MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. Isotope's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Some things that you've neglected.

    1. It's probably a long-term move. I doubt they expect everyone to switch overnight. If they continue this trend into the next expansion when there's effectively a progression reset, it will have an impact on peoples' decision-making process.
    2. Many guilds have multiple 10-man teams. My own guild is one such example; we actually have 3 10-man teams. Merging multiple 10-man groups (and adding a few people or subtracting a few) is another way to form a 25-man group and preserve progression. This change might mean we're going to merge our groups and get some better loot.

    While it could be a long term move they are making it isn't going to have any effect until the next xpac. So why do it now and why not do it at the start of the xpac?

    While many guilds have multiple 10man raid teams, like yours as you said. Do all 3 of your 10mans raid at the same time? If you answer yes then my question is what stopped you from going 25man in the first place.

    You failed to mention that most guilds who have multiple 10man raid teams also don't raid at the same time as each other because of time commitments some members have. Also not all of them have the same progression, so asking some to regress while some do content they aren't ready for is going to be a disaster.
  1. Jantasir's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronnix View Post
    Not sure I like the latest design philosophy, fix lack of content by adding more grind (item upgrades, rare version of items, etc).
    how does this add more grind? killing bosses you would have otherwise killed now gives you the chance at upgraded items instead of strictly shards..
  1. chocobo606's Avatar
    I guess my question is, is item level really the reason people choose 10 mans over 25s? For me, at least when I used to play and raid, I enjoyed 10 mans more because there were no cliques, unfairness, bad officers/gm/players, and it was 10 very close players together. Didn't really care about ilvl, if I could kill the bosses on heroic.
  1. Terielx1's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronnix View Post
    Not sure I like the latest design philosophy, fix lack of content by adding more grind (item upgrades, rare version of items, etc).
    lack of content? what more do you want there's 3 raids, in 5.2 there will be a raid worth 3 raids, challenge mode dungeons, heroics, LFR, pokewow, scenarios, you complain about lack of content but in reality this expansion has released with more content than any before it
  1. Eats Compost's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    While it could be a long term move they are making it isn't going to have any effect until the next xpac. So why do it now and why not do it at the start of the xpac?
    It can still have an effect mid-expansion and, perhaps more importantly, this tells us what to expect so people actually know what's going on before the next expansion. The realistic chance of getting these items and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    While many guilds have multiple 10man raid teams, like yours as you said. Do all 3 of your 10mans raid at the same time? If you answer yes then my question is what stopped you from going 25man in the first place.
    No idea what you're trying to say. If they raid at the same time, that makes merging incredibly easy. It's just that splitting up makes each 10-man block easier to manage, and if people don't show up, you can supplement groups with members of other groups. 10-mans are more flexible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    You failed to mention that most guilds who have multiple 10man raid teams also don't raid at the same time as each other because of time commitments some members have.
    Outright untrue for many, many guilds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    Also not all of them have the same progression, so asking some to regress while some do content they aren't ready for is going to be a disaster.
    Some guilds, yes, some guilds, no. Blizzard's not trying to get everyone into 25-mans. They're trying to get more people into 25-mans, which this change is fantastic for doing.

    Stop acting like there's only one kind of 10-man guild. Some are well-positioned to make the switch and some aren't. This is a great step forward for making 25-mans more desirable.
  1. Sci's Avatar
    Positive comments outweigh the negatives or my imagination? Got to be a first.

    Some 25 players (like myself) raid because we like the experience, simple preference, and it's same for 10's. If the number of 25's is still declining expect that a further step will be taken.

    oh yeah... and for the record. 10's is soft, you're bunch of unchallenged small group pansies and should grow some..rawr
  1. mkultra55's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrouswheel View Post
    Well there you have it. 25m guilds will be able to gear up faster which means 10m raiding will be harder. I will no longer recognize 25m guilds for getting world firsts.
    LOL you mean like it's always been? 25's have ALWAYS geared up faster.

    BTW i think the 25 man progression Guilds will be devasted to know that you no longer recognize their Achievements.
  1. ProfessorTjc's Avatar
    Well I raid in a 10 man guild but I'm still happy for this change. I want to see more 25 man guilds.
  1. Evanon's Avatar
    This is bullshiet not only 25man bosses are easier and on top off that they get 7 items per 25 while in 10 you get only 2 (and if im not wrong it was suposed to be 1 item per 5 players...) but now they even get higher ilvl items more often.
    And for all those 10 man raiders that doesent see this a problem remember the legendary staff from Fl, 25 man raid got 3 or 4 while in 10 you got only 1 in the same time so in the end 25 raids gona have higher ilvl gear and erase any kind off chance for 10 man raids to get world first...
  1. Roflomnom's Avatar
    Hhahahahahahaha. Sucked in 10mans. Loving this change.
  1. tusker's Avatar
    This is a great change, I don't really see what the problem is. I hope they keep this sort of thing in game long-term.
  1. Isotope's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    It can still have an effect mid-expansion and, perhaps more importantly, this tells us what to expect so people actually know what's going on before the next expansion. The realistic chance of getting these items and all that.
    The effect that it will have will be small if any at all. Remember this change is to get MORE GUILDS to raid 25mans. If you're a GM of a 10man guild you have to start now looking for the people and make the change now to a 25man so you sort everything out to be ready for 5.2. Otherwise if you try to do it when 5.2 hits you will fall way behind and the people who were in the 10man will become unhappy as the progression will be a slower pace.

    A change like this would be better suited for an xpac because it gives people ample time 3-5months to build and recruit and start raiding 25s the last month to see who is good and who isn't so you go in ready to go for the xpac.[/QUOTE]





    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    No idea what you're trying to say. If they raid at the same time, that makes merging incredibly easy. It's just that splitting up makes each 10-man block easier to manage, and if people don't show up, you can supplement groups with members of other groups. 10-mans are more flexible.
    I thought it was pretty clear what I was saying. You said you have 3 raid groups in your guild. I asked you if all 3 raid at the same time, and if yes what is stopping you from raiding 25mans if you have 30 people on at the same time raiding the same thing each day.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Outright untrue for many, many guilds.
    On my server there at 60 some raiding guilds and two 25man guilds. Out of all the 10man guilds ZERO that have serveral 10man teams raid at the same time. Why you think that "Many, many guilds" who have multiple raid teams all raid at the same exact time is beyond illogical.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Some guilds, yes, some guilds, no. Blizzard's not trying to get everyone into 25-mans. They're trying to get more people into 25-mans, which this change is fantastic for doing.
    This won't get more people into 25mans as you would need more 25man guilds. This change won't all of the sudden make more 25man guilds. More people mean nothing if you don't have the guilds to support it. It just means that 25man guilds will have a bigger bench, which means the same amount of people will be raiding.

    People aren't going to leave a 10man guild to join a less progressed 25man guild because of a higher chance at a piece of loot that is 6ilvl higher. Majority of the people raid for clearing content not the gear it drops.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Stop acting like there's only one kind of 10-man guild. Some are well-positioned to make the switch and some aren't. This is a great step forward for making 25-mans more desirable.
    I never at all acted like there was only one type of 10man guild. However you're living in a dream world if you think that all these guilds that have many 10man raid teams are going to swap to 25man a thrive. You may make the change but after a month or two you will be back to 10mans. RL and GM will get tired of having to deal with so many people and the "chance" at a piece of gear that is 6ilvl higher isn't going to be worth the effort.
  1. Eats Compost's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    The effect that it will have will be small if any at all. Remember this change is to get MORE GUILDS to raid 25mans. If you're a GM of a 10man guild you have to start now looking for the people and make the change now to a 25man so you sort everything out to be ready for 5.2. Otherwise if you try to do it when 5.2 hits you will fall way behind and the people who were in the 10man will become unhappy as the progression will be a slower pace.

    A change like this would be better suited for an xpac because it gives people ample time 3-5months to build and recruit and start raiding 25s the last month to see who is good and who isn't so you go in ready to go for the xpac.
    It's good to introduce the feature as soon as possible to people become accustomed to it. No-one's expecting everybody to adopt it immediately. We don't even know what the drop rates are like yet. Introducing it with a new expansion is a good time for people to make the actual switch, but a lack of experience and trials with the system would make many reluctant to do so. By the time the next expansion is out, people will have seen the ins and outs of this new system, and will be able to make a more educated call on whether or not they want to do 25-mans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    I thought it was pretty clear what I was saying. You said you have 3 raid groups in your guild. I asked you if all 3 raid at the same time, and if yes what is stopping you from raiding 25mans if you have 30 people on at the same time raiding the same thing each day.
    Because it's easier to manage 2 or 3 10-mans than one 25-man. You can assign leaders for each group and have them keep their own roster, and having 5 people from one group go missing won't affect anyone else in other groups. Right now, given a choice between 10 and 25-mans, 10-mans are just simpler even if you have 25+ people.



    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    On my server there at 60 some raiding guilds and two 25man guilds. Out of all the 10man guilds ZERO that have serveral 10man teams raid at the same time. Why you think that "Many, many guilds" who have multiple raid teams all raid at the same exact time is beyond illogical.
    Then your server is nothing like mine. I'm in a guild with 3 10-man raiding teams and there are plenty more like that. And I'm not talking about a majority, I'm saying that as a raw number of guilds, there are a lot of them that could benefit from this kind of incentive.




    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    This won't get more people into 25mans as you would need more 25man guilds. This change won't all of the sudden make more 25man guilds. More people mean nothing if you don't have the guilds to support it. It just means that 25man guilds will have a bigger bench, which means the same amount of people will be raiding.
    Of course it's not going to spawn a bunch of 25-man guilds immediately. The idea is to add some kind of extra incentive to 25-mans to influence peoples' decisions into the future. Their objective is not "okay, let's get a bunch of people to switch to 25-mans right now", which you seem to think it is. They're going for a gradual change in numbers, nothing dramatic and instant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    People aren't going to leave a 10man guild to join a less progressed 25man guild because of a higher chance at a piece of loot that is 6ilvl higher. Majority of the people raid for clearing content not the gear it drops.
    Blizzard wants more guilds to decide to do 25-man raids, not convince people to join 25-man guilds. You're thinking about this at the wrong end. Many rank-and-file raiders couldn't care less if they raid 10 or 25 right now. It's the leaders and guild management that have a hard time being convinced to do 25-mans.

    As you said, there are only 2 25-man guilds on your server. If tomorrow, I decided I wanted to (as a non-leader) raid 25-mans, that's hard for me because I have limited options. There are few 25-man guilds because they're less convenient to manage from the leaders' perspectives, and offering slightly better gear chances is a way of offsetting that lack of convenience and giving people a reason to organize 25-mans rather than 10-mans.




    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    I never at all acted like there was only one type of 10man guild. However you're living in a dream world if you think that all these guilds that have many 10man raid teams are going to swap to 25man a thrive. You may make the change but after a month or two you will be back to 10mans. RL and GM will get tired of having to deal with so many people and the "chance" at a piece of gear that is 6ilvl higher isn't going to be worth the effort.
    At the moment, the only tiebreaker between a leader deciding to run a 10 or 25-man guild is the convenience factor. In terms of practical matters, nothing else weighs against it. With a gear difference (albeit a slight one) being placed on one side, there's a far better chance of the less convenient option being chosen than there was before, as they now get something in exchange.

    This isn't going to make everyone jump into 25-mans at once but it will likely cause some leaders to make different decisions than they otherwise would, and the system can be tweaked as needed. It's a great move and Blizzard is erring on the side of caution, so as to not recreate another Icecrown scenario. They just want to give people some reason to do 25-mans, not make them the obvious choice for anyone with the numbers.
  1. Zoldor's Avatar
    My server has no 25 man guilds. This will effect me not at all. I think its a waste to try and bate people back to 25 that really don't want to do it. If you have to over compensate for people to do something, they don't really want to do it. Its holding on to the past. I do find the extra ilvl gear more annoying than anything. Fantastic, LFR, Normal, Normal thunderforged, Heroic, Heroic Thunderforged. Two new levels of gear...sweet. Toss some more grind on my grind bro, its not grinding enough to be grindtastic fun. I wish they would have come up with something else...oh and even better heroic thunderforged upgraded for 5.3....smashing good times. There is no BiS there is only Zuul.

    This in now expect 5.2 raid to last a long time. This many levels of gear, they are going to drag this raid out.
  1. Libertarian's Avatar
    So they removed item upgrade (guaranteed) for thunderforged (not guaranteed). Basically the same system.

    This is their way of keeping people subscribed. Pathetic.
  1. serravenger's Avatar
    At the end of the day i dont see why after seeing the logistics of 25 man raiding as opposed to 10 man, why 25 man raiders cant have something of an xtra reward. This is not to say i think the mech's of a fight are harder or easier in one raid to another, but simply getting the player base capable to play together should be a contributing factor towards raiding as well.

    BTW i am a 10 man player simply because i enjoy playing with the smaller grps.
  1. Thehealbus's Avatar
    I don't understand why they couldn't think of any non gear level related changes.
  1. Isotope's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    It's good to introduce the feature as soon as possible to people become accustomed to it. No-one's expecting everybody to adopt it immediately. We don't even know what the drop rates are like yet. Introducing it with a new expansion is a good time for people to make the actual switch, but a lack of experience and trials with the system would make many reluctant to do so. By the time the next expansion is out, people will have seen the ins and outs of this new system, and will be able to make a more educated call on whether or not they want to do 25-mans.
    I don't have the issue with the "extra" loot. I'm sorry if you got that impression. The issue I have is with the fact that they think this will make people feel like 25mans are worth. It doesn't. Our entire raid team was laughing at this because it isn't going to change what we do in any way and we didn't even have to talk about it.

    Like I said people raid for the content. When you can clear content on 10man that is the "same" as 25man it isn't worth doing. Also people need to factor in that in a 10man you almost never have two of the same class. Where as in a 25man you have 4-5 people who need the same gear. So sure it MAY drop the piece you need then you better HOPE that whatever loot system you use favors you that day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Then your server is nothing like mine. I'm in a guild with 3 10-man raiding teams and there are plenty more like that. And I'm not talking about a majority, I'm saying that as a raw number of guilds, there are a lot of them that could benefit from this kind of incentive.
    You're not comprehending what I'm saying. You're making it seem like all these 10man guilds out there have several raid teams that all raid at the same time each day. I'm saying THEY DON'T all raid at the same time. Sure they might share ONE raid day but they aren't raiding at the same time. The reason for this is because people can't all play at the same time.

    So sure you might pick some days and some people might be able to make it but others won't. Now those people have to go find a new raid group while you have to hunt to find people to fill those spots from them leveling. Part of raiding is have a raid time that works for people. This is why 10mans are easier to put together.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Of course it's not going to spawn a bunch of 25-man guilds immediately. The idea is to add some kind of extra incentive to 25-mans to influence peoples' decisions into the future. Their objective is not "okay, let's get a bunch of people to switch to 25-mans right now", which you seem to think it is. They're going for a gradual change in numbers, nothing dramatic and instant.
    While that may be your point the issue is that guilds aren't going to make the move up to 25man till an xpac. It's not worth the hassle to do it mid xpac and a guild on my server tried to do it and they failed hard. They regressed so badly that several of the people left and just made their own guild, and it's now a top 5 guild. The failed 25man guild was a top 5 guild and is now like number 14 and is already back to 10man. Raiders don't like regression and a swap to 25man will bring that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Blizzard wants more guilds to decide to do 25-man raids, not convince people to join 25-man guilds. You're thinking about this at the wrong end. Many rank-and-file raiders couldn't care less if they raid 10 or 25 right now. It's the leaders and guild management that have a hard time being convinced to do 25-mans.
    Many raiders do care that's where you're wrong. Many people enjoy 25mans (I am one of them,) however we know exactly what we don't like about 25mans. The fact that 10mans fix that problem is why we raid 10mans. Giving people a better chance at 6ilvl loot higher in 25mans isn't going to make our dislike for 25mans go away. You're trying to use how you feel and expecting everybody to feel the same way. However every person I've talked to has said the same thing about 10s and 25s...It's easier to put together and there is little to no dead weight in the raid.




    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    As you said, there are only 2 25-man guilds on your server. If tomorrow, I decided I wanted to (as a non-leader) raid 25-mans, that's hard for me because I have limited options. There are few 25-man guilds because they're less convenient to manage from the leaders' perspectives, and offering slightly better gear chances is a way of offsetting that lack of convenience and giving people a reason to organize 25-mans rather than 10-mans.
    If Blizzard really wanted to fix that issue it has nothing to do with 6ilvl of gear. It has to do with servers, to make successful 25man raid guilds you need people. Right now there are a lot of servers that can't support that. So to fix it you need to do a contraction. Take servers and merge them together. It's what the players have been saying for almost a year now.

    Blizzard would see that as the game is dying when in reality it would make the game grow. People quit the game cause they can't find a good raiding group that fits them and they don't want to have to pay money to xfer to another server. So if Blizzard wanted to fix the issue they would do the following:

    Merge servers together to get an average population that is like 20-25% less than what the big servers have. According to WoWprogress Illidan has close to 18,000 level 90 toons. There are servers that have less than 4000. Why not take 3-4 servers that have under 4000 and merge them together? Thus increasing the raiding pool.

    Separate the 10 and 25man lockouts and make 25mans have a higher lvl and not have the same gear. Just like in WotLK.

    Stop giving everybody titles for anything. Give 25mans a realm first title and give 10mans the titles for doing it 10man only gear. See Ulduar.
  1. Barnabas's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Thehealbus View Post
    I don't understand why they couldn't think of any non gear level related changes.
    Because the entire game revolves around gear.
  1. Abyssangel's Avatar
    Perfect solution, I play in a 10 man raiding team and I know that I still might get that thunderforged item , and a player in a 25 man raiding guild knows he might get it faster. So a good solution overall.

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