Patch 5.2 Rep Changes, No New Sha-Touched Weapons, Item Levels, Blue Posts, TCG Art

"Damage Reduction Considered for Dueling, What Mob Density Options Would You Like?, Multiboxing - Legal or Not?, Poll: Are You Going to Use Dueling?

Patch 5.2 - Reputation Changes
Along with the new Work Orders, Patch 5.2 will allow you to earn 750 reputation from the first heroic and 325 reputation from the first scenario of the day!


Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
1) is the championing rep a flat rep you get at the end that's comparable to what you would get from doing all dailies that day?
Currently, the reputation for your first heroic is 750 and 325 for your first scenario.

2) does the dailies faction have reputation rewards as well? and are those intended as a sort of catchup for new players/alts?
The new dailies faction doesn't have any valor items.

3) if the valor rep is related to the raid (most likely it is), can you also get it through LFR?
The developers don't want fresh 90s to skip previous content and jump into the newest, so you'll still need 480 item level, but all the changes introduced to previous content will definitely help catch up quicker (lower prices, higher drop chance...)

Also, the valor reputation can be earned through the Raid Finder too but you need to kill bosses to get beyond a certain threshold. So we probably won't see something like the old Icecrown Citadel reputation runs.

But only for old factions (5.0, 5.1), or not?
In order to use the Work Orders in Sunsong Ranch, you need to be exalted with The Tiillers and all plots unlocked, but it's not required to own Sunsong. Work orders will be available for most 5.0/5.1 factions, but it will most likely not include Black Prince.

Patch 5.2 - No New Sha-Touched Weapons
Unfortunately it seems that some people missed that the Patch 5.2 Raid Gear Preview yesterday was not the final gear, and that much of it is placeholder items with placeholder stats. (Such as this Strength and Spirit tanking mace).
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
You're really best off sticking to information actually contained in our patch notes or other official channels of communication if you're looking to avoid confusion.

There are no more Sha-Touched weapons forthcoming. If you've been diligent about helping Wrathion and continue to do so, your reward in 5.2 is going to be a legendary meta-gem that can go in any helmet.

Patch 5.2 Raid Gear Item Levels
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Ion "Watcher" Hazzikostas saw this thread, and wanted share his thoughts on some of the issues you guys have raised:

We think it’s worth noting that many players began their Mists of Pandaria raiding experience with an average item level in the low 460s. Over the course of the past four months, Heroic raiders have seen their average item level climb by as much as 50, while normal mode raid groups that are just getting to Sha of Fear for the first time likely have an average item level that compares to what the cutting-edge guilds had when conquering Heroic Heart of Fear. Getting raid loot along the way has likely felt like a meaningful progression, and the overall damage and healing output of a raid group grows measurably from week to week with each piece of gear looted from a defeated boss. We like that, and we want Throne of Thunder to give players a similar sense of progression.

We could have taken an alternative, more conservative approach, where Throne of Thunder Raid Finder awarded ilvl 496 items and Normal awarded 509 items. A guild that has only done the current normal mode raids, but no Heroics, will then walk into Throne of Thunder with an average item level around 500 (lots of 496 items from Heart of Fear and Terrace, some of them upgraded to 504 with Valor). That doesn’t leave much room to grow – it means that players would only be a few percent stronger when facing Lei Shen at the end of the instance than they were facing Jin’rokh at the start. It also means that when raiders run into a roadblock halfway through the raid, there wouldn’t be much hope that a bit more gear from the next clear would have a significant impact.

Ultimately, we think that raid progression works better, and is more compelling, when there are meaningful increases in power from gear. The effort of downing a boss for the first time is properly rewarded with loot that is attractive to all members of the raid, and the steady increase in player power over the course of progressing through an instance allows us to scale the challenge accordingly. For example, we can now design Lei Shen around the expectation that the average raid group that reaches him will have an item level of nearly 520. The cutting-edge groups that tear through the zone in the first week or two will be comparatively undergeared when they reach him. Without any other changes on our end, item progression means that the same encounter can pose a stern test to a top guild when 5.2 comes out, while still being doable by the groups that only reach the same encounter a couple of months down the line. For example, Heroic Gara’jal was a brutal test of DPS for raiders who faced him last October, but now he feels like part of a smooth progression for groups that are just graduating from normal modes and beginning Heroics.

We’re confident that our planned item levels are not going to skew class balance or degenerate gameplay, and we’re monitoring the performance of all classes and specs in the new gear that will be available in 5.2 and going forward. Stat “inflation” was probably most out of control during the Wrath of the Lich King, but that was an issue with how powerful the gear was that was available as the expansion began perhaps more than any other factor. As a point of comparison, the item level 213 warrior set breastplate that was available in Naxxramas gave a level 80 player 2% critical strike chance; the item level 496 warrior set breastplate available in Heart of Fear gives 1.32% critical strike chance. We’ve learned from the past and carefully left ourselves a lot more room to grow this time around.

Normal raiders now, would have normal Throne gear, not lfr, I don't see why you're comparing Normal Ilevel -> LFR Ilevel.
If I'm not missing something, I don't think he was. He's comparing 5.0/5.1 normal mode gear to 5.2 normal mode gear.

This, really can't believe Blizz still force raiders into LFR to stay competitive, WE DON'T LIKE IT.
It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder? Players wearing normal mode gear might find some slight upgrades in the Raid Finder in the first few weeks, but it's a safe bet that any gear that was upgraded with Valor Points will probably beat anything found in the Throne of Thunder Raid Finder.

PTR Class and Set Bonus Issues
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
We use PTR as a time of iteration to try out a lot of changes and see which ones work out or not. We think the time has come to revert some of the PvP nerfs that we made for noble reasons, but which aren't working out. Specifically, we wanted to remove blanket Silence and shift the game back more towards casting and interrupts. We think the continual arms race between instant spells, Silence and Silence immunity isn't good for the long term health of PvP. It is a shift we still plan to make, but we don't think patch 5.2 is the right time to make it. There are a great deal of instant spells and we don't think it is fair or reasonable to remove them all and force so many players (many of whom might not even participate in PvP) to re-learn their class mid-expansion.

Warlock (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
- We are reverting the removal of Spell Lock.

Mage (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
- We are reverting the removal of Improved Counterspell.

Druid (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
- We are reverting Cyclone having shared diminishing returns with other forms of crowd control. While we are keeping the cooldown of Cyclone cast by Feral druids in order to make Predatory Swiftness CC less dominant, we are lowering the cooldown to 20 sec from 30 sec.

Monk (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
Ring of Peace has been adjusted. It now forms a sanctuary around the friendly target, causing enemies within 8 yards to be disarmed and causes enemies who cast a harmful spell to be silenced for 3 sec. Moving out of the ring does not remove the silence, but it won't trigger again. The duration of Ring of Peace is 8 sec.

I also want to reiterate that we see very little PvP participation during the PTR. This isn't really too surprising since it takes a sizable time commitment and a Critical Mass of skilled players to really generate good Arena or BG testing. (By contrast, guilds trying out the new raid encounters gives us a lot of PvE testing.) We're not blaming anyone - PvP is just hard to measure until it gets into the "real world," so we are even more dependent on player feedback. Unfortunately, PvP feedback is even more subjective than PvE feedback for a number of reasons, including the lack of meaningful meters, the challenge of keeping in mind the evolving tapestry of changes to all classes, and of course the very human tendency that makes it easy for some players to be quick to take credit for their victories and quick to blame their class for their defeats.

This just means PvP balance is always going to take a lot of iteration. We appreciate your patience and all of the good feedback that we get.

We can't test PVP on the PTR because you disabled queueing for battlegrounds and didn't give premades PVP gear.
There are currently some bugs preventing BG queuing from working on the PTR, but I've been through enough of these PTRs to predict that even once those bugs are fixed, we'll see very few players participating. We have occasionally tried "BGs with the blues" and similar tactics, and maybe there are some other ways to encourage or even reward participation that we could consider.

If you do participate and share your feedback with us, then you are our hero. On the other hand, we still do get a lot of good feedback based on patch notes / upcoming changes posts. That is part of the patch development process as well.

We still plan on making it easy to try out the PvP and PvE gear on PTR once those items are built and relatively bug free.

GC gives in again to the demands of bad players. Relearn their class... lol!!!! How is waiting until you see a cast then pressing a button relearning your class. WEAK EXCUSE!
If you played a Holy paladin and found your Holy Shock had a longer cooldown, and found Word of Glory had been replaced with (making this up) "Phrase of Glory" with a 2.5 sec cast time, and found that Devotion Aura no longer prevented player Silence, you might find yourself a little disoriented. Those are the kinds of changes we think would be necessary to allow interrupts to sufficiently serve as a counter to healing at this point in time.

While it might seem impossible to the forum-posting contingent of our player base, we lose more players to frustration at constant class design changes than we do to perceived balance problems. We have to keep that in mind when considering any changes, even those that are ultimately better for the game in the long run.

Paladin (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
We knew haste would be attractive to Protection when we gave them Sanctity of Battle, which only Retribution had previously. That's why we gave them Sanctity of Battle. Even if you have a tanking set with no haste, there are haste buffs in the game. We wanted all the tanks to benefit somewhat from what were traditionally DPS stats, since part of the active mitigation design was to make tanks care more about hitting things with sword (and claws). It only gets to be a problem, as I said previously, if dodge and parry (which are going to be on some gear) are perceived as pointless. (They aren't pointless, but that's really beside the point at this stage.) We aren't going to reitemize every plate piece in the game to remove dodge and parry. We also don't want to nerf haste for paladins, because it is fun, and for the most part working as intended. We don't have a solution yet that we're willing to share, but that's the intent. I state all this, because I feel like this already long thread has become a bit too dominated by this one topic in the past few pages.

I have to agree with an earlier post about how this game should be about bringing out a good product and making it a good game. It seems more and more the justification for changes (or not making changes in this case) is the number of subs that will be lost.
This is pretty off-topic, but I'll address it anyway. Making good games is about keeping players engaged, about their having fun, their being happy.

Any game designer worth their salt wants players to love their game. That's why you choose this business. Yes, we all need to put bread on the table at the end of the day, but there are hundreds of careers that can deliver on that. We chose this one because we like games.

Now WoW is blessed with a whole lot of players. Unsurprisingly, those players like different things. The forum community is very self-selecting and generally a lot more hardcore than it realizes. You guys are really important to us. You care about the game deeply. You help us improve it just because you want it to be better. There's even a business angle - you evangelize the game to others. Everyone wins.

But making a change to the game - any kind of change, even a great change - carries with it a certain amount of risk. I can almost guarantee that someone out there will hate any change we make. If enough players dislike a change, then there is a chunk of the community that is unhappy. Sometimes we make tough decisions that are unpopular at the time, usually because we think the long term benefits are worth it and players may just not fully appreciate those in the short term. But overall, we want players to be happy. It's not a vote or a poll or anything and we're not about to turn over steering the ship to the community. But keeping players happy matters.

Consider the opposite: what kind of responses do you think we'd be seeing if I posted things like "We don't care if you like it or not, we're making this change," or "We don't care how many players we alienate - this is the way it's going to be." That would be a terrible way to keep players happy. So all I'm asking is don't beat us up for caring about the impact that our decisions make on the whole player base, not just the minority who post.

Are you on some sort of cheap drug when you make choices. Tanks care about these things dodge parry block armor HP. Thats all that should matter. It has always been this way in every game ever made. It is the D & D way and the correct way. When you take this focus away you lose your ability to be a lead developer and deserve to be removed from the team.
The answer to your first question is yes. My answer to the rest is: have you seen all of the paladins begging us not to change the way haste works for them because it is both useful and fun? Are they all wrong too? Nah, never mind, don't answer that.

Either you need find a way to better weed out the bad feedback or your team needs better personal understanding of PvP. Patch 5.0 warriors were IMO worse than S5 DK's.
But do you see all of the warriors claiming that they are just fine now and have been over-nerfed for 5.2? Sure, it's easy just to dismiss them as wrong, but how do we know? How should we know during MoP development when warriors were coming off a bad Cataclysm season and begging for buffs? With 20/20 hindsight, I'll totally agree that we overdid it. How to ensure that we don't get it wrong next time? We'll keep listening to players and discussing their feedback. For PvP particularly, that's really the only way I know of to get things feeling right.

If anyone out there can provide the definitive list of players who are nearly always right, please let me know.

Some of us feel that making PvP better should be an extremely high priority even at the expense of some players feeling a bit confused when logging in after a patch.
Totally reasonable. Some players feel like more pet battle content is an extremely high priority. It's even possible there are more of them than there are PvP players. (I have no idea off the top of my head.) I would hope by the sheer number of PvP-oriented changes we've pushed and the number of conversations we've had that it's a priority, but I get that these things are subjective.

So you have no problems making warriors or shaman relearn their class mechanics mid-expansion?
No, we have a huge problem with it. It sucks and it's ultimately our fault. On the other hand, it doesn't seem fair to make other players live with overpowered specs because of our mistake. (This applies to PvE too by the way, where it's not okay for someone to be overpowered even if you aren't trying to kill each other.)

And this reasoning right here is why my account is canceled as of the 28th.
I'm sorry that you cancelled your account. I am even sorrier that you cancelled for a change we didn't make and stated we didn't want to make (removing haste gameplay from paladins). There may be a lesson in there about making decisions in the heat of the moment.

In 5.2, no healer will be able to live through the opener of a Mage/Rogue/X comp, blanket silence, instant CC and stuns will just make those 2 classes very strong together for another combination of classes to combat.
That's a healer point of view, and I get that, but from the warlock or mage point of view, it was going to be impossible to ever kill anyone because the healer can't be interrupted with all of those instant heals and a Silence-prevention cooldown on top of that. I'm just pointing out there are two sides to the argument, and it's not fair to just claim that you're right and they're wrong.

The reality is that moving more towards the 'interrupt heals, don't prevent them' paradigm would be wonderful. But a huge amount of changes to a great many classes need to be made to make that possible. 5.2 just isn't the time for that. I don't even think it's realistic this expansion, but I'll be they'll try.
Yeah, exactly, and we could even make the time, but we'd be scared of the huge number of changes it would take to get there. We're also concerned that some players might not even like the PvP style that we ended up with. We get requests constantly for dispel protection, impossible to counter abilities, stuff that works while CC'd and immunities to various mechanics. Those are all in the opposite direction of where we think PvP needs to go, so we have to factor in player response to all of that and leave even more design time and space for iteration.

Posts like this really bother me. Scared to even read this thread.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I don't post much on forums anymore. Some players aren't here for a discussion. They just like to lob grenades. (The other reasons are that I don't have the bandwidth to address really long posts, even if they are well-reasoned, and that I can't communicate with anyone outside of the US here.)

If you somehow feel the energy cost is fair, what if we could Maim any target? Rather than only our combo target? Kinda of like having Redirect built into Maim? Or convert Maim into a bleed, so it ignores armor and scales with Mastery? Or make it so does extra damage if the target is immune to stuns?
The Redirect is part of what we're trying to get away from with the PS + Cyclone. It just feels like you can't counter or even predict it. We like trying to boost Maim as well because it gives druids another type of CC, but one that does take some build up and has a real cost. That's the same kind of gameplay I'm trying to advocate above: full of counters.

The problem with Feral movement speed is that they could get up to 215% speed or something like that. Yet there is no good way in the game to explain what stacks with what, so you'd have to try out mixing and matching boot enchants with Dash or whatever and figure out what worked. It was recreating the whole crazy CC DR matrix problem, which is hardly a design worthy of emulation.

I saw Bashiok post about Balance and I thought about posting something in there, but no, I'm going to continue harrasking here: Are you folks playing balance on the dev team? Do you have enough people playing on PTR? Do I need to find some time to help folks like Owlcapwn test so our cries can still be ignored?
If I could ask one thing of you guys as a community, try and tone back the "ignored and neglected" talk. None of the classes are specs are neglected by the design team. I just don't have the bandwidth (as I said above) to address each concern, even the very eloquent ones, even the ones that may be totally reasonable and accurate. When we want to comment on something, we'll comment. There isn't really a reasonable way to force us to comment on something, so just try and be at peace.

Folks, it's another long weekend, so don't expect updates before Tuesday.

On topic: Blood DK 4 piece design being off is not player perception at this point. Some of my and others posts previous on the matter show math that this bonus on raw numbers is not as good as the previous bonus.
It isn't a goal that every set bonus is exactly the same DPS / healing / survivability every time. We have a goal that we shoot for. Sometimes we overshoot. That doesn't mean every set bonus for the rest of the expansion has to also be over-inflated. Fortunately, the generous primary stats on every item solve the problem where players cling to earlier set bonuses and don't feel like they can upgrade again.

We do reconsider set bonuses that are annoying, too situational or awkward to use, or dramatically underpowered or overpowered. We haven't decided yet if Blood 4pc falls into that category.

- Glorious Tyranny weapon enchant was modified to 400 PvP Power, 200 Resilience, and 50% disarm Duration.

(No melee classes would have used it without the disarm duration.)

Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Patch 5.2 PvP Gear Item Levels
Yes, very much. Your current mal will be a bit better than s13 mal
I don't think it's that cut and dry. If I'm understanding the numbers, 5.1 Malevolent will only be better than 5.2 Malevolent if it's carrying 2/2 item level upgrades (though it will have more stamina).

Currently, the PvP Power and stats on each tier of gear are tuned to ensure that they're the best choice for PvP compared with a PvE equivalent:

Malevolent > LFR gear for PVP.
Tyrannical > normal mode raid gear for PvP.
Elite Tyrannical > Heroic mode raid gear for PvP. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Marked for Death and Rogues
As it stands right now it is the easiest way to set up a 5 point KS and Shadow Dance with full energy.
In 5.2, Marked for Death will be the easiest way to do that. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Removal of LFR Boss Count
If you enter and complete a partial clear you will be given priority for a fresh run the next time you enter the queue, letting you pick up any missed bosses. The 45 Valor for completing that run too isn't a bad deal, either.

Oh boy 45 valor. For wasting probably an hour of our time? Not including the time wasted for the second queue and raid.
I generally find I'm in a 2/3 partial, and when I re-queue to pick up those first two bosses it does not take an hour to down the final boss. Is it taking you an hour to kill a boss?

45 valor for about 15 minutes more of my time is pretty efficient.

he was referring to the hour long queue - he had to queue TWICE for an hour each time to kill all bosses once instead of queue ONCE for an hour to kill all bosses once
Sure, and if we just let people pick and choose raids to join there could be 24 other people dropping group to wait in queue again. There are a few things you can do in the game all by yourself that don't involve other players, and we can try to make sure those really work as a single player experience. Raiding just can't be one of them.

And, taking a step back, LFR continues to offer an exceptional experience and reward for time invested value versus it not existing.

If he saw 2/3 bosses then what would he do? cancel the queue? Well then he has to wait again either way.
Oh, and that.

This presupposes that I have the extra time to actually run two LFRs per week of the same instance... I don't (2+ hours of queue = no). If I decide to queue for LFR (which I no longer do), I want to do a fresh run, period.
And I believe you presuppose you're the only person playing.

Bashiok, you know how much I love watching you work and running LFR, but I've got Azeroth's 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder, and Guilder to frame for it; I'm swamped.
Well I appreciate the quote, at least. But, and don't take this the wrong way, think back to a time not-that-long-ago before LFR existed. How much raid content were you seeing then, how far had you progressed, and what was the time investment? I'm not saying we don't want LFR to be a smooth and pleasant experience, or be accessible, but it's putting 25 people together to let them see, experience, and even get awesome items from end-game content. That is pretty amazing. Automated game systems can only do so much to ensure it's a pleasant experience on the personal terms and whims for every single person.

The point I was shooting for is this: if I choose to take part in PvE content via LFR I don't want to have to run multiple instances (of the same instance) just to see each and every boss, most importantly by sitting in at least two very long DPS queues.
Absolutely. We don't want for you to run the same instance multiple times either. We'd be happy to entertain ideas for how we can put a group of 25 strangers together, who all have different goals, expectations, and time constraints, and see each of them remain until the end regardless of anything else that happens in the raid or in their life (drops, wipes, wife came home, cat peed on foot, etc.). (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Feedback: Jin'rokh the Breaker (10N)
Is this another fight where the debuff isn't going to transfer to pets? Not getting that damage buff for BM pets is unfortunate.
In our next build the benefits from standing in the pool will also apply to your pets. This is based on the player's location, not the pet's location.

I honestly can not fathom how you break the game so hard. How can a Paladins channel spells make everyone in the raid lagg?
Simple: There's a bug in this build that causes some cast-time paladin spells to have bad (negative) heal prediction values, which the UI that displays predicted healing isn't expecting, causing a ton of client lag for everyone that is trying to display those values. This is fixed in the next build. Turning off predictive healing in the UI may help, in the meantime.

Every new patch involves a tremendous number of changes to the game -- both obvious new content like adding new dungeons or outdoor areas and countless behind-the-scenes changes to code, client/server interactions, and so forth. With thousands of such changes, there are unfortunately going to be some bugs, and often some very unexpected ones. Part of the purpose of PTR is to catch as many issues like these as possible, so that they don't make it to the live servers and impact players' experience there.

Thank you, as always, for your patience and for helping test the 5.2 patch. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

New Talent Tree Simplicity
They gave us "variety" by making the choices irrelevant to the game. You have freedom to choose, because your choice is meaningless. How is this an improvement?

I'm not sure you've actually looked at the new talents.

The are doing the same thing with glyphs. The top tier was removed completely. Many of the best or "mathematically superior choices" have been removed and added to your rotation as baseline skills. Minor glyphs are now almost nothing but cosmetic changes.
You're upset that you got some glyphs as baseline skills? o.O

With all due respect... have you? As previously stated, only two of my six choices have any meaningful effect at all on my character. And those two choices don't really alter my experience much. Its mostly the choice between a cooldown and a passive ability to improve my DPS. It certainly isn't much of a fun or exciting choice now, is it? Well, I guess that's subjective, but its certainly not fun or exciting for me.

And it is even worse on leveling characters. I honestly am not sure I even have my talents set on some of my lower levels. They are so trivial and unimportant, I completely forget about them. Gone are the days that reaching a new level meant something.
Ah, so if it doesn't flat increase your DPS it's worthless? I think you may want to talk to some other druids on what is useful or not in various situations. Not sure I can argue against that kind of mentality except to say what you're looking for are item stats. If all you want is flat DPS increases, keep gearing up! The rest of us will enjoy employing various talents, and respeccing, to great effect.

I think he meant that he wishes all skill tiers were relevant to both PVE and PVP and not only PVP or PVE
Not all trees are going to be amazing for every situation. We're happy to hear ideas on how we can change a given tree to keep it unique and make it useful in raiding, questing, and pvp.

But did you get excited about that extra 2 percent damage to moonfire? Maybe for a few seconds, but it wasn't that talent point that enabled you to keep going and further your toon, it was the level itself. Sure, every 10-15 levels you got a talent that was really a game changer, but what does that sound like?
To be fair the old trees were successful in making themselves seem meaningful and fun, but yes most of the time they were either meaningless or required. Speccing down a tree by following a guide to maximize DPS wasn't a choice, and if you didn't follow a guide you were spending your talents wrong. Period. With the new trees you have six trees, and on each tree all three options are a variations on a theme, and the choice generally comes down to personal preference or style. That's at least an option that means something to you, to your character, and your identity in the game.

the only time ive used the T1 priest talent is on the last boss in msv. everything else in raiding is immune to thoes talents. so....
What about while you were leveling to 90? Or doing dailies? Or PvPing? Those talents are actually amazing in different ways, and for many different situations. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Content Difficulty Feedback
Do you personally consider that true progress? It baffles me.
Picture a group that is stuck on a boss at 30% hp constantly for, I don't know, two months. They'll definitely consider it progress when they finally move past him, and it's fine. For you that's not true progress because they didn't kill the boss on its hardest version, and it's a valid point of view as well, but that can't be a reason to block people from moving on, particularly if we keep in mind what the developers have seen when this happens: while there are guilds out there that have the will to keep on trying for as long as it's required, it's a rare treat in most other guilds, and they eventually give up.

While many people think they would easily make it into any of the Top 10 world guilds, the truth is most of them aren't.

How would I be able to tell the guys from Paragon (or any other top guilds) that I have accomplished the same thing they did, albeit a bit further down the line, when Blizzard has made that accomplishment 30% easier?
Would you really think you had? The fact you have killed a boss 30% easier doesn't mean you have become Paragon, far from it.

I wish my personal experience was of any use in this case, because from what I've seen, most people in those guilds did feel they had accomplished their personal goal (killing an end boss) but definitely didn't feel they were in the same league as the best guilds in the world. But my sample is terribly limited, so I'm not going to generalize and say that's the case for most guilds in that situation, because it'd be an outright lie.

By your logic, all my opponents in PvP should be nerfed by 30% by the end of each season, because I paid for the game and I want to have a free Gladiator title if LFR players are getting a free "Savior of Azeroth" equivalent of a title.
The Gladiator title is specifically tied to the 0.5% best players on a PVP season, so it's not the same thing. There's nothing that specifies "the Heroic end boss of a raid tier is meant to be killed only by the 0.5% best raiders of the tier", and we're talking, in any case, about something that happened on a different moment and on a different environment. WoWProgress shows Heroic Madness was defeated by around 14k+ guilds worldwide, sure, it looks like a lot, but the raid was available for almost a whole year. Fast forward to today, and this same website indicates that 260 guilds have killed Sha of Fear in Heroic (and they are getting as well the "Cutting Edge" achievement. So, if at any point the boss is nerfed, and the criteria is no longer met, they would be able to show that achievement to prove they did it without any nerfs.

Times have definitely changed in that regard (in my opinion, of course).

I am self mainly motivated by new boss kills and I do not mind really what other raiders kill or do. I have my own speed, pace and so on. I do not mind if 10 other DK's wear gear as I do, when they do content I do. Makes sense, yes ? However I roll eyes, when see that AFK guy in LFR run around with almost identical gear as I do. Without transmog feature you barely would make difference between me and the AFK-Hero, who does most cases 25k dps if not less.
The diference is that your AFK hero is wearing gear that is 26 item levels lower than yours and doesn't have stuff you do, such as vanity rewards (Glory of the Pandaria Raider and Guild Glory of the Pandaria Raider come to mind as an example).

Also, if you fancy doing challenge modes, it's very likely your AFK hero won't have the transmoggable set of gear you can get access to either.

Do not be too upset on me. You are talking to the player, who did not quit after 5 weeks of Kael'thas wipes on bench, nor 6 weeks of mu'rus wipes. And I lived trough 15-20 minute Nefarian respawn timer on vanilla, as well the complete hilarious wipe fest of Firefighter, Shadowtraps on Lich King and I sm sure am not scared of tsulong or Sha of Fear (which I believe might be block my team for a while). I am not a top raider even. I am just one of those 'raiding masses' - average Joe's of HC raiding, if you will.
You may not be a top raider in some community world ranking. Your dedication is certainly rare among players though. If you track back to M'uru, you'll probably remember that guilds were falling apart before reaching 6 weeks of wipes on him and Kael'thas was seen by many as a massive hurdle. So even if your progress spells "average Joe's of HC raiding" the fact is, when it comes to dedication, you have plenty of it, and hopefully your guild does too.

nice way to put majority of the wow population these days are spoiled little brats with no brain, its true tho. Sad part is that this CM here wanna turn this game into a console game. Im just curious if this is how blizzard as a company sees it or just this guy? if so what future we can expect from wow? will we be able to play it on x-box soon with pause buttom and cheat codes?
Oh, please, don't try to hyperbole my posts. Toning something down eventually so more people can complete it doesn't mean turning the game into a "console game", which, in the other hand, is a weird comparison, since there're plenty of challenging console games out there. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

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This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 Rep Changes, No New Sha-Touched Weapons, Item Levels, Blue Posts, TCG Art started by chaud View original post
Published on 2013-01-26 11:15 AM
87 Comments
Comments 87 Comments
  1. Self Inflicted Wounds's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by lewisderp View Post
    This is a forum, it's probably not encouraging if you dismiss peoples concerns because they are "too negative"
    Its really just a "half empty" type of thing. You can criticize without being crazy negative. "BLIZZARD FORCES US INTO DAILIES!!! WAHHHH" is negative compared to " I dislike the current daily system, its a huge time sink and not very fun, please change it"
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Again, when your whole motivation for this game is gear gear gear, then you become a whiny baby when trying to "give feedback"
    And again - My motivation has nothing to do with gear. It has to do with good solid game systems that work to balance the game on as many fronts as possible. Be that with role balance, class balance, and the other core systems in the game that rewards players for playing the game.

    Many of the systems in MOP have been focused on DPS. Having many dailies at start will always hurt the Tank and Healing numbers. Thats why it was a mistake from BLizzard. Then we saw features like Brawlers guild - balanced again only around DPS - and high dps. Another reason for majority to the player base to focus on DPS specs. Then we have the upgrade systems that pushes ppl to play just one spec (role) and players that deside to play more than 1 role suffer grately cause they will always be up to 20 ilvls behind. So even players that wanted to play tanks and healers - are in the end forced to play as DPS if they want to take part in the content.

    This is just one simple example. It shows the total lack of understanding from Blizzard to maintain good solid core balance to the game. Cause if you do not have good core role balance for PVE content - then the core of the entire game, the part that has made WOW what it is - becomes far worse. And it pushes more and more players away. Even those DPS that Blizzard were trying to add content for when they end up in up to hour long Qs in LFR - just for example.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 01:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Its really just a "half empty" type of thing. You can criticize without being crazy negative. "BLIZZARD FORCES US INTO DAILIES!!! WAHHHH" is negative compared to " I dislike the current daily system, its a huge time sink and not very fun, please change it"
    The critic about the dailies is exactly what it is. Critic. When progress in the game is based on doing one type of content for rewards then the core of what BLizzard said at the start of this expansion is simply not true. They said they wanted to give players more options on how to play. They simply did not.

    And so I continue my talk about role balance. Removing tabards for getting rep in dungeons yet again made tanks and healers suffer. Keeping tabards and giving out lower rep gains (just for bosses and max possible gain per day) would have been the TRUE way of giving players options. And for many it would have been more enjoyable way of gaining rep since it at least involves some co-op and social aspects over running solo dailies.
  1. mmoc58912c4cac's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Its really just a "half empty" type of thing. You can criticize without being crazy negative. "BLIZZARD FORCES US INTO DAILIES!!! WAHHHH" is negative compared to " I dislike the current daily system, its a huge time sink and not very fun, please change it"
    You are saying that this:

    Those that have quit did so for a reason. Some of us actually want the game to improve but Blizzard are just going the totally wrong way about it.

    It doesn't take a genius to see the disaster incoming. Just take a quick look over the spells and how gear scales with it. Then look at the healers that were "balanced" based mostly on mana starving in 5.0 and 5.2 that now will have more mana to use the more powerfull spells. Thing is... only some classes have those abilites while others don't.

    Best way to go for Blizzard is to revert to the old balanced ilvl and focus on good content. Sadly they can not do it cause the core systems in start of MOP were so bad that they can't make it through this expansion without changing them.
    is equal to:

    BLIZZARD FORCES US INTO DAILIES!!! WAHHHH
    ?
  1. mmoc1eac56a8df's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    And again - My motivation has nothing to do with gear. It has to do with good solid game systems that work to balance the game on as many fronts as possible. Be that with role balance, class balance, and the other core systems in the game that rewards players for playing the game.

    Many of the systems in MOP have been focused on DPS. Having many dailies at start will always hurt the Tank and Healing numbers. Thats why it was a mistake from BLizzard. Then we saw features like Brawlers guild - balanced again only around DPS - and high dps. Another reason for majority to the player base to focus on DPS specs. Then we have the upgrade systems that pushes ppl to play just one spec (role) and players that deside to play more than 1 role suffer grately cause they will always be up to 20 ilvls behind. So even players that wanted to play tanks and healers - are in the end forced to play as DPS if they want to take part in the content.

    This is just one simple example. It shows the total lack of understanding from Blizzard to maintain good solid core balance to the game. Cause if you do not have good core role balance for PVE content - then the core of the entire game, the part that has made WOW what it is - becomes far worse. And it pushes more and more players away. Even those DPS that Blizzard were trying to add content for when they end up in up to hour long Qs in LFR - just for example.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 01:53 PM ----------



    The critic about the dailies is exactly what it is. Critic. When progress in the game is based on doing one type of content for rewards then the core of what BLizzard said at the start of this expansion is simply not true. They said they wanted to give players more options on how to play. They simply did not.

    And so I continue my talk about role balance. Removing tabards for getting rep in dungeons yet again made tanks and healers suffer. Keeping tabards and giving out lower rep gains (just for bosses and max possible gain per day) would have been the TRUE way of giving players options. And for many it would have been more enjoyable way of gaining rep since it at least involves some co-op and social aspects over running solo dailies.
    Excellant points very well made.
  1. Blur4stuff's Avatar
    even with tabards people would complain. they aren't gonna let you get exalted in a day or two, so that either means every kills is really low rep or there is a cap on rep per day and it would still take the same amount of time.

    people want their reward (exalted) now and don't want to wait. so anything that gets in the way of that is going to be labeled as bad game design. a small amount from one dungeon per day and farming rep is a decent idea. there's your variety.
  1. Self Inflicted Wounds's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    And again - My motivation has nothing to do with gear. It has to do with good solid game systems that work to balance the game on as many fronts as possible. Be that with role balance, class balance, and the other core systems in the game that rewards players for playing the game.

    Many of the systems in MOP have been focused on DPS. Having many dailies at start will always hurt the Tank and Healing numbers. Thats why it was a mistake from BLizzard. Then we saw features like Brawlers guild - balanced again only around DPS - and high dps. Another reason for majority to the player base to focus on DPS specs. Then we have the upgrade systems that pushes ppl to play just one spec (role) and players that deside to play more than 1 role suffer grately cause they will always be up to 20 ilvls behind. So even players that wanted to play tanks and healers - are in the end forced to play as DPS if they want to take part in the content.

    This is just one simple example. It shows the total lack of understanding from Blizzard to maintain good solid core balance to the game. Cause if you do not have good core role balance for PVE content - then the core of the entire game, the part that has made WOW what it is - becomes far worse. And it pushes more and more players away. Even those DPS that Blizzard were trying to add content for when they end up in up to hour long Qs in LFR - just for example.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 01:53 PM ----------



    The critic about the dailies is exactly what it is. Critic. When progress in the game is based on doing one type of content for rewards then the core of what BLizzard said at the start of this expansion is simply not true. They said they wanted to give players more options on how to play. They simply did not.

    And so I continue my talk about role balance. Removing tabards for getting rep in dungeons yet again made tanks and healers suffer. Keeping tabards and giving out lower rep gains (just for bosses and max possible gain per day) would have been the TRUE way of giving players options. And for many it would have been more enjoyable way of gaining rep since it at least involves some co-op and social aspects over running solo dailies.
    1. Dailies are not necessary. If you don't like them don't do them.
    2. Dailies have always, and will always be more "anooying" for healers and tanks than for DPS. This is another reason to have a dps spec.
    3. Brawlers Guild is not a necessary part of the game.
    4. The game has always been "easier" when you focus on one role.
    5. You are not forced to play DPS.
    6. You can do many things, like the dailies while in that hour long queue. Its also unlikely to have an "easy fix"
    7. You have very many options.
    8. Taking tabards from the game did not make you suffer as a healer or tank. You can easily group to do them while in your lfr queue.
    9. Dailies are not required to be solo.
    10. You seem to miss my point about incessant whining and real criticism.
    11. If you want the rewards dailies give, do them. If you don't, don't.
    12. There is no "set" progression path. There is one that includes more/better rewards, and that includes doing as many dailies as possible, getting capped on valor etc. You don't have to do them. If they raised the valor cap to 2000, people would complain about being forced to get 2000 valor. But thats not true.

    You guys just have a warped view on what is forced and what isn't. Your argument really just comes down to : I want gear faster. So much whining in this forum really takes away how good and solid this game is, especially when compared to alternatives. The last daily blink really pegs a large amount of the complaints here.

    You can hit 90 and do heroics/quests and craft some gear and hop into LFR. You can move to normals from there. You can hit 90 from dungeons only, then do dailies and go to LFR from there. There are many paths you can do. This game has always been about the most time and effort = more gear. (Save for RNG.) Why you want that to change, or what you want to change it to, I don't know.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 09:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    even with tabards people would complain. they aren't gonna let you get exalted in a day or two, so that either means every kills is really low rep or there is a cap on rep per day and it would still take the same amount of time.

    people want their reward (exalted) now and don't want to wait. so anything that gets in the way of that is going to be labeled as bad game design. a small amount from one dungeon per day and farming rep is a decent idea. there's your variety.
    Agree very much.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    even with tabards people would complain. they aren't gonna let you get exalted in a day or two, so that either means every kills is really low rep or there is a cap on rep per day and it would still take the same amount of time.

    people want their reward (exalted) now and don't want to wait. so anything that gets in the way of that is going to be labeled as bad game design. a small amount from one dungeon per day and farming rep is a decent idea. there's your variety.
    Players want their rep in a day or two because way to much is now gated behind the rep. One item per spec on each faction would make the rep "grind" less of a deal. Thats how it was back in TBC for example. Double gating gear behind both rep and valor like we are seeing in MOP should not really be needed. Its the first time we see this double gated mechanic. It has created alot of extra issues to the game that were not there before. And the only reason Blizzard has given us for making those changes is to "give players something to do so they don't run out of content".

    But thats exactly the critic of this system. Players would still have plenty to do if some of the gear was gated behind rep - and some of it was gated behind valor.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 02:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    1. Dailies are not necessary. If you don't like them don't do them.
    2. Dailies have always, and will always be more "anooying" for healers and tanks than for DPS. This is another reason to have a dps spec.
    3. Brawlers Guild is not a necessary part of the game.
    4. The game has always been "easier" when you focus on one role.
    5. You are not forced to play DPS.
    6. You can do many things, like the dailies while in that hour long queue. Its also unlikely to have an "easy fix"
    7. You have very many options.
    8. Taking tabards from the game did not make you suffer as a healer or tank. You can easily group to do them while in your lfr queue.
    9. Dailies are not required to be solo.
    10. You seem to miss my point about incessant whining and real criticism.
    11. If you want the rewards dailies give, do them. If you don't, don't.
    12. There is no "set" progression path. There is one that includes more/better rewards, and that includes doing as many dailies as possible, getting capped on valor etc. You don't have to do them. If they raised the valor cap to 2000, people would complain about being forced to get 2000 valor. But thats not true.

    You guys just have a warped view on what is forced and what isn't. Your argument really just comes down to : I want gear faster. So much whining in this forum really takes away how good and solid this game is, especially when compared to alternatives. The last daily blink really pegs a large amount of the complaints here.

    You can hit 90 and do heroics/quests and craft some gear and hop into LFR. You can move to normals from there. You can hit 90 from dungeons only, then do dailies and go to LFR from there. There are many paths you can do. This game has always been about the most time and effort = more gear. (Save for RNG.) Why you want that to change, or what you want to change it to, I don't know.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 09:46 AM ----------



    Agree very much.
    Your ignorance baffles me.
    Again - my argument has nothing to do with gear - never has. It has to do with game balance. Dont put words in my mouth plz.

    And about Brawlers guild. Its not a necessary part of the game - its an "optional" thing that punishes 2 out of 3 roles in the game for not updating their dps gear. I used it as an example EXACTLY because it had nothing to do with gear rewards - but was just content that every player should be able to play without focusing on improving their offspec gear if they choose to play as healer or tank. It just proofs your ignorance when you then say that players just want to get their gear right away. It has to do with choice of how player play the game. Just because healers and tanks are a minority group in MOP - and are treated as such, just goes to show the real issues that the game has.
  1. F-Minus's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    Players want their rep in a day or two because way to much is now gated behind the rep. One item per spec on each faction would make the rep "grind" less of a deal. Thats how it was back in TBC for example. Double gating gear behind both rep and valor like we are seeing in MOP should not really be needed. Its the first time we see this double gated mechanic. It has created alot of extra issues to the game that were not there before. And the only reason Blizzard has given us for making those changes is to "give players something to do so they don't run out of content".

    But thats exactly the critic of this system. Players would still have plenty to do if some of the gear was gated behind rep - and some of it was gated behind valor.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 02:56 PM ----------



    Your ignorance baffles me.
    Again - my argument has nothing to do with gear - never has. It has to do with game balance. Dont put words in my mouth plz.

    And about Brawlers guild. Its not a necessary part of the game - its an "optional" thing that punishes 2 out of 3 roles in the game for not updating their dps gear. I used it as an example EXACTLY because it had nothing to do with gear rewards - but was just content that every player should be able to play without focusing on improving their offspec gear if they choose to play as healer or tank. It just proofs your ignorance when you then say that players just want to get their gear right away. It has to do with choice of how player play the game. Just because healers and tanks are a minority group in MOP - and are treated as such, just goes to show the real issues that the game has.
    Look, when you take out every grind out of the game what are you left with?

    Dungeons, Raids, Battleground, Arena and that's it - this is what Cataclysm was, where 95% of server population was hanging out in major cities, logging in for 30 minute a day to queue for a dungeon, and in the end logging 3 times a week in 2 minutes before a raid, get the raid done and log off.

    That is a game I don't want to play anymore, sorry. Mists of Pandaria is way more fun, still, right now, at this point in time Cataclysm was already boring as fuck, with nothing to do.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by F-Minus View Post
    Look, when you take out every grind out of the game what are you left with?

    Dungeons, Raids, Battleground, Arena and that's it - this is what Cataclysm was, where 95% of server population was hanging out in major cities, logging in for 30 minute a day to queue for a dungeon, and in the end logging 3 times a week in 2 minutes before a raid, get the raid done and log off.

    That is a game I don't want to play anymore, sorry. Mists of Pandaria is way more fun, still, right now, at this point in time Cataclysm was already boring as fuck, with nothing to do.
    Cataclysm failed because it lacked content. Adding grind does not add content - it adds reason to grind the content. 8 months of no update on live servers would still make you feel you had nothing to do MOP. Just because BLizzard ignored live server for 8 months in Cata to make it look like MOP had more "content" does only show their lack of respect for subscribers.
  1. borinaria's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Brokeguy View Post
    LFR is horrid at best, im tired of grinding dailies every single day just to get charms that when i use in lfr just gives me more gold which isnt enough to cover the repair cost for wipes. The people in these lfr groups are some of the worst people ive seen with horrible language as well as manners. It takes me almost 7 ques to get a full clear of terrace and hof just for one toon.

    Going back to play league of legends till this &*^# gets fixed. DOUBLE IP WEEKEND!!!!!
    You must have really horrible luck if it takes you 7 tries.
  1. Self Inflicted Wounds's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    Players want their rep in a day or two because way to much is now gated behind the rep. One item per spec on each faction would make the rep "grind" less of a deal. Thats how it was back in TBC for example. Double gating gear behind both rep and valor like we are seeing in MOP should not really be needed. Its the first time we see this double gated mechanic. It has created alot of extra issues to the game that were not there before. And the only reason Blizzard has given us for making those changes is to "give players something to do so they don't run out of content".

    But thats exactly the critic of this system. Players would still have plenty to do if some of the gear was gated behind rep - and some of it was gated behind valor.

    Your ignorance baffles me.
    Again - my argument has nothing to do with gear - never has. It has to do with game balance. Dont put words in my mouth plz.

    And about Brawlers guild. Its not a necessary part of the game - its an "optional" thing that punishes 2 out of 3 roles in the game for not updating their dps gear. I used it as an example EXACTLY because it had nothing to do with gear rewards - but was just content that every player should be able to play without focusing on improving their offspec gear if they choose to play as healer or tank. It just proofs your ignorance when you then say that players just want to get their gear right away. It has to do with choice of how player play the game. Just because healers and tanks are a minority group in MOP - and are treated as such, just goes to show the real issues that the game has.
    Your first paragraph is literally about gear. You just want more gear, faster. So don't try to lie to me =\

    You are not being punished. If you can't do the content as a tank, you have dual spec for a reason. Its extra side content. What don't you get? You have so many options, some you don't feel like using, so you complain.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Your first paragraph is literally about gear. You just want more gear, faster. So don't try to lie to me =\

    You are not being punished. If you can't do the content as a tank, you have dual spec for a reason. Its extra side content. What don't you get? You have so many options, some you don't feel like using, so you complain.
    Same ignorance as before. You lack the understanding on game balance. Just like Blizzard does at this point.
    Mentioning the words items and gear does not mean that I want them. It means that the Blizzard has put overly focus on those rather than making a good solid game where gear isn't everything. And they are increasing this focus even more by adding even more item lvls. And that just creates more balancing issues.

    You dont have a clue. You putting words in ppl's mouth so you can generalize about ever poster here just goes to show that.
  1. Self Inflicted Wounds's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    Same ignorance as before. You lack the understanding on game balance. Just like Blizzard does at this point.
    Mentioning the words items and gear does not mean that I want them. It means that the Blizzard has put overly focus on those rather than making a good solid game where gear isn't everything. And they are increasing this focus even more by adding even more item lvls. And that just creates more balancing issues.

    You dont have a clue. You putting words in ppl's mouth so you can generalize about ever poster here just goes to show that.
    You were literally posting about gear. If you aren't talking about it, why bring it up?

    So everyone, even the highly paid developers, you know, the ones with degrees, that have been running one of the most popular games of all time.. yeah, everyone but you is clueless? I am not putting words in your mouth. If you aren't talking about gear, then what? You complain Blizzard is gating you from something, what is it? OH ITS GEAR. This is a good solid game. Think about the alternatives. Cataclysm really spoiled so much of the player base its sad. You could effortlessly get from level 1-85 and then be in current gear within a day or two.

    There is a good reason Blizzard is doing it this way. They listened to the players too often, Cataclysm happens, people blow through content, have 10 toons at max level with current LFR gear, then whine about not having stuff to do and unsub. This time around, they gate some content so you actually have to login and get out of SW/Org and do stuff, and people whine STILL.

    Again, you have dual spec. if you really want to bark up the "I can't do everything in onl one spec/set" tree, then again, YOU HAVE DUAL SPEC.

    Again, dailies and valor stuff isn't necessary. you can literally get to LFR without it, get LFR gear without it, since we all know thats just a afklootfest nowadays, where 50% of the raid is barely paying attention.
  1. mmoc1eac56a8df's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    1. Dailies are not necessary. If you don't like them don't do them.
    2. Dailies have always, and will always be more "anooying" for healers and tanks than for DPS. This is another reason to have a dps spec.
    3. Brawlers Guild is not a necessary part of the game.
    4. The game has always been "easier" when you focus on one role.
    5. You are not forced to play DPS.
    6. You can do many things, like the dailies while in that hour long queue. Its also unlikely to have an "easy fix"
    7. You have very many options.
    8. Taking tabards from the game did not make you suffer as a healer or tank. You can easily group to do them while in your lfr queue.
    9. Dailies are not required to be solo.
    10. You seem to miss my point about incessant whining and real criticism.
    11. If you want the rewards dailies give, do them. If you don't, don't.
    12. There is no "set" progression path. There is one that includes more/better rewards, and that includes doing as many dailies as possible, getting capped on valor etc. You don't have to do them. If they raised the valor cap to 2000, people would complain about being forced to get 2000 valor. But thats not true.

    You guys just have a warped view on what is forced and what isn't. Your argument really just comes down to : I want gear faster. So much whining in this forum really takes away how good and solid this game is, especially when compared to alternatives. The last daily blink really pegs a large amount of the complaints here.

    You can hit 90 and do heroics/quests and craft some gear and hop into LFR. You can move to normals from there. You can hit 90 from dungeons only, then do dailies and go to LFR from there. There are many paths you can do. This game has always been about the most time and effort = more gear. (Save for RNG.) Why you want that to change, or what you want to change it to, I don't know.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 09:46 AM ----------



    Agree very much.
    In other words, "I dont agree so it cant be true". People are expressing how they feel about the current direction, if you cant understand their motivations - fair enough but you cannot say they are wrong.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    You were literally posting about gear. If you aren't talking about it, why bring it up?

    So everyone, even the highly paid developers, you know, the ones with degrees, that have been running one of the most popular games of all time.. yeah, everyone but you is clueless? I am not putting words in your mouth. If you aren't talking about gear, then what? You complain Blizzard is gating you from something, what is it? OH ITS GEAR. This is a good solid game. Think about the alternatives. Cataclysm really spoiled so much of the player base its sad. You could effortlessly get from level 1-85 and then be in current gear within a day or two.

    There is a good reason Blizzard is doing it this way. They listened to the players too often, Cataclysm happens, people blow through content, have 10 toons at max level with current LFR gear, then whine about not having stuff to do and unsub. This time around, they gate some content so you actually have to login and get out of SW/Org and do stuff, and people whine STILL.

    Again, you have dual spec. if you really want to bark up the "I can't do everything in onl one spec/set" tree, then again, YOU HAVE DUAL SPEC.

    Again, dailies and valor stuff isn't necessary. you can literally get to LFR without it, get LFR gear without it, since we all know thats just a afklootfest nowadays, where 50% of the raid is barely paying attention.
    Dual specs are not just DPS and another role. Many loved to play tank and healer as far back as first dual spec was added.

    I can not help you if you dont understand what Im talking about. Its called balance. If I was talking about gear then I should be delighted to see more ilvls and more gear beeing added in 5.2. Im not - cause it will just create more unbalanced gameplay all around.

    Cataclysm failed because BLizzard yet again left the game without new content for over 8 months. OFC ppl started to play alts... Why should those players not be allowed to point out the unfriendly alt nature of MOP when BLizzard offered nothing else in cata than rolling alts ? Oh wait... those players must be whining now. It can't be Blizzard that failed to support their game .. not only in CATA -but also now in MOP for those players that stuck with Cata by playing alts. No way !!

    Yes.. they are all just whiners that think about gear. Keep on generalizing about the WOW community. It just shows your ignorance.
  1. Runeweaver's Avatar
    Rep from Heroics and Scenarios? Yes!
  1. mmoc0b3907cfd9's Avatar
    now they come with rep from heroics when i got every mop rep to exalted?
  1. Ausr's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duster505 View Post
    Dual specs are not just DPS and another role. Many loved to play tank and healer as far back as first dual spec was added.

    I can not help you if you dont understand what Im talking about. Its called balance. If I was talking about gear then I should be delighted to see more ilvls and more gear beeing added in 5.2. Im not - cause it will just create more unbalanced gameplay all around.

    Cataclysm failed because BLizzard yet again left the game without new content for over 8 months. OFC ppl started to play alts... Why should those players not be allowed to point out the unfriendly alt nature of MOP when BLizzard offered nothing else in cata than rolling alts ? Oh wait... those players must be whining now. It can't be Blizzard that failed to support their game .. not only in CATA -but also now in MOP for those players that stuck with Cata by playing alts. No way !!

    Yes.. they are all just whiners that think about gear. Keep on generalizing about the WOW community. It just shows your ignorance.
    ...so just respec to a dps spec and once you're done, switch back. How lazy are you? Oh wait, that's Blizzard's fault as well.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    ...so just respec to a dps spec and once you're done, switch back. How lazy are you? Oh wait, that's Blizzard's fault as well.
    Blizzard's extreme is ofc part of the issue. It just goes to show they have no real plans for their game atm.
  1. Leonard McCoy's Avatar
    I like these changes. May resub when the patch drops to check it out. No valor gear behind shitty daily quests is the best. I won't touch a single fucking one.

    The grind is in place merely to give you the ILLUSION that Blizzard is doing more and making more content, when they actually aren't. I don't get why people actually defend and ask for more. It's like asking for less value for you money. Would you go to sears or mcdonalds and say you wanted to pay more for less? How bout I pay 15 and you do a better job of releasing content not ask me to grind more.
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