MMO-Champion - Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. majicarpe's Avatar
    really thanks for this change, it's a really good idea.
    cia 10 man raider ; )
  1. Sarevokcz's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Taiphon View Post
    Worse: Since 25m have 2,5 times more players than 10m, if the droprate is only twice as high, it gives players an incentive to move to 10m.

    If they want to make an impact, give 25m one guaranteed thunderforged drop per boss, and 10m a 10% chance.
    you are assuming this drop will be an "extra" one. I would just assume any item would have a chance to be upgraded. Makes more sense. In which case, if the chance of 1 and 2% were correct, 25mans would have about 9,5% chance of getting atleast one thunderforged piece, while 10mans would have just under 2% of getting atleast one piece. sounds fair.
  1. Bantokar's Avatar
    39 ilvl difference in the same tier. wow.
  1. zox2's Avatar
    I think thunderforged items should take no role in the world 1st race. If blizz turned the feature on after it was over, I'm totally fine with it. 25m already has "better" loot because of how RNG works, but as a primarily 10m raider I don't mind this extra "incentive".
  1. Freia's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
    P.S.- Another thought: Allow registered and verified raiding guild leaders and raid leaders to receive discounts on their monthly subs. 25m GLs/RLs/officers get double the discount.

    Time is money, friend.

    Lol. That would never happen because people would exploit it for the discount.
  1. Firebert's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by BigRagu View Post
    And eventually we will get LFR thunderforged items, just to please the majority...
    Not sure why they haven't put Thunderforged in LFR to begin with, just to keep the raiders in LFR.
  1. thorrion's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by nimryas View Post
    I'm against this change.. You should be playing 25 man because you like playing with 24 other players instead of 9, that is your own effing decision. You should not care about 10 man when you do 25 man, its about you, your fellow guildies and the game. NOT about you and other irrelevant players who, according to you, dont deserve certain kind of items.

    I fucking hate whiny bitches, die in a hellfire pl0x :')
    You are distorting the motives behind that. For example I always preferred 25 man, but now my guild can no longer keep with filling up the ranks (and we're one of the only three 25 man guilds left on the realm) and so we are forced to play 10 man (2x10 in fact). We hate it but it's better than not raiding at all. We are perfectly happy with having the same loot as 10 man guilds do, because we just like 25s for epicness and we have like 15-20 players that would really love to be able to play together. The problem is we don't have enough players with such attitude nowadays, so we welcome the change that would get more people interested in 25s, for whatever reason they've got.

    Personally, I would prefer that 2/2 upgraded items dropped in 25, because that would keep the same ilvl across all raid sizes but offset some 25 management difficulties by reducing the valor grind.

    There are players who like 10s, who like 25s and who don't care. In WotLK those who didn't care used to join the 25 raiding crowd and 10s were forced to play 25s for better loot and achievements. It was bad. Nowadays those who don't care are playing 10s because there are more 10 man guilds and they are generally more successful. And then 25s are dragged down into 10s because they lack players. This is bad too and without an external force the whole system is unstable with a tendency towards 10 man raids..
  1. Felade's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronnix View Post
    Not sure I like the latest design philosophy, fix lack of content by adding more grind (item upgrades, rare version of items, etc).
    Lack of content, really? 16 bosses+all the other stuff to do? Sure, there's a lot of grinding, but then, there's always been grinding in WOW. You can definitely accuse MOP of having a bit too much required content, but I don't think you can hurl "lack of content" at MOP.
  1. Ugum's Avatar
    IMO, there isn't really anything they can do that would ease the pain of organizing 25-30 entitled whiners into a raid group. When I raided 40 Man (and helped lead the raids), we had a really great group of people who were easy to work with. This game has fostered a horrible community who feels like they should have everything, right now, for no effort.

    Nothing will fix 25 Man raiding until the community fixes itself so the Raid Leaders and Officers don't have to deal with the majority of d-bags that play this game.
  1. Songbreeze's Avatar
    For many 25 man raiding guilds this change is to little to late. My guild, for example, just a couple weeks ago stepped down to 10 man because we had to many new recruits who couldn't handle basic raid mechanics and we just weren't getting enough new applications to replace them. So this change does nothing to fix our problem which is the result of both a low Alliance population on our server, and the fact that it is easier to be a competitive progression guild in 10 man than it is in 25. It simply isn't worth the effort.

    In my opinion, this change isn't any different than the current loot system. You already get the same gear in 10 and 25 man raids. However, the only key difference is that you get more loot in 25 man. Okay, so we get Thunderforged gear in both 10 and 25, but it just drops more often in 25. In my mind I can see just as many people in a 10 man raid, percentage-wise, getting Thunderforged gear as a 25 man raid. 10 man guilds might whine about "getting slapped in the face" as Blizzard says, but you know what people who do 25 man raids deserve something for the extra time and effort they put into raiding. Everyone wants their rewards to match their effort and I think we can all agree on that point.
  1. Firebert's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Songbreeze View Post
    we had to many new recruits who couldn't handle basic raid mechanics and we just weren't getting enough new applications to replace them.
    Or your guild failed to train new recruits and just decided to kick them instead.

    Another 25 man too harsh on new players.
  1. Songbreeze's Avatar
    Or your guild failed to train new recruits and just decided to kick them instead.
    How do you "train" people not to stand in wind bombs? I would think that's raiding 101. But I would be delighted to hear your ideas.
  1. Eiwo's Avatar
    gaaaaaaaaaaaay
  1. Forgottenone's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Or your guild failed to train new recruits and just decided to kick them instead.

    Another 25 man too harsh on new players.
    The only way to train is to let them experience it a few times. Dodging something such as a wind bomb or the electric circles on Elegon only takes 1-2 attempts to learn because of how basic they are. It is like trying to "train" people to dodge Ragnaros lava traps, uh big red circle don't stand near. If they fail at that a few times you really think they will grasp the mechanics that are significantly harder?
  1. Firebert's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgottenone View Post
    The only way to train is to let them experience it a few times. Dodging something such as a wind bomb or the electric circles on Elegon only takes 1-2 attempts to learn because of how basic they are. It is like trying to "train" people to dodge Ragnaros lava traps, uh big red circle don't stand near. If they fail at that a few times you really think they will grasp the mechanics that are significantly harder?
    Recruiting some players whose end-game experience has been LFR need more than "1-2 attempts", given that they can stand in anything, DPS anything, heal everything, and tank everything.

    With no 10-man step-up-to-25 guilds any more (due to how LFR's achievement is effectively worthless, and also how raiding guilds have stricter rules on who they take since merging), the average player's raiding skill has been reduced.

    I'd much rather stick with a guild that had a consistent (or rotating) raid team that constantly failed, than a guild that kicked anyone for failing on bombs "1-2 times".
  1. judgementofantonidas's Avatar
    If there is a higher drop chance for more beneficial gear the 25 man content should have increased difficulty, which it currently does not, to reflect why it should benefit from better drops. Much like during wrath. The premier raiders raided 25 man, 25 man dropped the premier gear, and 25 man took the most amount of effort.
  1. Freia's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Songbreeze View Post
    For many 25 man raiding guilds this change is to little to late. My guild, for example, just a couple weeks ago stepped down to 10 man because we had to many new recruits who couldn't handle basic raid mechanics and we just weren't getting enough new applications to replace them. So this change does nothing to fix our problem which is the result of both a low Alliance population on our server, and the fact that it is easier to be a competitive progression guild in 10 man than it is in 25. It simply isn't worth the effort.

    In my opinion, this change isn't any different than the current loot system. You already get the same gear in 10 and 25 man raids. However, the only key difference is that you get more loot in 25 man. Okay, so we get Thunderforged gear in both 10 and 25, but it just drops more often in 25. In my mind I can see just as many people in a 10 man raid, percentage-wise, getting Thunderforged gear as a 25 man raid. 10 man guilds might whine about "getting slapped in the face" as Blizzard says, but you know what people who do 25 man raids deserve something for the extra time and effort they put into raiding. Everyone wants their rewards to match their effort and I think we can all agree on that point.

    That problem isn't completely because they implemented the shared lockouts. They would fix a lot of issues with 25m if they actually did server merges and helped low population servers. If you want to do 25ms you pretty much have to go to high pop servers like Illidan, A52, stormrage, etc. Guilds on low pop servers just can not keep up a 25m roster most of the time. Blizzard themselves are helping to kill 25m by refusing to do server merges and closing down low pop servers. CRZ wasn't the answer, this isn't the answer, they just trying to delay fixing the issues.
  1. Wycked's Avatar
    Ultimate solution fir the 10/25 dilemma. Get better at the game. 16/16 heroic main on 25m. 16/16h alt on 10m. 25's require more coordination, and more personal awareness. This isn't a debate, it's not a topic of discussion it's a fact. Decent 10 mans exist solely because people know that finding 25 relatively equally skilled players is a hell of a lot harder than 10. Stop pretending they require = skill simply because bliss made the ilvl's the same after icc. When you accept that fact, giving them better rewards for more difficult content makes sence. Quit bitching, get better and raid 25
  1. Firebert's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Wycked View Post
    Quit bitching, get better and raid 25
    There's no community framework for 25-man any more. Blizzard have resorted to giving 25-man raiders slightly more carrots.
  1. emanresu's Avatar
    Keep that subscription treadmill going Blizzard.

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