MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. hanabi12's Avatar
    Best thing blizz did so far this xpac.
  1. Sunlounger's Avatar
    You do realize 25man is a dying breed. There's a lot more competitive 10man guilds then 25 true example Paragon going 10man. This is a really dumb change and doesn't need to me implemented.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    How about... different content for 10 mans and 25 man Blizz ? What? No? Are we getting 5 man raids next then cause its too expensive to make different content for different group size?

    Creating the same content for 10 and 25 mans is damaging the entire game cause it limits the encounters so much. And THATS what killing 25 mans.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunlounger View Post
    You do realize 25man is a dying breed. There's a lot more competitive 10man guilds then 25 true example Paragon going 10man. This is a really dumb change and doesn't need to me implemented.
    You do also realise that Paragon ran many of their main raiders through 25 mans in the first week normals to get RNG on gear droping? Guilds like those can push 5 normal 25 man raids for 10 main characters. 2 characters in each raid - meaning their chance of getting good upgrade in gear is huge based on simple RNG. Get a clue what you are talking about m8. Its all about ilvls.
  1. Ddos's Avatar
    This is a cool idea but 25 does not need any additional loot advantages and it is very hard to compare 25 to 10 man difficulty.

    25 Man is easier on some fight like H Empress (3 tanks makes p2 SUPER easy), H Amber-Shaper (3 tank, enough damage reduction CDs to survive an amber explosion), H Lei Shi (3 tank instead of having a healer taking stacks). 25 man is harder on tank dependent mechanics such as Stone Guards. 25 man also have a HUGE advantage to enrage timers with the ability to reduce healers and larger class stacking opportunities (25 Paragon H Rag, 3 heal and like 10 druids) (25 H Spine of death wing, lots of mages) ( 3 tanking Nef.) etc. etc...

    Keep things how they are and if 10 man is 1% drop rate then 25 should be 2-3% for the thunderforged items. This will keep the overall raid ilvl of 10 and 25 man relatively equal throughout the tier.

    One potential problem with very high % drop rate of the thunderforged items on 25man is specifically centered around competitive 10 man raiding. 10 mans will simply clear all regular modes on 25 man and feed 10-15 select people all the gear(this happens already). This significantly helps with next weeks 10 man heroic progression.

    But what do I know I’m a noob 10 man raider.
  1. rayden54's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DontPanick View Post
    It's still the same boss room as 10 man, you just have 15 more people to cram into it. This by it's very nature increases the difficulty of most encounters (having to keep 5-8 yards from everyone around you becomes a bit more taxing, while staying in range to dps/heal).
    By the same token, the individual responsibility is higher in 10 mans (which is the reason why Blizz made LFR 25-man). I think the two'd end up canceling out a lot. Especially if Blizzard designs the encounters correctly.

    I still don't see why everyone in a raid should be rewarded because the officers and RL did more work.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ddos View Post
    This is a cool idea but 25 does not need any additional loot advantages and it is very hard to compare 25 to 10 man difficulty.

    25 Man is easier on some fight like H Empress (3 tanks makes p2 SUPER easy), H Amber-Shaper (3 tank, enough damage reduction CDs to survive an amber explosion), H Lei Shi (3 tank instead of having a healer taking stacks). 25 man is harder on tank dependent mechanics such as Stone Guards. 25 man also have a HUGE advantage to enrage timers with the ability to reduce healers and larger class stacking opportunities (25 Paragon H Rag, 3 heal and like 10 druids) (25 H Spine of death wing, lots of mages) ( 3 tanking Nef.) etc. etc...

    Keep things how they are and if 10 man is 1% drop rate then 25 should be 2-3% for the thunderforged items. This will keep the overall raid ilvl of 10 and 25 man will be relatively equal throughout the tier.

    One potential problem with very high % drop rate of the thunderforged items on 25man is specifically centered around competitive 10 man raiding. 10 mans will simply clear all regular modes on 25 man and feed 10-15 select people all the gear(this happens already). This significantly helps with next weeks 10 man heroic progression.

    But what do I know I’m a noob 10 man raider.
    No - you are not a nub. The competitive 10 mans did this alot. Blizzard is just creating new gaps between the best and the rest based on ilvls. Like skill wasn't enough. It just means they need to nerf the content more later on when the majority of ppl that lack BOTH the skills AND the gear get stuck.

    The goal for Blizzard should be to make a good solid game progression for MAJORITY of their raiding players. Things like this does exactly the opposite.
  1. Ferrouswheel's Avatar
    Well there you have it. 25m guilds will be able to gear up faster which means 10m raiding will be harder. I will no longer recognize 25m guilds for getting world firsts.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    One more thing that I would like to point out from a 25 man guild leader posting on the US forums.

    See in order to run successful progression oriented 25 man guild you have to maintain a floating roster anywhere between 35 and 40 people to cover the nights things happen, and let's be honest, real life tends to take precedence. In order to keep this roster viable, and this is by the way one of the most time consuming aspects of running the guild, we have to ensure that those people not always in on a progression boss, still have opportunities to get gear. This is so that newer players just joined and maybe on trial, or current members still lacking gear, are able to rotate in to bosses where current members do not need gear.
    As a player that has played 40 to 10 mans - This is really gonna be an issue for bigger groups. Now when fewer players want to step out based on very low RNG chance for better item... and the normal items then being dissed - it will actually be harder than EVER to get a 25 man team together.

    Secondly - this does create some extra stress in the guild when a player that already has the normal item then gets the Thunderforged one and a player that just needed the normal one gets nothing. It somehow very much damages the feeling of pushing together for progression like the current system does.
  1. nemro82's Avatar
    these thunderforged items seems very nice, I agree they wilkl make bosses on farm more interesting. Bigger chance to drop in 25 man? I don't care tbh, at least it's still chance for drop, not giving 25 raiders some ilvl for free.
  1. taximals's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrouswheel View Post
    Well there you have it. 25m guilds will be able to gear up faster which means 10m raiding will be harder. I will no longer recognize 25m guilds for getting world firsts.
    Because its 100% guarenteed each you'll get geared out in Thunderforged items.

    You'll be lucky to have 5 people in the raid during a world first with a piece of that gear unless RNG is kind.

    A 10man world first could get one drop each boss for their world first gearing, where as a 25 may get none for their world first 25.
  1. Kazi's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrouswheel View Post
    Well there you have it. 25m guilds will be able to gear up faster which means 10m raiding will be harder. I will no longer recognize 25m guilds for getting world firsts.
    Top 25 man guilds everywhere are scrambling to try and figure out what they can do to gain back YOUR recognition
  1. araine's Avatar
    the only change that can and will work for 25 man raiding is merge away some 60-80 US servers. And that might be a low estimate of what is needed in regards to merging servers. But it is probably the only solution that isnt going to kill 10man at the price of saving 25man
  1. ripslyme's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Migas11 View Post
    Hello, my name is migas11, my warlockian nickname is Azgraal, i am a 10man raider, been one for years, and i agree with these changes with all my heart.

    It doesn't hurt 10man groups, and has a little change of rewarding 25man groups. I am happy.
    it does HURT them.. 10man already has enough problems with loot
  1. Elemen's Avatar
    I actually don't really understand why 10 and 25 content should be the same. For me, they're completely different things. 10 man guilds can still try pugging 25 or organizing a 25 raid combining 2-3 10 man guilds, and 25 mans can try out 10 man. Then itemize the loots so that if a player wants to get full BiS gear, he has to do both 10 and 25. This way the logistical weakness and the advantage sort of counter each other, as it's typically easier to find a 10 man raid in a 25 man raiding guild then the other way round, though with enough motivation, the latter shouldn't be a problem either, as we've seen in ICC.
  1. Chevelle's Avatar
    As a GM and raidleader of my own 10man guild ... I am disgusted by this. Blizzard dafuq are you doing.
  1. Sfr528's Avatar
    I think the best solution to this whole debacle would be to create completely different raids for 10 and 25 man. The current design is retarded and needs change. Its such a lazy design and inhibits encounter design greatly. I have no doubt in my mind that Blizzard could create dynamic and interesting encounters for 25 and 10 man if they weren't inhibited by creating the same encounters between two completely different experiences. Fact is some encounter designs work well for a group of 10 while others work better for 25...

    I would be perfectly content with 16 raid encounters split evenly between the two formats. I would also love to see 5 mans get raiding zones. I think that could be fun having progression with 4 players, and it would be an easy group to set up as well.
  1. Eats Compost's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrouswheel View Post
    Well there you have it. 25m guilds will be able to gear up faster which means 10m raiding will be harder. I will no longer recognize 25m guilds for getting world firsts.
    10 and 25-man were never equal, and you're delusional if you think they were. No matter what happens, they're doomed to be tuned slightly differently. They should not stand side by side as identical world firsts.
  1. Isotope's Avatar
    This "controversial" change to make more people interested in 25mans has failed before it started. I will explain why.

    Now lets take out the top 10% of the guilds that do 25mans. Your average 25man guilds is probably just now between 3-5/16 heroic. Now ignore the top 10% of 10man guilds and your average is probably somewhere between 6-8/16 heroic. A 10man raider isn't going to leave a guild to join a 25man because of this change cause it will mean massive regression in progression. A 10man GM isn't going to take the time or effort to find 2 other 10man guilds that are near the same progression to merge into his.

    So now who does this help? It helps the average 25man by giving them more gear to carry the dead weight they already have. Your average 25man guild is failing right now because they are lacking quality players as "most" of them are in 10mans. The 10man quality players have the mindset, and it's a good one, of why join a 25man to carry 4-5 people when I don't have to carry anybody as it is now.

    So again this idea has failed before it even started. The only way 25mans will return to what they once were is to make 10 and 25 have different lockouts and make them different encounters. Until then 10man raid teams will continue to crush (in terms of numbers not progression) the 25man raid teams.
  1. Eats Compost's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    This "controversial" change to make more people interested in 25mans has failed before it started. I will explain why.

    Now lets take out the top 10% of the guilds that do 25mans. Your average 25man guilds is probably just now between 3-5/16 heroic. Now ignore the top 10% of 10man guilds and your average is probably somewhere between 6-8/16 heroic. A 10man raider isn't going to leave a guild to join a 25man because of this change cause it will mean massive regression in progression. A 10man GM isn't going to take the time or effort to find 2 other 10man guilds that are near the same progression to merge into his.

    So now who does this help? It helps the average 25man by giving them more gear to carry the dead weight they already have. Your average 25man guild is failing right now because they are lacking quality players as "most" of them are in 10mans. The 10man quality players have the mindset, and it's a good one, of why join a 25man to carry 4-5 people when I don't have to carry anybody as it is now.

    So again this idea has failed before it even started. The only way 25mans will return to what they once were is to make 10 and 25 have different lockouts and make them different encounters. Until then 10man raid teams will continue to crush (in terms of numbers not progression) the 25man raid teams.
    Some things that you've neglected.

    1. It's probably a long-term move. I doubt they expect everyone to switch overnight. If they continue this trend into the next expansion when there's effectively a progression reset, it will have an impact on peoples' decision-making process.
    2. Many guilds have multiple 10-man teams. My own guild is one such example; we actually have 3 10-man teams. Merging multiple 10-man groups (and adding a few people or subtracting a few) is another way to form a 25-man group and preserve progression. This change might mean we're going to merge our groups and get some better loot.

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