MMO-Champion - Patch 5.4 Vengeance Change, BG Healer Balancing Disabled, May 22 Hotfixes, Blue Posts
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Patch 5.4 Vengeance Change
Ghostcrawler talked about a potential change to how Vengeance works in Patch 5.4 last week, as well as answering a few questions about it.


Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Please don't do this. I do not wish to be made back into a simple meatshield. Staying alive and doing good damage is fun.
Your damage will still be fine and higher than pre Vengeance. Tanks don't need to win meters IMO. (Source)

Who benefits from this change? dps who like topping metres?
Healers who don't have to contend with tanks sitting in fires? (Source)

If all that loot didn't get people running 25 mans why do you think vengeance will? I don't get it man honestly.
It's not intended as a 25 perk. The environments are different in terms of DPS and require different numbers. (Source)

I think it's in addition to the PvP nerf tanks are getting theyre working hard to balance PvP and it's PvE
It's not a PvP issue. It's some protection against tanks doing unusual or goofy things to increase their AP to unintended levels. (Source)

Why do you want to make tanking more difficult? I would think with few tanks and healers you would want to make it easier.
Do some quick calculations. Do your tanks hit those numbers regularly without doing things like solo tanking? (Source)
If that's your reasoning I guess I understand it. If your goal is to make solo tanking harder this will do it.
We do want to make solo tanking harder on fights intended for 2 tanks. Solo tanking is fun to a degree, but it shouldn't be the right answer to increase DPS or mitigation. (Source)
Just want to point out that this change would hurt 10m far more than 25m though, compounding factors involved. I really don't understand why you think the cap in 25m should be higher than 10m even with higher tank damage.
Tanks are a greater percent of damage done in 10s. 1 per 4 DPS rather than 1 per 7 or so in 25s. Which means tanks should care more about their damage in 10s than in 25s which is odd. And because tanks do get hit harder in 25s they need more Vengeance to translate to higher active mitigation. So we think the pitch is sound on those fronts. Where it runs into trouble is that tanks don't have the same health. When the cap is lower, high health tanks will just have higher Vengeance. Furthermore, mitigation not based on Vengeance, such as Death Strike, just become more powerful at the cap. These are problems we'd have to solve if we go through with it, but there should be lots of PTR testing for 5.4. (Source)

Seems like a 180 from what you preached awhile ago, awhen you were fine with it. Why the change in philosophy?
Tank DPS will still be quite high even with this change. Wait for some players to estimate numbers. (Source)

I can't understand, why tanks dps was affected by this feature, if you could have just buffed threat directly.
We like for tank damage to be relevant, and for active mitigation to scale. Vengeance provides all of that in addition to threat. Having huge threat modifiers on low damage abilities was also something tank complained about constantly. It may bug DPS players to get out DPSd by a tank, which is understandable, but that happened in dungeons way before Vengeance. Overall Vengeance still solves a lot more problems than it creates. (Source)

Perhaps the source of vengeance needs to be looked at. Im not sure the complexity but can ground aoe not give it
Yes. We are going to start flagging certain ground mechanics to not give Venegance. (Source)

Random Battleground Healer Balancing Disabled
It looks like the long queue times were being caused by the new balancing system.



Patch 5.3 Hotfixes - May 22
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
General
  • Players that die and release around the Seat of Knowledge area will now be provided with a Spectral Gryphon (Wisp for Night Elves) or a Spectral Wyvern; allowing them to fly back to their bodies.

Classes

Druid (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
  • Talents
    • Force of Nature: Balance Treant should be more responsive while chain casting. The global cooldown on their version of Wrath has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, down from 1.5 seconds.
    • Force of Nature: Restoration Treant should no longer cause their target to Taunt enemies.

Priest (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
  • Shadow
    • Vampiric Embrace should now split healing amongst multiple allied targets by the proper amount.

Shaman (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
  • General
    • Healing Rain area-of-effect now should cap properly at 6 targets.
  • Talents

Warlock (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
  • General
    • Demonic Gateway now should correctly gain charges while the Warlock is mounted or on a passenger mount.
    • Siphon Life should now heal for the proper amount for Warlocks that have the Fel Armor passive ability.
  • Glyphs

Quests
  • Enemy at the Gates: Fixed an issue where players were unable to ride the War Serpent.

Pet Battles
  • Fabled Pandaren Pet Supplies should now always contain a Lesser Pet Treat.

Pet Battles
  • Scenarios
    • Secrets of Ragefire: Fixed an issue where certain situations could cause the Scenario to get stuck on Stage 3.

Items
  • Enchant Weapon - Spirit of Conquest is now soulbound.
  • Enchant Weapon - Bloody Dancing Steel is now soulbound.

Battlefield: Barrens
  • Kor'kron Commanders are now non-faction specific multi-tap for all characters that attack them.

Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Elite Gear and Rating Requirements
Don't worry, elite gear tied to rating is coming back next season.
As I understand it, this is indeed the current plan. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Talent Choice Simplicity
Well. To be fair, a lot of people never look up how to spec their characters, and so in those cases the old system probably felt slightly more dynamic. Unfortunately what they didn't know is that their choices were probably wrong. But maybe they don't care that their choices were wrong and their character was suboptimal - that's an honest way to play a game. Not everyone wants to ensure their character is maximizing its output, and it's the look and feel of the system that's more important than its actual effect.

That said, the new trees are still superior in offering competing options and each one can change up how your character plays, and differentiate it from someone else. If you look at build guides these days the suggestions for talents are usually just breakdowns on how each one works and which ones work better in what situations. There generally aren't any clear cut builds because most choices are viable depending on what you're doing. Obviously everyone is going to have favorites, but the fact that talent builds are a discussion instead of a map on how to place points, I think it's worked out quite well.

I'll add in the caveat that it's not perfect, some trees don't offer great options, some options aren't taken very often, and those are things we'll continue to tweak. Overall though we're quite happy with how the new trees have hit the goals we set forth. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Conquest Point Catch Up
I've not even done arena on this char in this season, and my cap is only 10k.
This is because the catch up system doesn't function as is explained in the opening post of this thread. The cap you mentioned in your post is actually correct if you have not earnt any Conquest points yet this season, because we are in week 10. The formula is as follows (As Russlad said):

(Week of season x 1000) - Conquest already earned. = Conquest cap

If the result of this equation is a negative or below your normal weekly cap, this means that your Conquest cap will be calculated as it would any other normal week.

If you weren't 90 during those weeks you missed don't get any extra points from what I understand. Seems kinda buggy, my SP that has missed loads of weeks didn't get a bigger cap either but granted it has full gear.
This is incorrect. If a character dinged level 90 this week, their cap would be the same as a character that has been level 90 since patch 5.2 but has not earned any Conquest points this season. You do not miss out on cap for weeks of the season that you were not level 90 for. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Blue Tweets
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Future
Please dont nerf flying because of a small minority sport like world pvp.
We like the MoP solution for now - no flying while leveling with some no fly zones on top of that. (Source)

Consider adding a LFD-style bag system to LFR. Dps get shorter queues, tanks and healers get occasional rewards. Everyone wins
We might. (Source)

How long do you think your expansion design methodology (new continent, new class/race, 3 new herbs/ores/cloth) can last?
I think players want to see some new gameplay too and not just new iterations of the things they've seen before. (Source)
Even if they aren't for you, challenge modes, pet battles, the farm, scenarios were all new types of ways to spend time. (Source)

Not saying it’s bad, I like it…just feels totally different.
The 5.0 talent design will stick around for awhile. We agree that leveling is missing frequent rewards though. (Source)
The *current* talent design feels pretty solid to us. We'll iterate but no overhaul plans. #famouslastwords (Source)

Why not spend time optimizing existing game systems like crafting instead of adding new systems that eat up developer time?
Ideally we try to do a little of both. Some players get bored of the old systems even if they are very well polished. (Source)

A patch used to include dungeons and raids, not a patch is just balance and dailies.
Dragon Soul came with few new boss models and virtually no new architecture because of the 3 dungeons included in that patch. (Source)
By contrast, Throne of Thunder has a lot of new boss models and a lot of architecture. It came at the expense of no dungeons. (Source)
Is there a happy medium? Can we do both? Perhaps. It's something we will work on in the future. (Source)
Now granted many players enjoyed the heck out of those dungeons. But others were quite candid about the raid. (Source)
This makes me believe that dungeons take a lot more effort than many peeps realize. oO Loved the Eternity one.
The architecture (the physical dungeon) takes a very long time. The encounters take time too, but usually less. (Source)
You can mitigate that by doing outdoor dungeons, but it's easy to overdo those. (Source)
Why can't the scenario team work on dungeons instead? Can't stand scenarios as healer; even in guild as disc.
Good dungeons require a lot of art. (Source)

ICC had new boss models, a lot of arche AND dungs. And you were going to hire more people since 4 years ago
We could only do that because the previous tier had a rather small raid and dungeon (that are not universally loved). (Source)
We could delay patches more in order to have more content per patch. Not sure that's the right answer either. (Source)
Could also hire more, which we are trying to do. That's a slow solution though unless you're willing to sacrifice quality. (Source)
Couldn't you combine Scenarios with 5 man logic and use existing environment? Same for raids?
We could, yes. Concern would be that players may view that as rehashed content and not the "real" dungeons they were looking for. (Source)

I hope you guys understand the no new 5 mans announcement, non-queueing for heroic scenarios, etc. drive away casual players.
We're not sure that just 1-3 new dungeons provides content for players for very long. Even Magister's I didn't run 30-40 times. (Source)

tri-spec won't happen, fine... Where are the proving grounds? A whisper in the wind.
Working on them. But when we talk about unannounced features too much they tend to become "promises." Just the way it goes. (Source)

Why not use scenario to show progress in the stories in EK/Kalimdor? Like scenario showing the war in Ashenvale/Gilneas?
That would be cool. Currently our scenarios are focused on recent events, but the possibility certainly exists. (Source)

Will an item level squish affect our ability to solo older content? If it doesn't, I have no problem with it.
The goal is it will not affect your ability to solo older content. (Source)
Squish is useless, because it just delays the inevitable. Numbers will get out of hand again. Regular squishs inc?
Maybe? With the squish we had planned for MoP, we wouldn't need to do it again for 2-3 expansions. Every 1 might feel weird. (Source)

Any plans to impelement an in game voice communication? You need other software to play any serious pve/pvp. Isn't that weird?
Would love to do it, but it's one of those solutions that you have to get right and we certainly did not with our first attempt. (Source)

Icy Veins Class Guides 5.3 Update
Icy Veins has updated their class guides for Patch 5.3, as well as having them reviewed by top players of each class.

This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.4 Vengeance Change, BG Healer Balancing Disabled, May 22 Hotfixes, Blue Posts started by chaud View original post
Comments 62 Comments
  1. dhru's Avatar
    Blizzard devs you are on the way to lose more subs. Great job!

    If you fu**k up with tanks they will get less fun from the game, and again set more weight on the healers... That means less tanks -> longer queues (do you remember in RF when we are waiting for a tank?) -> 2-3hrs waiting for 26g... no thx. -> loosing subs. -> people realize this game is not the most popular so they will leave too...
    Most of the tanks cannot manage their role... and with these changes far less decent tanks will be.
    Soloing is really fun in that game nowadays, and now you try to destroy that too... shame on you.

    I am in a casual guild (10man raiding). But one of our main tanks will change to dps before 5.4, and we need to find a "good" tank before 5.4... How Blizzard? HOW?
    I have got characters on 3 realms, and those realms have got at all 5 guild with 25 raiding. 5! You killed the 25 raiding teams, now make harder the 10 man content with this... Well done!
  1. FpicEail's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Calthric View Post
    Please get rid of the awful vengeance system. Threat should be generated by abilities rather than damage and there is really no need for tanks to dish out the amount of damage that they currently do, especially when they have countless panic buttons, defensive abilities and self healing in addition.
    Vengeance is a good thing for a few reasons:
    -It provides incentive for people to play Tank (it is still an underplayed role WITH vengeance). Without vengeance, there would really be no fun in tanking; you would do negligible dps on every fight and there wouldn't be very many little tricks that could be pull off to make a fight just that small amount smoother (since many rely on vengeance)
    -It provides extra survivability when it is needed. More attack power equals magnified absorption and self-healing effects. This really matters on tough fights. Removing vengeance will make many fights a lot harder, even undoable. I actually kind of wish they do it a lot so that people suddenly realize what good vengeance does for them.
    -The extra raid DPS matters. Think of all the fights where you beat the boss by only a few seconds; Imagine not having upwards of 100k or more extra raid DPS from one or both of the tanks. Once again, fights become a lot harder
    -It is a balancing factor for tanks. High-vengeance DPS levels put tanks well into the 100k range, but base DPS actually varies quite a bit between the classes. Prot paladins, for example, might seem to do well with their 100k dps or so, but at 0 vengeance, our DPS barely escapes the 20k range (hence why we are totally screwed out of Brawler's Guild and PvP, and why questing is an absolute pain). This puts us at a great disadvantage to other tanks, but vengeance effectively solves it by increasing our damage to such a point that the variation is negligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    what kind of a fail-comment is that? why not just triple the damage from <insert dps class here>? everyone in your raid would be MORE than happy, because the raid is getting ridicoulus amounts of free DPS!

    see what i did there?
    Your parable doesn't work, because if one DPS class suddenly did triple damage, they would be in much higher demand, and raid groups would be obliged to take 6 of them to cheese a fight. With tanks, the same effect does not occur because you cannot have a raid of 6 or so tanks, all with high vengeance. The damage will be focused on one tank, since the majority of vengeance on fights comes from the melee damage (boss melee damage is actually really high, but armor reduces most of it from the get go, and since vengeance is based on the unmitigated attack, most of it is from these melee hits).
    So, having one or two tanks in the raid doing high DPS is win-win, unless you are really egotistical. Your raid gets a lot of extra DPS on high damage fights, i.e. where it counts, and you can't exactly go in with 10 tanks, leaving everyone else out. So yes, when you see a tank doing very high dps, you should be very happy that your total raid dps is raised by a considerable margin.

    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    i'm with you there! i remember the good old times when you could measure the skill of a tank by how well he was able to hold aggro, especially on multi-target fights. it made the difference between "everything under control" and "houston, we have a problem (and many dead dps+heal)". nowadays everything tanks have to do is spam their 400% boosted aoe abilities, topping the meters and not even look at threat - threat has become superflous. it was even more fun for me as a dps when i had to closely watch my aggro on the mobs. now i ignore it.
    See, this design really doesn't sit. Back in Vanilla wow, boss fights were incredibly simple by themselves; it was dealing with your own class mechanics that was the hard part. These days, design has shifted to dealing with an actually hard boss, using optimized class mechanics. This is a much better and more interesting design, in my opinion, because with the old design every fight in Molten Core and so on was essentially the same; waiting for sunder stacks, using threat drops on cooldown, etc.
    These days, the challenge in tanking does not stem from holding threat, but from where it really should be; managing incoming damage not only adequately, but optimally. This means swapping talents between fights, cooldown management, developing personal strategies for dealing with harder fights, keeping vengeance in mind when using particular abilities such as absorbs and heals, etc. If you think tanking these days is nothing but button mashing for free dps, you simply have not played tank, at least on harder fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    So, your concern is the extra dps the raid will lose, making encounter more difficult? Well I am sure they will balance it. Besides, not DPS gets more pressure to cover tank damage loss! Really no need to cry. UNLESS... you feel good being up there in the meters which makes you like the selfish DPS you are describing...
    I am really having trouble understanding some of what you are saying here: particularly "Besides, not DPS gets more pressure to cover tank damage loss!". No offense, but please write this more coherently, I really cannot tell what you are trying to say.

    The balancing that will have to occur in response to this change simply emphasizes how unnecessary this change is; there are many cons, but pretty much no pros. All the balancing they would have to do would simply not need to be done if they didn't go ahead with the change, or if they made the caps at more reasonable values.
    It is quite a rubbish argument to say that we are the ones being selfish here; on most fights, we don't top dps anyway. It is kind of fun doing 140k dps or so, but I'm not overly proud of it because I know that I am getting it from vengeance; I am proud of doing 140k on my hunter because I know that is actually my own good execution of the class. I am simply saying that you need to look at this from the perspective of not individuals trying to down a boss, but a whole raid trying to. ANYONE doing very high dps should be seen as a good thing, as it means the boss fight will be smoother. DPS is DPS, whether a damage dealer or a tank does it. At the end of the day, the boss is being downed faster and no one should give a shit, but many DPS are that egotistical that they think potentially game-breaking changes should be undergone to prevent tanks from doing high dps on some fights. When you value your own DPS ranking more than the competence of a raid as a whole, you do not appreciate raiding properly and you should change your mentality regarding it.

    Exactly! Stamina should have been higher in value! You are tanks. I am sick on seeing tanks hunting non-tanking stats in gear and still be effective. This is not normal. I understand that they made tanks gameplay more interesting by adding the active mitigation (was a DK tank before all this happen to the rest of the tanks) but they still overdid it.

    We have paladin tank in our guild that stacked haste like no tomorrow. We actually disenchanted any item with "tanking stats" on it! He even claimed priority on horidon's heroic trinket! You know... the haste one? Well, we reached tortos... and guess what? His haste setup was not that good against aoe tanking. And we could not use him there effectively. I can sure say that he can shove his precious dps gear up his ... a$$
    Severe misunderstanding of the paladin class. Haste has a very high value as a mitigation stat; we are NOT taking it because it gives us more dps. The DPS gain from haste is non-trivial at best. However, if you compare the relative values with respect to mitigation of all the stats, both haste and mastery come out on top BY FAR over dodge and parry, as does reaching the hit and expertise caps. This is why we are taking what is apparently 'dps gear'; the fact that we cannot bonus roll for the said gear, nor do we see the stats on our tier, doesn't mean it is not good gear for us. Blizzard, for whatever reason, doesn't want Paladins taking haste and excludes it from our tier and non-set epics, but if you take the initiative to actually compare the stat values and find out which is the most helpful, as some have, it is found that Blizzard is in fact wrong and you should be taking those pieces that you weren't intended to have.

    Haste has value as a tank stat because of three things: the talent Sacred Shield, and a passive ability called Sanctity of Battle, and the global cooldown
    -Sacred shield is a 30 second buff that provides an absorbing shield every 6 seconds, lasting 6 seconds or until the maximum amount of damage is absorbed. Haste increases the frequency of the shield application. At 18% haste, instead of the shield being applied every 6 seconds, it is applied every 4.6 seconds. This results in a greater overall net damage reduction from the absorption. Vengeance also incidentally increases the amount of damage absorbed.
    -Sanctity of Battle causes our haste to reduce our ability cooldowns; including our holy power generators (crusader strike/hammer of the righteous, and judgement). This gives us higher holy power generation, and thus a higher uptime of Shield of the Righteous. Shield of the Righteous is a 3 sec buff given by the spell of the same name (which requires 3 holy power to cast) which reduces our physical damage taken by 25% (which is further increased by mastery).
    -Haste reduces our global cooldown, once again resulting in greater holy power generation

    The result of higher haste is a smoother damage intake overall. This is in contrast with an avoidance build (the "tank" stats: dodge and parry) which results in a spikier, more unpredictable damage intake. As mentioned before, it all essentially revolves around Shield of the Righteous. This is the same reason why capping hit and expertise is one of our highest priorities, which is yet another reason to ignore avoidance gear. Your paladin tank was right for tanking the spark trinket (i also have the trinket) and the haste gear, and his inability to tank tortos is not due to the haste build.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanishO2 View Post
    Tank DPS isn't free, ok? All fights are designed with the tank dps in mind. Blizzard alread said that. So if they lower tank dps, they'll balance/develop encounters for that.

    What they don't want are "clever mechanics" to have more tank dps than intended, wich also generally put unecessary strain on healers (and screw their fights intended for 2 tanks wich also make one class way better than others, since that class can solo tank while the others can't. They don't want this).
    I addressed the balancing thing earlier, but vengeance is not the reason why Paladins can solo tank many fights. All tanks get vengeance; the reason we can solo tank Horridon, Tortos, Durumu and Qon is because of how Shield of the Righteous works (we can time it for every stack application) and the fact that we can drop stacks with a quick bubble and cancel macro.

    Also, tanks standing in fires for vengeance rarely actually happens. A tank worth his salt would never do it on a fight where damage intake was already an issue, and otherwise it would only really be worth risking it if the tank knows that the healers are reliable and can guarantee survival. Surviving reliably is the absolute priority, but if we can reasonably and reliably sacrifice for a good amount of extra DPS, why not?

    Also, the vengeance cap with this change will be around 200k for most tanks. This is a level not usually seen, so tanks will STILL be standing in stuff on certain occasions to increase dps...the only way this really affects tanking is on harder, high-damage-intake fights where we DO see values of 200k. In other words, the change not only fails to address what it was intended to, but it also backfires and hurts tanks, and thus raiding, overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    Because it is a game - its competition. What the point to play DPS class if tanks do 1.5 more damage you do? If, as you say, paladin top meters while tanking, and also provide decent healing what the point to play different class then? Lets roll paladins everyone to fill all roles in raid - this is absurd. Let current specs\classes to fulfill their role. And dont worry about raid dps drop - I bet Blizzard will compensate this somehow.
    Here's an idea; ignore the tanks? The point of playing a DPS class is to play competently to assist in the killing of a boss. If you do 120k on say Megaera and the tank is down at 60k, you are doing good DPS. If we go to Durumu, and the paladin solo-tank is doing 140k but you are still doing 120k, you are still doing good dps . Why should we drag tanks down when they are doing nothing but helping the raid a little extra in high damage situations? To make the DPS feel better?
    If the current model of vengeance allowed for raids to be done with all prot paladins, people would already be doing it. There is a good reason it is not done, and I described it before. In a normal raid, the prot paladin has X average vengeance. With a raid of 10 prot paladins, one of those will have X average vengeance, and the other 9 will have minimal vengeance and thus minimal damage and healing. The huge majority of vengeace comes from melee attacks.

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