MMO-Champion - Patch 5.4 Vengeance Change, BG Healer Balancing Disabled, May 22 Hotfixes, Blue Posts
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Patch 5.4 Vengeance Change
Ghostcrawler talked about a potential change to how Vengeance works in Patch 5.4 last week, as well as answering a few questions about it.


Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Please don't do this. I do not wish to be made back into a simple meatshield. Staying alive and doing good damage is fun.
Your damage will still be fine and higher than pre Vengeance. Tanks don't need to win meters IMO. (Source)

Who benefits from this change? dps who like topping metres?
Healers who don't have to contend with tanks sitting in fires? (Source)

If all that loot didn't get people running 25 mans why do you think vengeance will? I don't get it man honestly.
It's not intended as a 25 perk. The environments are different in terms of DPS and require different numbers. (Source)

I think it's in addition to the PvP nerf tanks are getting theyre working hard to balance PvP and it's PvE
It's not a PvP issue. It's some protection against tanks doing unusual or goofy things to increase their AP to unintended levels. (Source)

Why do you want to make tanking more difficult? I would think with few tanks and healers you would want to make it easier.
Do some quick calculations. Do your tanks hit those numbers regularly without doing things like solo tanking? (Source)
If that's your reasoning I guess I understand it. If your goal is to make solo tanking harder this will do it.
We do want to make solo tanking harder on fights intended for 2 tanks. Solo tanking is fun to a degree, but it shouldn't be the right answer to increase DPS or mitigation. (Source)
Just want to point out that this change would hurt 10m far more than 25m though, compounding factors involved. I really don't understand why you think the cap in 25m should be higher than 10m even with higher tank damage.
Tanks are a greater percent of damage done in 10s. 1 per 4 DPS rather than 1 per 7 or so in 25s. Which means tanks should care more about their damage in 10s than in 25s which is odd. And because tanks do get hit harder in 25s they need more Vengeance to translate to higher active mitigation. So we think the pitch is sound on those fronts. Where it runs into trouble is that tanks don't have the same health. When the cap is lower, high health tanks will just have higher Vengeance. Furthermore, mitigation not based on Vengeance, such as Death Strike, just become more powerful at the cap. These are problems we'd have to solve if we go through with it, but there should be lots of PTR testing for 5.4. (Source)

Seems like a 180 from what you preached awhile ago, awhen you were fine with it. Why the change in philosophy?
Tank DPS will still be quite high even with this change. Wait for some players to estimate numbers. (Source)

I can't understand, why tanks dps was affected by this feature, if you could have just buffed threat directly.
We like for tank damage to be relevant, and for active mitigation to scale. Vengeance provides all of that in addition to threat. Having huge threat modifiers on low damage abilities was also something tank complained about constantly. It may bug DPS players to get out DPSd by a tank, which is understandable, but that happened in dungeons way before Vengeance. Overall Vengeance still solves a lot more problems than it creates. (Source)

Perhaps the source of vengeance needs to be looked at. Im not sure the complexity but can ground aoe not give it
Yes. We are going to start flagging certain ground mechanics to not give Venegance. (Source)

Random Battleground Healer Balancing Disabled
It looks like the long queue times were being caused by the new balancing system.



Patch 5.3 Hotfixes - May 22
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
General
  • Players that die and release around the Seat of Knowledge area will now be provided with a Spectral Gryphon (Wisp for Night Elves) or a Spectral Wyvern; allowing them to fly back to their bodies.

Classes

Druid (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
  • Talents
    • Force of Nature: Balance Treant should be more responsive while chain casting. The global cooldown on their version of Wrath has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, down from 1.5 seconds.
    • Force of Nature: Restoration Treant should no longer cause their target to Taunt enemies.

Priest (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
  • Shadow
    • Vampiric Embrace should now split healing amongst multiple allied targets by the proper amount.

Shaman (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
  • General
    • Healing Rain area-of-effect now should cap properly at 6 targets.
  • Talents

Warlock (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
  • General
    • Demonic Gateway now should correctly gain charges while the Warlock is mounted or on a passenger mount.
    • Siphon Life should now heal for the proper amount for Warlocks that have the Fel Armor passive ability.
  • Glyphs

Quests
  • Enemy at the Gates: Fixed an issue where players were unable to ride the War Serpent.

Pet Battles
  • Fabled Pandaren Pet Supplies should now always contain a Lesser Pet Treat.

Pet Battles
  • Scenarios
    • Secrets of Ragefire: Fixed an issue where certain situations could cause the Scenario to get stuck on Stage 3.

Items
  • Enchant Weapon - Spirit of Conquest is now soulbound.
  • Enchant Weapon - Bloody Dancing Steel is now soulbound.

Battlefield: Barrens
  • Kor'kron Commanders are now non-faction specific multi-tap for all characters that attack them.

Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Elite Gear and Rating Requirements
Don't worry, elite gear tied to rating is coming back next season.
As I understand it, this is indeed the current plan. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Talent Choice Simplicity
Well. To be fair, a lot of people never look up how to spec their characters, and so in those cases the old system probably felt slightly more dynamic. Unfortunately what they didn't know is that their choices were probably wrong. But maybe they don't care that their choices were wrong and their character was suboptimal - that's an honest way to play a game. Not everyone wants to ensure their character is maximizing its output, and it's the look and feel of the system that's more important than its actual effect.

That said, the new trees are still superior in offering competing options and each one can change up how your character plays, and differentiate it from someone else. If you look at build guides these days the suggestions for talents are usually just breakdowns on how each one works and which ones work better in what situations. There generally aren't any clear cut builds because most choices are viable depending on what you're doing. Obviously everyone is going to have favorites, but the fact that talent builds are a discussion instead of a map on how to place points, I think it's worked out quite well.

I'll add in the caveat that it's not perfect, some trees don't offer great options, some options aren't taken very often, and those are things we'll continue to tweak. Overall though we're quite happy with how the new trees have hit the goals we set forth. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Conquest Point Catch Up
I've not even done arena on this char in this season, and my cap is only 10k.
This is because the catch up system doesn't function as is explained in the opening post of this thread. The cap you mentioned in your post is actually correct if you have not earnt any Conquest points yet this season, because we are in week 10. The formula is as follows (As Russlad said):

(Week of season x 1000) - Conquest already earned. = Conquest cap

If the result of this equation is a negative or below your normal weekly cap, this means that your Conquest cap will be calculated as it would any other normal week.

If you weren't 90 during those weeks you missed don't get any extra points from what I understand. Seems kinda buggy, my SP that has missed loads of weeks didn't get a bigger cap either but granted it has full gear.
This is incorrect. If a character dinged level 90 this week, their cap would be the same as a character that has been level 90 since patch 5.2 but has not earned any Conquest points this season. You do not miss out on cap for weeks of the season that you were not level 90 for. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Blue Tweets
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Future
Please dont nerf flying because of a small minority sport like world pvp.
We like the MoP solution for now - no flying while leveling with some no fly zones on top of that. (Source)

Consider adding a LFD-style bag system to LFR. Dps get shorter queues, tanks and healers get occasional rewards. Everyone wins
We might. (Source)

How long do you think your expansion design methodology (new continent, new class/race, 3 new herbs/ores/cloth) can last?
I think players want to see some new gameplay too and not just new iterations of the things they've seen before. (Source)
Even if they aren't for you, challenge modes, pet battles, the farm, scenarios were all new types of ways to spend time. (Source)

Not saying it’s bad, I like it…just feels totally different.
The 5.0 talent design will stick around for awhile. We agree that leveling is missing frequent rewards though. (Source)
The *current* talent design feels pretty solid to us. We'll iterate but no overhaul plans. #famouslastwords (Source)

Why not spend time optimizing existing game systems like crafting instead of adding new systems that eat up developer time?
Ideally we try to do a little of both. Some players get bored of the old systems even if they are very well polished. (Source)

A patch used to include dungeons and raids, not a patch is just balance and dailies.
Dragon Soul came with few new boss models and virtually no new architecture because of the 3 dungeons included in that patch. (Source)
By contrast, Throne of Thunder has a lot of new boss models and a lot of architecture. It came at the expense of no dungeons. (Source)
Is there a happy medium? Can we do both? Perhaps. It's something we will work on in the future. (Source)
Now granted many players enjoyed the heck out of those dungeons. But others were quite candid about the raid. (Source)
This makes me believe that dungeons take a lot more effort than many peeps realize. oO Loved the Eternity one.
The architecture (the physical dungeon) takes a very long time. The encounters take time too, but usually less. (Source)
You can mitigate that by doing outdoor dungeons, but it's easy to overdo those. (Source)
Why can't the scenario team work on dungeons instead? Can't stand scenarios as healer; even in guild as disc.
Good dungeons require a lot of art. (Source)

ICC had new boss models, a lot of arche AND dungs. And you were going to hire more people since 4 years ago
We could only do that because the previous tier had a rather small raid and dungeon (that are not universally loved). (Source)
We could delay patches more in order to have more content per patch. Not sure that's the right answer either. (Source)
Could also hire more, which we are trying to do. That's a slow solution though unless you're willing to sacrifice quality. (Source)
Couldn't you combine Scenarios with 5 man logic and use existing environment? Same for raids?
We could, yes. Concern would be that players may view that as rehashed content and not the "real" dungeons they were looking for. (Source)

I hope you guys understand the no new 5 mans announcement, non-queueing for heroic scenarios, etc. drive away casual players.
We're not sure that just 1-3 new dungeons provides content for players for very long. Even Magister's I didn't run 30-40 times. (Source)

tri-spec won't happen, fine... Where are the proving grounds? A whisper in the wind.
Working on them. But when we talk about unannounced features too much they tend to become "promises." Just the way it goes. (Source)

Why not use scenario to show progress in the stories in EK/Kalimdor? Like scenario showing the war in Ashenvale/Gilneas?
That would be cool. Currently our scenarios are focused on recent events, but the possibility certainly exists. (Source)

Will an item level squish affect our ability to solo older content? If it doesn't, I have no problem with it.
The goal is it will not affect your ability to solo older content. (Source)
Squish is useless, because it just delays the inevitable. Numbers will get out of hand again. Regular squishs inc?
Maybe? With the squish we had planned for MoP, we wouldn't need to do it again for 2-3 expansions. Every 1 might feel weird. (Source)

Any plans to impelement an in game voice communication? You need other software to play any serious pve/pvp. Isn't that weird?
Would love to do it, but it's one of those solutions that you have to get right and we certainly did not with our first attempt. (Source)

Icy Veins Class Guides 5.3 Update
Icy Veins has updated their class guides for Patch 5.3, as well as having them reviewed by top players of each class.

This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.4 Vengeance Change, BG Healer Balancing Disabled, May 22 Hotfixes, Blue Posts started by chaud View original post
Comments 62 Comments
  1. MasterHamster's Avatar
    A bit weird to change Vengeance since it might affect mitigation, not just damage. (Sacred Shield for one)
    Buuut I'm not exactly watching our tanks Vengeance stack anyway.
  1. laggspike's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    I really cannot understand why you whine for the vengeance change. What is the problem, really? I am sure that if that make tanks unplayable, they will balance it somehow. I have not seen ONE come out and say "this change will break our tanking in <that> way". Something concrete instead of crying?
    look it like this:
    Yesterday, i was at horridon hc with my guild tanking with a druid (im a DK)
    we started to speak about the armor buffs and what not, he said: well, i have now over 120k armor.. and 60% crit..
    i said: i have 56k armor and 13% crit..

    that's the diff between a DK and a druid..

    i got 2 shotted from 2-3 stacks from horridon at p3, while he stood there taking fucking 14 stacks and solotanking the damn boss from 200 mill down to a kill..
    fun for a tank? hell no..

    and now they are nerfing the vengence like that`? more fun tanking? hell no, i see my self have aggro problems with our 500k+ burst rogue :/
    its just.. no, its not fun to tank anymore when they do stuff like that..
  1. Hinalover's Avatar
    Really the Vengence chance is not going to do much for "current content" tanks. Normals rarely, if ever hit 30% unless they purposely sit in pools which they are thinking of not triggering vengence. The only content that will cause tanks at current level to hit the vengence cap is in heroic. This basically downplays level 80 tanks trying to kill Heroic 25 Lich King.
  1. mstieler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by laggspike View Post
    as you said, the dps shuld dps, why dont start dps'ing then? do what you shuld do, and now QQ over the dps..

    tbh, as a tank, its FUN to have some competative dps.. its FUN to see some numbers while tanking..

    and now they gonna ruin it..
    I agree that seeing your name on top or near the top of the charts as a tank is great fun, especially when you're in a multi-add fight, properly tanking.

    Having Vengeance proc off stuff tanks shouldn't be doing (standing in the bad) seems to be more the issue than "tanks doing DPS". Hell, the tank doing the DPS they currently are is what's keeping one of my guild's raid teams alive at the moment, helping to shore up some lacking numbers from the DPS that's a bit lower on the charts. I mean, if tank #1 can put out 100k, while median DPS is 115k, the low DPS is putting out 60k, and tank #2 is putting out 50k, I don't see the problem; tank #1 is essentially replacing low DPS on the charts, with low DPS doing "tank damage", all while doing the tanking job they're supposed to be doing.
  1. Hexz's Avatar
    Hell I've got 725k Health buffed at 30% thats only 215k Vengeance at most, its not very hard to reach that at all even under normal conditions 2 tanking several fights being conservative for 10 man heroic fights, after paladins just came off a nerf to our SotR, all this will do is nerf out mitigation more, its stupid, even with stamina stacking which is what this would result in, pure stamina stacking which is just completely boring, i want to add stamina when i need it not just straight out stack it.
  1. Ragashii's Avatar
    Fairly certain this change is because of prot paladins. They just do (pro)active mitigation better. Hopefully next xpac blizzard will allow other tanks the same opportunity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    Really the Vengence chance is not going to do much for "current content" tanks. Normals rarely, if ever hit 30% unless they purposely sit in pools which they are thinking of not triggering vengence. The only content that will cause tanks at current level to hit the vengence cap is in heroic. This basically downplays level 80 tanks trying to kill Heroic 25 Lich King.
    They already fixed this when they capped vengence at max health.
  1. Salech's Avatar
    Their talk about talent trees are so stupid, these new talents are not better in anyway it's just bad.
  1. Ruck's Avatar
    And the downward spiral continues...what a stupid change.
  1. Strakha's Avatar
    So tanking is just back to babysitting retards and BGs are back to losing because there are no healers.

    Sounds like something worth subscribing too, lol, jk, see you next expansion.
  1. Rixark's Avatar
    As a tank, I gotta say that these Vengeance changes are brutal. A 70% nerf? You could nerf it 40% and the tanks would be below the DPS and still feel like they're contributing. This is just insane.
  1. laggspike's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    As a tank, I gotta say that these Vengeance changes are brutal. A 70% nerf? You could nerf it 40% and the tanks would be below the DPS and still feel like they're contributing. This is just insane.
    must agree.. 70% is quite alot..
  1. Korru's Avatar
    Vengeance, "broken" since 2010.
  1. Tofifi's Avatar
    As a warrior tank /care, we are top of the meters anyway. Oh wait!
  1. Toby451's Avatar
    Getting over 200k vengeance is rare (10hc), unless you are going out of your way to take extra damage purely for the sake of building extra vengeance (IE: using diffuse magic to soak thunderstruck). Your not even going to notice a change the other 99% of the time. I usually sit around 250k on heroic horridon after he enrages and that's the highest I ever get (I dont stand in bad stuff for extra veng).


    Major overreactions going on in here.
  1. risingforce's Avatar
    Stupid change, completely over the top.

    Back in the day my tanking DPS propped up a lot of LFRs and I heard no one complaining then.

    This seems like Blizzard cutting off Tanking's nose to spite its face.
  1. pimpeddakota's Avatar
    Lets nerf tank damage because raids are having a hard time clearing these raids... sounds like a smart idea blizzard make it even harder for guilds to clear content.. /claps as your player base still shrinks
  1. Nobleshield's Avatar
    All this tells me is they really have zero clue what they're doing and are just tossing out random numbers to see which causes the least complaints. Sad.
  1. momirmaster's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpeddakota View Post
    Lets nerf tank damage because raids are having a hard time clearing these raids... sounds like a smart idea blizzard make it even harder for guilds to clear content.. /claps as your player base still shrinks
    the people who complaining about clearing are normal mode players. show me a normal mode tank that gets close to 250k vengence since even the 30% cap will be 250k vengence. I get over that on 3 fights. DA which i tank 3 adds at start for 700k vengeance abuse, solo tank iron qon I hit like 250-300k with all dogs. and ill prob hit it on ra-den p2. highest ive seen up to 50% on ra-den is like 240k. Change will for the most part only eliminate the abuse of stuff like triple add DA to hit 700k vengeance and basically 4 shot adds.
  1. Toby451's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    As a tank, I gotta say that these Vengeance changes are brutal. A 70% nerf? You could nerf it 40% and the tanks would be below the DPS and still feel like they're contributing. This is just insane.
    Not even close to a 70% nerf in reality. It is a 70% nerf in maximum theoretical vengeance but it is impossible to achieve those levels of vengeance anyways (unless your doing something weird like the level 85? paladin soloing dogs). Nothing hits hard enough to sustain 700k vengeance (easily attainable for a tot geared tank without even stacking stamina) and even if it did, the damage would kill you and you would have 0 vengeance.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 10:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    the people who complaining about clearing are normal mode players. show me a normal mode tank that gets close to 250k vengence since even the 30% cap will be 250k vengence. I get over that on 3 fights. DA which i tank 3 adds at start for 700k vengeance abuse, solo tank iron qon I hit like 250-300k with all dogs. and ill prob hit it on ra-den p2. highest ive seen up to 50% on ra-den is like 240k. Change will for the most part only eliminate the abuse of stuff like triple add DA to hit 700k vengeance and basically 4 shot adds.

    +1. This change will only be noticed in the most extreme of situations. the other 99% of the time it will be the exact same or a small nerf.
  1. Sakki's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    All this tells me is they really have zero clue what they're doing and are just tossing out random numbers to see which causes the least complaints. Sad.
    They know what they are doing... they are nerfing dps gain from intentional taking damage you are not supposed to take. In normal conditions you ll almost never reach vengeance cap and it ll have minimal impact on those tanks - they ll most likely still be in top5 in most of the encounters.

    It ll no longer be viable tactic to stack Anima Ring on your paladin tank or solo tank whole fight despite stacking debuffs. It is good change...

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