organize and deal with the drama that that size group must sadly be a victim of.


    But, like I said, no way to really give these people true recognition without the mindless dps that fills the spots getting all hot and bothered. Really, better to not offer any incentive at all and just let the raid size dwindle down to 15 or 10.

    The guilds knows who there organizers are have the guild reimburse them for the "extra work" really give them 1000g a week for running 2 raid nights a week if it isnt enough give them 10k but inflating the gear even more in favor of 25mans is the wrong way to go.

    The fact that it already drops 1 extra item compared to what the size should indicate in drops is bad enough adding in this disaster of inflated gear being more common in 25 will all but kill 10man raiding
  1. FalinMor's Avatar
    10-man raider here. This seems like a pretty good solution to me.
  1. Lakeside's Avatar
    I would imagine that a lot of people are like myself and they are simply done raiding 25 man. No amount of additional incentive will make it worth doing something you don't want to do on a regular basis. If anything, tipping the scales too far toward 25 man reward might cause some people to just stop altogether if that's not what interests them.

    Of course I'm looking at this from the officer perspective. It is just far too much work keeping a larger raiding guild happy and productive, imo.

    Someone also mentioned DKP above. That's bound to be tons of fun with the new loot system.
  1. Crevox's Avatar
    More RNG, and now, regardless of how you sugercoat it, it IS better to raid with a 25 man guild.
  1. araine's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kektonic View Post
    How do you think 10 mans started? Pandering to crybabies who have dinosaur computers or a million and one excuses why they don't like 25 man raiding aka "i just want purples!"
    Strange since i wanted 10 mans to be able to not having to ever again raid with the last 6-9 idiots that cant ever stand out of fire etc etc etc etc not about purples or loot just about not having to wipe to IDIOTS that cant see a big MASSIVE fire burning there shoes off. Not about loot just about doing content without having to do it with 6-9 carried useless scrubs

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 08:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crevox View Post
    More RNG, and now, regardless of how you sugercoat it, it IS better to raid with a 25 man guild.
    It will kill competitive 10 man raiding all together
  1. Fenixdown's Avatar
    It's funny how all the 10-man raiders are the ones who like the change, since it does nothing to them whatsoever. What does it actually do to INCREASE interest into 25-man raiding, if all the 10-man raiders are happy with the change to STAY in 10-man raiding guilds?

    The answer is nothing. This didn't fix the problem. It's hardly even a band-aid. If Blizzard wants 25's to be any sort of relevance again, they need to go about this in half of the Wrath system. 25's needs higher item level all across the board, but 10-man should drop lower item level version of IDENTICAL items. That and that alone was the ONLY thing that "screwed" over 10-man, was that the best in slot items (usually trinkets) came only from the 25-man versions of the raids. As long as the items do the exact same things and have the exact same stats weights, but lower item level, then both raids get what they want. 25's gets higher reward for more logistical effort (and in most cases, difficulty...sorry 10-man raiders but you know it's true, look at the fights that require spacing of a raid group and tell me they're harder on 10-man...I rest my case), and 10-man raiders aren't "forced" to do 25's because they're getting the stat weights that give them their best in slot capacity at the stat totals they need to clear their raids.

    This was a horrendous concept, and I really hope they analyze this with a magnifying lens. You're not going to see an increase in 25-man raiding guilds with this change, period. At best, you'll simply stop seeing a decline. Considering of all raiding guilds LESS than 10% of them raid 25-mans now...that's hardly acceptable.
  1. Gurbz's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    The fact that it already drops 1 extra item compared to what the size should indicate in drops is bad enough adding in this disaster of inflated gear being more common in 25 will all but kill 10man raiding
    You are exaggerating the effect this will have, especially since we don't know what the drop chances for the higher ilvl loot is. If it were 100% in the 25s then I would agree with you. But for all we know it could be 1% on 10 and 2% on 25. Regardless, the bonus is not strong enough to cause a mass exodus over to 25s. We might see a few more pop up, but it will not be a dramatic effect. Top end guilds might switch, but the average 10-man will probably not. We'll see a small rise overall in the number of 25-man raids, but 10 man will still make up the overwhelming majority of raids.
  1. kaamila's Avatar
    lets not be confused about the RNG factor of this new addition. just like the random boss trinkets in DS were RNG, if you ran 25man, i guarantee that every one of ur players that needed it, got it. in 10man? youd be lucky if 2 people got it to drop in the entire tier.
  1. Sinn's Avatar
    I only do 10-man and I like 10 man more than 25-man overall (each raid size has its advantages), but I think it's about time they give an incentive for 25-man raiding. I would have prefered the ICC model (different items and 25>10) but I think it's a step in the right direction.

    I wish they would have given the droprate already. They probably don't to spare them all the whining, but still..
  1. Freia's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by worstdpswarrioralive View Post
    OMG 2 people get visions. So much to dispel. Please, on top the fact that zerk rage breaks the fear, you 10mans sure love to whine.
    If you are going to call someone stupid and argue then get the mechanics correct. It is 1 person for every 5 people. 5 visions in 25m, when you have more dispels. Sounds fair.

    You really should figure out what the word whining actually means. Me correcting a false argument isn't whining. I didn't even argue the fights were easier on 10m or 25m.

    And you act 25m raiders never whine. I see a ton of it in this thread and every other thread that deteriorates into 10vs 25m argument. Actually most of your posts come across as whining. Keep whining about how much harder 25m is. No one cares.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kektonic View Post
    lol you're completely right.

    LFR is 25 because of difficulty. It has nothing to do with the fact DPS queues would be 14 hours if LFR was 10 man.
    You do realize there has been blue posts on why they haven't implemented 10m lfr? And they were for the exact reason the person you quoted said. 25m lfr makes it easier to carry the players that are underperforming.
  1. kreebs's Avatar
    Should only be given to 25 man raiders in my opinion. That would be a real incentive.
  1. Viromand's Avatar
    They should let 25man raid crossrealm, that would help alot this change may even be worse for 25man. almost all good raiders dont want better gear or higher ilvl they just want to raid 10 or 25 man but organizing and having enough equaly skilled raiders for 25 man raiding is harder, having raiders who just want the better gear doenst mean they are good players, they just want better gear. 80% of the raiders are happy they way it is.
  1. PaintOnASign's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by zuluslayer View Post
    Should only be given to 25 man raiders in my opinion. That would be a real incentive.
    That would be entirely against the goal that Blizzard is trying to achieve. I mean... seriously? But I suppose you're in the state of mind that 25's is superior and deserves better rewards.

    As a 10-man raider, I don't mind 25's having a higher chance. They already have to deal with 15 more people, and they have to distribute more loot. What I don't like is we still haven't seen any changes to seeing smarter loot drop for 10-man. We only get 2 pieces of loot per mob, and we still still some nights full of Holy Paladin gear with no Holy Pally in sight. I'm also not a big fan of this new grind. I do like that it makes farm content more exciting, but I don't think the more hardcore raiders are going to see it that way. They're not going to just hope that the loot drops and forget about it if it doesn't, they're going to try and actually farm it, which will feel like a long grind to your desired loot. It also means farm content is going to take even longer to be done with.
  1. blaxter's Avatar
    So yeah, now that you have less and less people rading, let's fuck the majority (which raid in 10). I don't know why the fuck am I still playing
  1. Awkilles's Avatar
    Terrible idea. Should keep VP NPC instead of dropping more tiers of gear. The grind actually outweighs the incentive to keep running farmed content for a full thunderforged set.
  1. kreebs's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by PaintOnASign View Post
    That would be entirely against the goal that Blizzard is trying to achieve. I mean... seriously? But I suppose you're in the state of mind that 25's is superior and deserves better rewards.
    Even blizzard acknowledge that 25 man is the harder choise but won't say it to loud due to the large 10 man community.
  1. Shaley's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by worstdpswarrioralive View Post
    OMG 2 people get visions. So much to dispel. Please, on top the fact that zerk rage breaks the fear, you 10mans sure love to whine.
    2 of 10 people. 20%.
    5 of 25 people. 20%.

    YouMeanToTellMe.jpg that 20% is actually equal to another 20%?
  1. Eskobar's Avatar
    Seems like a good way to go about this "problem". If numbers are tweaked properly, 25s will see these drop more often per capita, giving them a slight gear boost (I still think this is not the right approach to it since gear doesn't solve the logistic issue that Raid Leaders face, not "normal" Raiders), and 10s don't feel forced to change to 25s since the gear is not actually better, because they also have a chance to get it.
  1. Durmindo's Avatar
    Woot more RNG, but 25m needed this change less and less people play 25m anymore
  1. Nindoriel's Avatar
    They should do this for LFR too. Then getting the same item multiple times wouldn't be so bad.

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