Update: Added a new response to some feedback.

Patch 5.4.2 PTR - Build 17585

Warlords of Draenor - Flying Delayed Until First Major Patch
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
There's a lot of discussion about flying/not-flying and I'd like to try to sum things up and maybe realign the discussion a bit. Some of the other threads are near-cap, some have really gone down tangents, so I'm just picking this one to throw a reply into. Apologies to the other threads.

We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor. No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.

Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.

Update: So a couple things I wanted to bring up in addition to what I posted earlier. The first was that we're of course refining our questing experience, you may have heard a bit about it from BlizzCon, and that expands to max level content as well. In Mists of Pandaria there was quite a bit of outdoor content at max level, but it was almost entirely in the form of dailies. From BlizzCon we shared we're looking to provide something quite a bit more story driven like the 5.1 Operation Shieldwall/Dominance Offensive with some of the exploration lessons we learned from the Timeless Isle, and that extends to the max level experience as well. We want the transition at max level not to be questing and story to a harsh "now you do dailies", but something that's more natural and feels a lot like the leveling experience just at max level for better reward. And so that goes back to all of the reasons I gave before about how flight interrupts some of the core mechanics we think present the best leveling and questing experience, and I thought it'd be good to point out that it'll also play a big role at max level due to our questing refinements.

The second thing is we really like when flying feels like a reward and something you've earned for each new expansion or area. It's such a powerful ability and we look back at BC (at least for epic riding) or Wrath and those were really big keystone achievements for us as players (mainly because they had some pretty huge gold costs on them...). Regardless of the unlock method though it was one of the bigger moments when you unlocked flying, took to the skies, and were able to see the world from an entirely different vantage because for most of us it wasn't easily attainable. Our plan has been to recapture some of that but make it a bit cooler, and while we don't have specifics just yet, it'll be something more involved than just paying gold; something that further emphasizes how powerful flight is. Unlocking it won't just be level 100 on the day 6.1 comes out with some gold, but something you'll be working toward over the course of the initial expansion release, and 6.1 will introduce the final steps to complete it. Think of something like a mini Legendary cloak quest. It's such a enormous power to be able to fly we really want it to be more of a key moment when you unlock it, and something that feels like an accomplishment more than just shelling out some gold like we've had in the past.

Anyway, I felt like those two things were worth spelling out.

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This article was originally published in forum thread: Warlords of Draenor - Flying Delayed Until First Major Patch, Hearthstone Beta Keys started by chaud View original post
Comments 1056 Comments
  1. Protectereli's Avatar
    People saying they are going to quit over this, seriously? They do this EVERYTIME sheesh.
    And the first months of the expansion are always the most epic and alive because of it.
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Valock View Post
    All the people over at the official forum that will unsub just because of this, hahaha, laughing my ass off here.

    Pathetic how people prioritize things.

    I for one welcome this! I've hated how dumb down exploration and travelling have become with flying.
    What is pathetic here is people like you who see someone, who is a customer, who pays for a product, not liking an announcement and is deciding not to pay for that product anymore and use that money to buy something else. On what fucking planet is that considered pathetic? What planet is that considered funny? How does it hurt you so much that you're getting angry over it? If my cable company makes some dumb announcement and I feel like it's not worth having cable anymore and I remove it am I pathetic? If Lays says they're going to start putting glitter in their chips and I decide to buy candy bars instead am I pathetic? Do you actually read what you type before hitting submit? I see people throwing the word hissy fit around, like they know what it means. How is unsubscribing from a video game and going to play other games a hissy fit? It's my fucking money I can do whatever the hell I want with it. I can literally choose any reason why I don't want to play anymore and it's none of your fucking business.
  1. Jacob6875's Avatar
    What is the point of arbitrarily delaying it until 6.1. Are we supposed to enjoy getting dismounted constantly while trying to do dailies and random profession stuff after hitting 100? Super fun stuff.
  1. Korgoth's Avatar
    Lol at this flying trivializes leveling combat Blizzard idiocy. Have they played their game! Leveling is trivial. Its mindless, its going to the next point on the map, which they show you, then grinding some mobs, then going to the next point on the map. Flying between the points reduces the time it takes, it does not make it go from being a challenge to not a challenge, it goes from being a 10min quest to a 7min quest.
  1. Nachturnal's Avatar
    Still don't understand this decision... I mean I will definitely be here for launch, WoD looks kick ass, but why delay flying till 6.1? Seems silly to me. I understand the whole argument about immersion and pretty trees and instant bounce from danger tactic of flying mounts. However, for those who just absolutely despise flying mounts, why not just... I don't know.. pop up that ground mount? This is one of those rare situations where there is definitely a solution that pleases both sides of an argument. If you love to travel quickly, flying mount it up broskis! If you want to immerse yourself in the vastness of the pixels, summon your horse or wolf, and enjoy the scenery of what Blizzard worked hard for.

    I just don't understand why force players to do something for a situation that can be handled through personal choice. Again, if you want to fly, then fly, if you want to immerse, then ground mount. I know its a response that comes off a bit douchey but it is a legitimate solution. How is my flying hurting you? How is your ground mount hurting me? Summoning my flying mount is not making the entire playerbase summon their flying mount (would actually be so funny lol ). It's a personal choice that won't hurt other players, rather than purposely force players hand in which case you're causing a whole new problem. I'm all for delaying flying, UNTIL max level, not until a whole other patch. Way too strict of a decision that could have been handled so easily.

    Another thing, why not just make flying available at max level such as in Pandaria, once you've hit max on your main, you did all the immersing, now it's time to rush on through with your alts, why delay it for an entire patch. One thing I'm saying for sure is, when launch hits, I'm not touching an alt until 6.1. Bad enough I won't be able to fly on my main, but on 5 other characters also? No way lol.
  1. Ragashii's Avatar
    I just dislike not being able to use certain mounts because they don't have jump animations. Don't really care about flying but some of the mounts look great. Making flying speed/ground mount speed 100% and 310% as a learned skill was to allow you to use any mount you wanted. Previously the speed of the mount depended on the mount itself. Let me use the mount I want, I don't care if it can fly or not.
  1. Pengalor's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Lol at this flying trivializes leveling combat Blizzard idiocy. Have they played their game! Leveling is trivial. Its mindless, its going to the next point on the map, which they show you, then grinding some mobs, then going to the next point on the map. Flying between the points reduces the time it takes, it does not make it go from being a challenge to not a challenge, it goes from being a 10min quest to a 7min quest.
    Exactly. Such a ridiculous line of reasoning. Not to mention that most classes (if not every class) have an ability that increases their movement speed by an insane amount or allows them to leave combat altogether. Are they nerfing those abilities too? Because clearly those don't trivialize combat in any way.
  1. Ivion's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    That seems to be the case. They want to disable flying in any new content because they like forcing their style of play on everyone. They should have learned that this philosophy is horrible from D3.

    Maybe they should embrace flying instead of grounding everyone. If they want the world to be dangerous, add stuff that attacks us in the air, add flying mobs, lassoing mobs that grab you and pull you down. So many other possibilities that will make the game more interesting and allow me to fly between quest hubs and explore from higher up.
    That's ridiculous, not the least because of the Monsterous Kaliri. Do you remember them? No? The giant birds from the Skyguard dailies? That outraced you and knocked you off your flying mount, sending untold hundreds to their death? Do you remember the shitstorm of that?

    This is much, much better.
  1. Solzan Nemesis's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Captiosus View Post
    Precisely.

    People have invested years and tens/hundreds of thousands of gold into flying for their characters, and some have spent real money on specific flying mounts in Blizzard's real money store. When the majority of these players who do not visit forums or MMO-C get to 100 and realize there's no flying, there's going to be a shitstorm.
    Yeah... I kinda forgot about though people.. Oh shit...

    As for myself I will deal with it (Just not like it).
  1. Bogrim's Avatar
    I don't think people are hurt that they won't be able to breeze through content instead of experiencing it the way it was meant to be experienced, but to be cut off from using the mount models they earned and want to ride. Generally speaking, the issue isn't the idea of flying mounts, but the way Blizzard executed flight in general. Flying is not dangerous, which makes no sense considering how incredibly dangerous you could make it.

    This points to Blizzard being really lazy because this is an expansion - the perfect opportunity to create some new flight game mechanics, and yet they're just going to continue dealing with it like an on and off switch.
  1. silveth's Avatar
    Reading all this I finally understand people that say "you can see who started in late in wolk or later" since I keep seeing people complaining about no flying while leveling, which was only allowed for CATA. The whole waiting for 6.1 is new, but the having to level without flying has pretty much been the norm in wow. Couldn't fly till 70 (68 Druid) in BC, couldn't fly till 77 (Until late in the expansion when they allowed you to purchase and pass down the cold weather books), and couldn't fly in MOP until 85. Where is this allowed flying while leveling being the norm in the expansion coming from since 3 out of 4 had large limits or disallowed it?

    As for the waiting until 6.1, well that could turnout to be a minor patch in 2 weeks that they plan or 6 months. I think worrying about until actually seeing what Warlord will look like and how it will shape up is pretty premature.

    I personally think people are right an they should make it a personal choice. Lower the flying speed to 160 (old normal speed) and make ground speed like 225 or 250. That way people can weigh the pros and cons of each depending on what and where they are going. I mean that would be a equal preferential choice based on the situation right? Wouldn't that be fun?

    Slip
  1. bloodmoon's Avatar
    hope flying willl be removed from game. It makes game silly.
  1. Ragashii's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivion View Post
    That's ridiculous, not the least because of the Monsterous Kaliri. Do you remember them? No? The giant birds from the Skyguard dailies? That outraced you and knocked you off your flying mount, sending untold hundreds to their death? Do you remember the shitstorm of that?

    This is much, much better.
    Well, to be fair most people flew around at the ATROCIOUS speed of 60% in the air back then. Remember those legion flak cannons that knocked you out of the air if they hit you? So much QQ about those at the time...
  1. lunchbox2042's Avatar
    Being able to round up mobs and aoe them down makes combat trivial as well. Are they going to remove the ability to do that until the first patch too?
  1. Pengalor's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Protectereli View Post
    People saying they are going to quit over this, seriously? They do this EVERYTIME sheesh.
    And the first months of the expansion are always the most epic and alive because of it.
    Every time? You mean except Wrath, or Cata, or MoP? Which 'every time' are you talking about? The limit has always been max level. Once you hit max level you get your flying. However, this time it's not about your level but some arbitrary time when 6.1 comes out. Horrible idea.

    EDIT: Oh, and the first couple months of the expansion are more alive because there are simply more people playing. Not sure what you're getting at. After most people hit the max level the world dies down except for farmers and late-comers, the rest are busy doing things which generally don't involve the rest of the world.
  1. Kuja's Avatar
    Boo. Flying is fun. Have to wait for the first patch before playing then to have some fun
  1. Abstieg's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bogrim View Post
    I don't think people are hurt that they won't be able to breeze through content instead of experiencing it the way it was meant to be experienced, but to be cut off from using the mount models they earned and want to ride. Generally speaking, the issue isn't the idea of flying mounts, but the way Blizzard executed flight in general. Flying is not dangerous, which makes no sense considering how incredibly dangerous you could make it.

    This points to Blizzard being really lazy because this is an expansion - the perfect opportunity to create some new flight game mechanics, and yet they're just going to continue dealing with it like an on and off switch.
    I remember how much I loved the Sethiss dailies, because flying in that had a sense of danger, same with Ogri'la. Can they not work things like that in again? Give ground mobs defenses against the air, or add freaking flying mobs again.
  1. Ragashii's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox2042 View Post
    Being able to round up mobs and aoe them down makes combat trivial as well. Are they going to remove the ability to do that until the first patch too?
    Nerf stealth it ruins the vision that the devs have for the combat in game.
  1. Eats Compost's Avatar
    Their reasoning is completely sound. Allowing you to fly whilst leveling outright breaks their quest design, and it should be obvious why they don't want you to be able to fly up, avoid everything and plonk yourself down exactly where you need to be. It's less convenient not doing that, yes, but an instant mob kill button would also be convenient, and we know exactly why that's not getting implemented.
  1. xskarma's Avatar
    Urgh. Hate this, seriously hope they reconsider.

    This isn't about my mounts, nor my ability to fly all the time. Restrict me from flying while I level, restrict my from flying in certain zones that you want to be experienced in certain ways. I'm fine with that, encourage it even.

    What I hate about this is the fact I'll be without flying mounts while NOT in specific areas, while traveling around (which we will be doing a LOT those first few weeks) from the different areas I need to be in for reputation with factions and where I need to be to pick up profession materials and where I need to be to use a bank/AH/Other city comforts. I'll need to do this by FLYING (!!) on a flightpath, with nothing else to do but go AFK and do something on another screen, completely ignoring the landscape I would have been paying attention to if I were actually using my own flying mount.

    And not just that. It's a time issue too.

    Go back in your mind to Mists 5.0 and forget the fact some areas are in accessible without a flying mount (mainly Tillers) and now imagine a typical day in those first few weeks, and doing Tillers, and Golden Lotus and Klaxxi dailies and now try to imagine that all that running around in Valley of the 4 winds, and Vale of Eternal Blossoms and Dread Wastes that you did was done on a ground mount exclusively. How much longer do you think that would have taken? I routinely had to go from 1 end of those zones to the other. It would have significantly added to the time I spent doing those things. And yes, they could get around some of that extra time spent by putting some well placed flight paths in the zone, but wouldn't that just completely defeat the purpose of not having a flying mount, if I'm going to be spending my time flying across the zone all the time anyway?

    So from my point of view all this no-flying will accomplish is that I'll be spending more time AFK while on flight paths and I'll spend large amounts of my time traveling instead of getting productive things done, meaning my possibly limited playing time just got sucked up by travel time, instead of playing time.

    (And I'll cut in on any nonsense about traveling being just as much part of the fun and the experience, cause it rarely is. There's a reason you are trying to get somewhere, being held up from that goal by random encounters just means I'm not getting done what I set out to do. That's a waste of time, even if it looks lovely while I am being held up, and I get a deep appreciation for all the mobs I aggro.)

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