MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. threadz's Avatar
    Doesn't really matter to me because I won't be going back to 25 man any time soon.
  1. araine's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by kaamila View Post
    lets not be confused about the RNG factor of this new addition. just like the random boss trinkets in DS were RNG, if you ran 25man, i guarantee that every one of ur players that needed it, got it. in 10man? youd be lucky if 2 people got it to drop in the entire tier.

    Exactly the RNG gods screw 10 man far more often than 25 man since the total amount of drops is so much lower heck it is even lower than it should be compared to 1 to 1 ratio of players in the raids. this handicap for the 25mans means they will beat the RNG god a hell of a lot easier and everyone will soon enough wander around in the BiS in 25man while 10 man is left in the dirt. I saw 1 trinket drop in 8 months of clears doubt 25man's doing the same got same shitty luck.

    Problem comes on tier bosses since 1/2 the loot table is clogged up with an at that time USELESS tier item and the odds of getting something good on the loot is just about zero if not zero since the boss is forced to drop a massive amount of crap ( which is NOT the case in 25man since they got a hell of a lot more slots that RNG can roll in the good stuff,

    These 2 events of higher drop rate and higher amount of slots will created a nasty compound deal that will obliterate 10 man raiding since the odds of getting the good gear in 10 man will be basically ZERO

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 09:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by PaintOnASign View Post
    That would be entirely against the goal that Blizzard is trying to achieve. I mean... seriously? But I suppose you're in the state of mind that 25's is superior and deserves better rewards.

    As a 10-man raider, I don't mind 25's having a higher chance. They already have to deal with 15 more people, and they have to distribute more loot. What I don't like is we still haven't seen any changes to seeing smarter loot drop for 10-man. We only get 2 pieces of loot per mob, and we still still some nights full of Holy Paladin gear with no Holy Pally in sight. I'm also not a big fan of this new grind. I do like that it makes farm content more exciting, but I don't think the more hardcore raiders are going to see it that way. They're not going to just hope that the loot drops and forget about it if it doesn't, they're going to try and actually farm it, which will feel like a long grind to your desired loot. It also means farm content is going to take even longer to be done with.

    But next patch you get to watch thundergod holy pally gear get sharded
  1. nazrakin's Avatar
    This will do nothing.

    The truth is that 25m aren't falling apart because they are "harder to manage"; theres little difference between raid leading 25m and 10m. 25ms are falling apart because they are harder to organize. Getting 25 capable raiders on every night is where the real difficulty is. The chances that someone will have to be out for the night, have an emergency, or just flat quit the game goes way up in a 25m. The chances that you'll have to settle on bad players who constantly stand in bad shit goes up. Both of these are further magnified by realm population issues that Blizzard refuses to properly address.
  1. araine's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob6875 View Post
    Stupid imo. IF people have more fun in 10 player raids what is the point of trying to force them to run 25s? It didn't work in earlier expansions and probably won't work now.

    Also adding MORE RNG to the game? That is the last thing we need. This is going to cause some guilds to get geared up much more quickly by getting lucky with the new thunderforged drops while some guilds will never see any or see very few due to bad luck. This is just like legendaries such as warglaves. Some guilds get 20 of them while others get 0 during the entire expansion........ which is not fun.

    Remember that 0 glaive very well, only reason you did BT was for glaives and they never ever dropped not even a single off hand glaive dropped yet you could see scrubs galore in stormwind and orgrimmar with both glaives and like 3 pc at the most of tier on them

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 09:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    This will do nothing.

    The truth is that 25m aren't falling apart because they are "harder to manage"; theres little difference between raid leading 25m and 10m. 25ms are falling apart because they are harder to organize. Getting 25 capable raiders on every night is where the real difficulty is. The chances that someone will have to be out for the night, have an emergency, or just flat quit the game goes way up in a 25m. The chances that you'll have to settle on bad players who constantly stand in bad shit goes up. Both of these are further magnified by realm population issues that Blizzard refuses to properly address.

    combat that with a 5 player bench and do it correctly you should sit out no more than once every 5th week or so. Sure it is extra work to manage that but give the person responsible for the rotation 1000g per raid night and i am sure he will be ok. I just dont see why everyone else has to chip in to cover your guilds expenses that you should deal with by yourself in guild.
  1. DontPanick's Avatar
    People are always talking about the logistical problem of simply getting a 25 man group together... I personally don't think anything extra should be given for guild management. Once you're in the raid, though, 25 man has it's own level of complexity in regards to player assignments and positioning. It's still the same boss room as 10 man, you just have 15 more people to cram into it. This by it's very nature increases the difficulty of most encounters (having to keep 5-8 yards from everyone around you becomes a bit more taxing, while staying in range to dps/heal). 10 mans and 25 mans are simply two different animals, and they shouldn't be crammed into the same category... and it's not just because of guild/raid logistical management. The fights become more complicated (not harder) because you have more people. 10 mans tend to feel more simple and less crazy. I'm not saying they feel easier, just less stressful. This extra complication in 25 man raiding should be compensated, and I think extra Thunderforged items is a step in the correct direction.
  1. Druidjezus's Avatar
    As a dedicated 10 man raider, I think this is a great change to balance out the extra logistical challenge of leading a 25 man. However, I would say if they're going to do this they should consider dropping 25 mans back to 5 pieces of loot instead of 6 or 7 or w/e they're at now.
  1. BigRagu's Avatar
    And eventually we will get LFR thunderforged items, just to please the majority...
  1. Marsha's Avatar
    Sounds a lot like Firestones, but this time the 10 mans get a chance to see them drop too. Doesn't sound like a huge benefit for either raid size until we know what the drop rates are like. Personally I'd prefer Firestones and the ability to choose what item to upgrade.

    The only way Blizzard will ever 'solve" the 10 vs 25 debate is to spend the funds to allow scaling raids.
  1. nazrakin's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Remember that 0 glaive very well, only reason you did BT was for glaives and they never ever dropped not even a single off hand glaive dropped yet you could see scrubs galore in stormwind and orgrimmar with both glaives and like 3 pc at the most of tier on them

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 09:22 PM ----------




    combat that with a 5 player bench and do it correctly you should sit out no more than once every 5th week or so. Sure it is extra work to manage that but give the person responsible for the rotation 1000g per raid night and i am sure he will be ok. I just dont see why everyone else has to chip in to cover your guilds expenses that you should deal with by yourself in guild.
    If a guild is already having issues finding 25 people, where are they going to get 5 extra? Again, thats exactly the type of tedious organization structure that makes 25ms not worth the time and effort.
  1. Ahvanar's Avatar
    I'm not sure if that has been mentionned before, if so my apologies.

    One thing that would make this great is when/if they re enable gear upgrade via VP, it should be to get your gear to that thunderforge status. That way, everyone can get to the same point but 10man would be much slower. i think that would be fair.

    this is from my persective from a 10man standpoint
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by worstdpswarrioralive View Post
    Try leading a 25man progression raid on a dead realm, and then come to me. Even in the worst of times you can cobble together 10 people, but on dead server, where realm forum activity in the last month has been nothing more than bump posts to recruitment threads of 2 raiding guilds one bieng 25m and the other being 10m that disbanded a week earlier, and you'd change your tune. Back in WOTLK and CATA we could keep our standard were they have been since the beginning of BC but now we've lowered our standards just so we can get back ups and fill the raid properly even with an 80% attendance requirement.
    Your issue is Dead realm. This change or any change will not improve that. So plz point that out to Blizzard that merging servers will help 25 mans more for you than adding item lvls.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 09:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kaamila View Post
    lets not be confused about the RNG factor of this new addition. just like the random boss trinkets in DS were RNG, if you ran 25man, i guarantee that every one of ur players that needed it, got it. in 10man? youd be lucky if 2 people got it to drop in the entire tier.
    True. Blizzard is now on the verge of pushing ppl away from their 10 mans with changes like these. And some of those ppl will not be raiding anymore. The RNG for 10 mans is already very bad cause of specs and classes and this just makes it worse.

    I think its poor solution. Adding more and more itemlvls into the game per tier just adds to the stats inflation. 502-541 is huge. And dont forget the 8 extra ilvls. This inflation will eventually become downfall of not just this expansion - but also the entire game. Its called mmoRPG for a reason.
  1. Freia's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by zuluslayer View Post
    Even blizzard acknowledge that 25 man is the harder choise but won't say it to loud due to the large 10 man community.
    If they haven't made a post on it, then they haven't acknowledged it.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Im happy - it will hopefully make ppl realise how damaging the current development decisions of the devs in MOP really are to the game. They have gotten so many things wrong already .. and they keep on going the same route.
  1. Ryokosan's Avatar
    This is a slap in the face as it is. 25 mans get way more loot as it is. We were much more progressed than the 25m guild on our server at one point yet they still out geared us completely. Just make everything a 15 man and be done with the split raiding system.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 05:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dblbaconator View Post
    While I think it's impossible to truly incentivize 10- and 25-mans equally, I think this is a good compromise solution. 25s won't be objectively better, but will be a bit extra rewarding to compensate for the logistics.

    It's entirely possible some of the playerbase will overreact and move from 10s to 25s again out of a thought of being left in the dust if they don't, but we'll see.
    Like Exodus and Paragon merging already? Because that IS happening.
  1. Nekosom's Avatar
    An imperfect solution to an impossible problem. That's all we were ever going to get, and I'm at least glad Blizzard didn't do something silly like revert to the old system, because that was just stupid and broken.
  1. Phrygian's Avatar
    This thread is full of laughs. "25's will be the death of 10s!"

    - There are only 1202 25 Man Raiding Guilds in the world with a single heroic kill.
    - There are 9615 10 Man Raiding Guilds in the world with at least a single heroic kill.

    Wake up.

    There are only around 350 25 Man raiding guilds with a single heroic kill in the US. There are almost 3000 10 man guilds with a heroic kill in the US.

    Wake up.
  1. Chrisxor's Avatar
    The way to solve this issue completely is to only have 1 size of raid. Forget ilvl's and other bullshit. Have 1 size raid, and all the problems end with gear ilvls and people constantly having something to say about it. They should have done this a long time ago.
  1. Stefanish's Avatar
    As a 10 man raider I think this is good but not good enough for 25-man, they deserve a little more.
  1. Marooned's Avatar
    Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable in unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.

    There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
    Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
    Well the new blue post says the drop chance difference is "slight", not a big deal then.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrygian View Post
    This thread is full of laughs. "25's will be the death of 10s!"

    - There are only 1202 25 Man Raiding Guilds in the world with a single heroic kill.
    - There are 9615 10 Man Raiding Guilds in the world with at least a single heroic kill.

    Wake up.

    There are only around 350 25 Man raiding guilds with a single heroic kill in the US. There are almost 3000 10 man guilds with a heroic kill in the US.

    Wake up.
    Since when is heroic kills the new benchmark of WOW? I though BLizzard was aiming for LFR?

    I woke up long ago. BLizzard has failed to implement good solid systems in MOP. The ilvl inflation does only more dmg than good. They are trying to drag out the content as long as they possibly can. Creating small chances to get better loot is just a way to do that. It also gives them a chance to overtune the content even more for the majority of the playerbase and then point out that 1% of players might get extra lucky and get so good gear that they need to "balance" the raids for that.

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