MMO-Champion - Patch 5.4 Drop Rates, SoO Progression, Upcoming Pet Changes, Blue Posts, Fan Art
Wyatt Cheng on Health Pools and Combat - Part II, Differences Between the Templar and Crusader (Discussion), New Wallpaper: Book of Tyrael

Patch 5.4 Raid Finder and Flex Drop Rates
Now that we have a few weeks worth of data on WoWDB, we can talk a little bit about the Raid Finder and Flex difficulty drop rates.

World Boss Drop Rates

Raid Boss Drop Rates


Siege of Orgrimmar Heroic Progression
Method and Blood Legion are leading progress with 13/14 bosses down now, followed by six other guilds at 12/14. Over in the 10 player column, Paragon is still leading with 13/14 bosses down.



Upcoming Pet Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
We have a few hotfixes to share with you and these changes should be in game now, or will take effect once the realms have been restarted:

  • Pierre and Rascal-Bot are no longer Bind on Pickup; they can now be caged and you can collect up to 3 of each.
  • Rascal-Bot's Phaser spell is now a one-round ability. The tooltip still erroneously states that it is a two-round ability which we plan to correct at a later date.
  • Jadefire Spirit's Fade ability now has an eight-round cooldown.

Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Raid Finder Difficulty
You would think with all this LFR SoO complaints that Blizzard would get the message but they're still in denial...
You may have missed my second post. Or are you dismissing a lack of immediate change and specific hotfix notes as indifference?

This guy gets it. You don't make people better players by smoothing to road for them. You do it by handing them a shovel and saying "here's the tools, fix it yourself".
That's an unfortunately common outlook, that if you just made stuff harder for people they'd aspire to greatness. But we know that's not how it works for everyone, or how all people respond to challenges, or necessarily what everyone is even looking for in their entertainment. We're getting into social commentary territory which I'd like to avoid, but let's dismiss the notion that any of us "know what's best" for any other person, and instead accept their preferences as absolutely valid, and think and discuss about what the issues and solutions are from that viewpoint instead of focusing on how to tell other people they're enjoying their game incorrectly. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Hunter (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
Patch 5.4 and Deterrence
I understand why there would be some confusion about Deterrence's function in 5.4. And yes, it's a nerf in cases where you were using it more or less on cooldown every minute for longer than about 4 minutes.

However, in cases where you'd like to use it more than once inside a 1-minute period, the new Deterrence is a significant buff. Previously, that couldn't be done without using Readiness, and the vast majority of players weren't saving Readiness for Deterrence.

It's different now, sure, but we like how the new version is working. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Blue Tweets
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
PvE
Why don't you make all raid modes share the same lockout? That way they won't have to hate such an awesome feature.
We like the idea that e.g. a HC guild could run a flex on another night for those folks who care about achievements. (Source)
FWIW, in 5.0 when my old guild was dead, LFR was the only way I was able to run those raids. So I am all for it
I am a HC raider, but if I log on an alt at 10 AM on a Sun, I don't want to have to look for guildies. LFR works great for that. (Source)

Do you think that this bias towards / insistence on larger raids leads to overemphasizing AE heals as a necessary consequence?
In 10s it's easier to coordinate and 25s easier to specialize, which leads to just doing one thing over and over. (Source)
I believe 25s are more fun personally and think better for the game strategically, but concede healing more fun in 10s. (Source)
I feel 10s are better socially. 25 is too many people I don't know well enough to care about or listen to.
Some truth to that, but 10s also have to be more selective & are less resilient to losing folks. In that way, 25s good for social. (Source)
seems the changes your making 10 man's are becoming worthless and second place to 25 man raids. how long b4 10 mans are gone
10s are in no danger of going anywhere. 25s remain in danger despite the advantages you are worried about. (Source)

so the next xpac will be another cataclysm, you had this talk before that launch about difficulty and need to change
No, the problem with Cat was there was no alternatives to HC dungeons. As I said, exclusive is fine as long as alternative exist. (Source)
That has me worried. The early cata zones is what made me leave last time!
Zones (meaning the outdoor leveling content) or dungeons? The discussion was about dungeons.... (Source)

does the vast diversity of player skill pose problems in content design?
Absolutely. Often players can use gear (which is generally a function of time invested) to help make up the difference. (Source)

Why not open heroics first week so heroic guilds dont load up on Ngear with multiple raids and the tiers last a little longer?
Seeing the encounters for one week in normal helps us catch last minute problems. (Source)
Imagine first kill of a heroic boss was 60 sec without cheating. Do we then buff the boss? Do we strip them of their kill? (Source)

If organized gameplay is "the heart and soul" of wow, why is only a minority part of this "heart and soul"?
Queuing for random matchmaking is very convenient. Our concern is that those players burn out quickly without social connections. (Source)

why the hell can i get a cloak off ordos when you need a legendary cloak to even fight him. Waste of a drop.
You can access Ordos if any character on your account has a cloak I believe. (Source)

WoWDB Addon Data Collection
Collecting data on things like the 5.4 drop rates is done with the help of thousands of players. The more people that contribute data, the more accurate and quickly we can update the database.

To help out, just click here if you have Curse Client already installed.

When you are playing the addon will gather data and save it. When you are done playing, Curse Client will see the game close and upload the collected data from the addon. You can see the last time data was uploaded by looking in the Plugins tab of the options, as well as making sure the addon is enabled there. If you don't normally leave it open, be sure you open Curse Client once in a while so that the data will upload



Fan Art
Today we take a look at some more of the Fan Art created for the WoW Tribute book.

This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.4 Drop Rates, SoO Progression, Upcoming Pet Changes, Blue Posts, Fan Art started by chaud View original post
Comments 36 Comments
  1. Kazlehoff's Avatar
    so ghostcrawler said
    10s are in no danger of going anywhere. 25s remain in danger despite the advantages you are worried about.
    am i the only person who thinks that if 25 man was worth playing, it wouldn't need protecting?
  1. Highmage's Avatar
    I also call BS on 25%. There should be a built in counter displaying how many times a player has missed out on gear. Once this counter reaches a threshold like 4 bosses the next boss...boom loot. Both wings of flex and raid finder for 2 weeks and I have received 2 items, that's 2 items on 20 boss kills. Looking a little more like 10% to me.
  1. Dugna's Avatar
    That artwork is damn nice...but the Varain Garrosh one...when would that ever happen?
  1. chaud's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by FallMonkey View Post
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...e-Tweets-Comic

    Hmm I think it's very safe to keep that 20% drop rate for ToT instead of 16% you mentioned. The page of Treasures of the Thunder King also indicates that it's less than 80% chance to have a loser bag from any boss.
    The drop rates on Treasures of the Thunder King are for all difficulties, you need to see the actual boss page and select LFR to just see LFR data. The 16% is adjusted from what you can see on WoWDB (~18%) due to an addon error that threw things slightly off.
  1. lavafoxx's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dugna View Post
    That artwork is damn nice...but the Varain Garrosh one...when would that ever happen?
    I don't think it ever would. Although the illustrator mentioned about something that would force the two to work together, it would have to be HUGE in my opinion.
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    It's always the LFR heroes whining about loot. You never see normal/heroic raiders crying over it. RNG is RNG it's the very basics of this game, if that fact makes you cry all the time then go play something else. All this loot protection crap is just blizzard giving baby its bottle. Time to ween.
  1. Staticus's Avatar
    I also believe that all gear drops on a dungeon and raid boss should have the same chance to drop. seeing the same thing drop almost everytime and the one piece you or someone on the team needs never drops except when that person is not present is stupid.
    AFAIK everything is supposed to have the same drop chance (tier tokens aside unless they changed it since MoP), however it was suggested some time ago (see post 2) that Blizz's RNG code makes the same things happen in a row more often than it should. I dunno if this affects the loot tables from week-to-week (it certainly looks that way) but it surely causes 2-3 of the same item dropping off a boss far more often than it should, given the tiny odds of such a thing happening. (multiple drops of the same item should never have been applied to non-tier items in the first place, never mind the fact that the code seems to favour it)
  1. Azrile's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Telling folks rng is rng in no way makes up for being on the shit end of the rng curve. Why is it that pvp has an almost entirely deterministic progression system but pve just can't?
    LOL, you want people to get RNG drops from winning an Arena match??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlehoff View Post
    so ghostcrawler said


    am i the only person who thinks that if 25 man was worth playing, it wouldn't need protecting?
    Players will always take the path of least resistance. 10s are much easier to organize, therefore will be done more. The problem is from a design perspective, the game is more fun playing in 25 man mode and the encounters can be more interesting with more people.

    it isn´t about protecting 25ms, it is just about finding the proper reward balance to counteract the fact that 25s are harder to organize.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shudder View Post
    It's always the LFR heroes whining about loot. You never see normal/heroic raiders crying over it. RNG is RNG it's the very basics of this game, if that fact makes you cry all the time then go play something else. All this loot protection crap is just blizzard giving baby its bottle. Time to ween.
    Are you joking. The forums are filled with threads from raiders crying about cloaks being on the loot tables of bosses. Like half the posts a few days ago were tears on that issue.

    I agree about people being silly complaining about bad RNG after only a few weeks, but this is hardly just LFR people who cry about loot.
  1. Lohe's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    LOL, you want people to get RNG drops from winning an Arena match??
    I feel that the logical thing to assume would be that he wants it to be the other way around, having PvE match the loot system of PvP. But hey, just jump at the chance at making fun of people, it makes you seem bright.

    +1
  1. Azrile's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Staticus View Post
    AFAIK everything is supposed to have the same drop chance (tier tokens aside unless they changed it since MoP), however it was suggested some time ago (see post 2) that Blizz's RNG code makes the same things happen in a row more often than it should. I dunno if this affects the loot tables from week-to-week (it certainly looks that way) but it surely causes 2-3 of the same item dropping off a boss far more often than it should, given the tiny odds of such a thing happening. (multiple drops of the same item should never have been applied to non-tier items in the first place, never mind the fact that the code seems to favour it)
    You need to understand statistics a little more. The odds of you getting the exact same item off of a boss two times in a row is actually fairly high depending on the loot table and your spec. On most bosses, probably 25% or 33%. (and just for the statistically challenged, there is a difference between getting ´the same´ item two times in a row, then getting ´a certain item two times in a row´. The problem is just with human perception.. we remember those things much more than we do the normal cases where we get a different item.

    And to say Blizz´s RNG code is bad is just ignorant talk from people with no programming experience. These guys have programmed stuff like phasing, connected realms and some really crazy stuff... an RNG seed is very very basic stuff that is used and shared everywhere in programming and has been tested trillions of times. One guy saying ´omg, I got the same item 3 times in a row, Blizzards RNG is busted´ is kid´s talk.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    I feel that the logical thing to assume would be that he wants it to be the other way around, having PvE match the loot system of PvP. But hey, just jump at the chance at making fun of people, it makes you seem bright.

    +1
    Well, the devs have already commented on that many times. And obviously with no VP gear this patch they are moving away from that model. One dev mentioned recently that they felt it wasn´t as exciting to go shopping for gear 2 hours after a raid as it was to loot your sword from the corpse of a dead dragon.

    This entire topic is just a bunch of whiners saying ´OMG, I want this new item and I didn´t get it the first 2 weeks´... Like I said, I have been the victim of terrible RNG this patch. Overall ilvl 540, weapon still at 510?? despite the fact that my weapon drops from the very first boss and I have used every stone, every week on that boss? But you just have to keep it in perspective.. on Tuesday, I have 5, or maybe 6 more rolls on that first boss ( and yes, I have won the helm twice already and fully expect to win another).

    You know what is really unfun? if there is a store somewhere that sells my weapon and I can say ´wow, I only need to kill 9 more bosses and I will be able to buy it´.. That is boring. Blizzard has already given us a bad RNG dampener in the form of bonus rolls, they allow us to pick and chose which boss we want a better chance at.

    This is just one of those things where players would make the game very boring if he got his way. Sorry, I want my weapon to come to me with dragon guts spilled on it, not with gift-wrapping and a price tag from an NPC store.
  1. Lohe's Avatar
    You're awfully good at not actually reading what people are saying. I'm telling you to read before you respond, that was the only point I had making my post. What do you do? Ignore the point.
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post
    Are you joking. The forums are filled with threads from raiders crying about cloaks being on the loot tables of bosses. Like half the posts a few days ago were tears on that issue.

    I agree about people being silly complaining about bad RNG after only a few weeks, but this is hardly just LFR people who cry about loot.
    Nope, I read that thread. It was LFR people who have the cloak getting angry about Ordos dropping a cloak when you need the legendary to fight him.

    Why hasn't mmochamp updated the world first race? It's over, a guild in china got world first yesterday. Obvious racism that they're ignoring it.
  1. bionics's Avatar
    Really digging some of the artwork from the Udon book; any way they could lower the price a tad, though? $50 is a bit steep.
  1. pikkuhukka's Avatar
    10man kill oh heroic garrosh? in my books, DOES NOT COUNT as a heroic world first

    25man or gtfo

    yes im serious, in 10man there is 15 less mistake makers, so yes,

    that world first does not count

    also, in asia, they get better loot when it comes to itemlevel so theyre ahead of us when it comes to itemlevel

    and no, im not trolling, this is my honest opinion, 10man progress DOES NOT COUNT AS ANYTHING, 25MAN OR GTFO

    /:=)
  1. Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post

    You know what is really unfun? if there is a store somewhere that sells my weapon and I can say ´wow, I only need to kill 9 more bosses and I will be able to buy it´.. That is boring. Blizzard has already given us a bad RNG dampener in the form of bonus rolls, they allow us to pick and chose which boss we want a better chance at.

    This is just one of those things where players would make the game very boring if he got his way. Sorry, I want my weapon to come to me with dragon guts spilled on it, not with gift-wrapping and a price tag from an NPC store.
    Apparently not. The developers keep this system in place for pvp. Why can't pvp have the same fun as everyone else? Aren't they just as deserving? Why not simple have a bg give a chance to drop a piece of loot?

    The developers insistence on RNG drives players (specifically casual players) away. Who in gods name want's to waste their time for little to no reward? THEIR WAS NOTHING WRONG with buying my gear from a valor vendor. It gave me an alternative progression path that wasn't some horrid RNG abomination. You like getting your gear from bosses okay go forth and do that. No reason you can't do that and I can't have a valor vendor. You know what's really boring? Killing the same fucking boss over and over again for no gain at all. Constant frustration gets boring. After awhile you stop giving a fuck and then bye bye sub. I honestly cannot understand how you find a system ENTIRELY OUT OF YOUR CONTROL more interesting then a system where you have some measure of control in how you get the gear you want to get. You're not g etting the loot off the boss, you're getting the loot off some artificial dice roll machine in the background. I'd love to get the loot of the boss, if that actually happened but it doesn't. Who in their right fucking mind writes a fantasy novel and after the hero kills the dragon or black knight or whatever they get NOTHING out of it. Like wtf kinda fantasuy is that? It's a non fantasy. The heroes ALWAYS EXPECT a reward from killing the boss not simple a chance at a reward. Going back to even fantasy archetypes. Siegfried doesn't kill fafnir because some programmer somewhere gives him a 5% chance at loot. Siegfried kills fafnir full well knowing he will gain strength from it.

    It's a fucking terrible fantasy robbing immersion killing system. The VENDOR was better. You can at least understand a world where you buy stuff from people for an acquired currency. People do that everyday. The constant cock block rng has NOTHING to do with the "fantasy" or the fun of the issue, it has everything to do with naked and obvious attempt to stretch out content that has little depth in an vein effort to keep subs retained and shove players into raiding. It's fucking terrible and I hope they lose millions of subs over the loss of the valor vendor. I mean I've got lots of criticism about the game but if I could rewind one thing it would be all the changes made to valor. It's a painfully stupid fucking regression to the game that wasn't necessary. It's TERRIBLE.
  1. Windclaw's Avatar
    Tbh bonus rolls drop rate is way to low I rolled like 12 times and got 0 loot

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pikkuhukka View Post
    10man kill oh heroic garrosh? in my books, DOES NOT COUNT as a heroic world first

    25man or gtfo

    yes im serious, in 10man there is 15 less mistake makers, so yes,

    that world first does not count

    also, in asia, they get better loot when it comes to itemlevel so theyre ahead of us when it comes to itemlevel

    and no, im not trolling, this is my honest opinion, 10man progress DOES NOT COUNT AS ANYTHING, 25MAN OR GTFO

    /:=)
    10 man is is just as hard as 25 man because you can only make 1 mistake maybe 2 and then it wipes on 25 man you can have more fuck ups as well as more healers to catch the dmg of mistakes I think your opinion is wrong and have a feeling you never did 10 man

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