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Upcoming Siege of Orgrimmar Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
In the upcoming patch 5.4.7, we will be making a few small adjustments to the 10-player Heroic Garrosh encounter. There a few factors that contribute to a disparity between the difficulty of the encounter in 10-player mode versus 25-player mode, and these changes are intended to help correct for those differences.

We are slightly reducing Garrosh's health in all phases (by roughly 5%).

The fight as a whole is a series of hard DPS checks, where failing to meet certain benchmarks makes things tremendously harder if not impossible, but extra DPS above and beyond that threshold doesn't necessarily help all that much. We're seeing some kills (a minority, but some groups nonetheless) feeling the need to single-heal the fight even at this point, and that has a number of negative gameplay and social issues. We can't really prevent single-healing (other than by increasing the outgoing damage, which isn't an option at this point), but this change should at least make it so that no one feels they need to single-heal in order to meet the various checks, without lessening the coordination requirements of the rest of the fight.

We are reducing the health of Minions of Y'Shaarj (by roughly 10%).

Most 25-player groups are able to kite and otherwise control the Minions thanks to the additional available manpower, while 10-player groups generally have to kill them. This change should improve parity between modes by reducing the difficulty of this particular mechanic for 10-player groups.

We are increasing the clump size required to trigger an Iron Star in the final Heroic-only phase of the fight from 3 to 4.

Iron Star detection previously required 3 players on 10, and 8 on 25 (a standard ratio), but this causes a discrepancy when it comes to the overlap between Bombardment and Malice. Malice requires 2 soakers on 10H and 5 on 25H (again, a standard ratio), but this means that the total clump sizes required to handle Malice are actually 3 and 6 respectively, such that a 25-player group could cover soaking Malice #4 (which fully overlaps with Bombardment) without triggering Iron Stars, whereas a 10-player group generally could not. This change should, like the rest, increase parity when it comes to this mechanic.

"Why did you wait this long to make these changes?"

We're very conservative when it comes to reducing the difficulty of a Heroic final boss, since the entire point of such encounters is to represent the pinnacle of raiding challenge. For most of the initial months of the patch, the sample size of players killing Garrosh on each difficulty was too small to draw meaningful conclusions about the relative difficulty on 10 vs. 25, but now we've reached a point where it's clear that there's a problem, so we're taking the above actions.

"Thanks Blizz, way to nerf the only hard fight left in the game..."

Sorry, we do wish we'd gotten the tuning right in the first place. 10-Heroic Garrosh will still be plenty hard -- this is just bringing the encounter in line with its 25-player counterpart.

Challenge Mode End of Season Early Warning
Keep in mind that Challenge Modes are not going away with Patch 5.4.7, but with another patch before Warlords of Draenor.
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Countless adventurers continue to brave the most trying versions of Mists of Pandaria dungeons, but the clock is ticking. This “season” of Challenge Modes will be coming to an end with the upcoming release of a patch prior to the expansion’s release.

Challenge Modes are designed to offer as close to a “normalized” difficulty as possible, and they’re tuned to be tough to master. With Warlords of Draenor’s class changes, itemization changes (e.g. the removal of Hit and Expertise), and—of course—increased level cap on the horizon, the difficulty of Mists of Pandaria’s dungeons will no longer be tuned the same as they were. In the spirit of fair play, when the aforementioned patch is released a little while before the new expansion launches, the current slate of Challenge Mode dungeons will no longer be available, and the achievements they award will be converted to Feats of Strength. The reward items will still be available for purchase by those who qualified prior to the end of the season, but it will not be possible for new players to earn those rewards going forward.

If you still need to earn your Undaunted title, Ancestral Phoenix, or class-specific Transmogrification sets, now’s the time to get out there and prove your worth. In Warlords of Draenor, an entirely new set of Challenge Modes will be available . . . and with them an array of new rewards for you to earn. Until then, stay sharp!

Blue Tweets
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
PvP
The large conquest cap is great, but it's hard to gear up when fighting fully geared people in the 1200 bracket. any fix in future?
Rating represents your ability to win/lose the match. Gear is a part of that. If you're losing at 1200 regularly, you aren't 1200. (holinka)
Yes, but it sucks gearing up with a large cap when you fight people who tank their rating down to 1200 by spamming leave que
in the future, people who leave queue before entering combat will be unable to queue again for a short time (holinka)

Why is there no 'Valor of the Ancients' buff for conquest when you fully cap a toon?
We don't think it would be good for the game for a number of reasons. First, who has to cap first? Your "main"? Who's that? (holinka)
Does it matter who caps first?
Yes since some characters could have lower caps. (holinka)

sure we get a hp increase with new gear, but first few weeks of the new season we wont have that extra HP.
Neither will the damage dealers, who will be doing less damage due to increase in resilience. (holinka)
why does bandages get affected by battle fatigue when they are a static number?
It is a heal and so it was affected by all healing modifiers. Considering ignoring BF but not other mods. (holinka)

Hey btw, just saw a bug where ToK game didn't end after hitting 1600 points. Took another 35sec or so to register.
I've seen something similar in EotS. We're doing a lot of work on bgs that will fix these problems...in Warlords. (holinka)

any chance rep gains will be modified(warsong and ab)?
It's on a long long list of things to look at, but not a priority, sorry. (holinka)

PvP very CC frustrating. 1 CC into 2nd then 3rd. When you can do something you're sub 20%hp or dead. Fixes prior to WoD?
No plans before WoD. Seeing how disruptive the changes we have made can be to balance, I'm glad we're waiting. (holinka)

How do you plan to help specs like ret/spriest and dk ams/conversion when you increase battle f atigue
By giving them (and everyone else) gear that is 28 ilevels higher. (holinka)
ret, sp, dk defensive weakens everytime BF getting buffed. unlike warr, rogue, mage, hunter defensives
That's incorrect (holinka)
How is that incorrect? Battle fatigue will bring AMS down while damage goes up meaning it will absorb even less
A lot of classes were named in that tweet. (holinka)

so battle fatigue is shitting disc priest how have they not got anything to compensate to be viable again, holy is so lame
Care to elaborate on why you think battle fatigue affects Disc more than any other healer spec? (holinka)

Misc
will characters still auto learn new abilities? or do u have to go to a trainer and learn them? kinda miss that system
It's an interesting question. Going to the trainer feels more visceral. But going back to a major city is a burden while questing. (Celestalon)

Fan Art Update
The World of Warcraft Fan Art Section has been updated with one new piece of fan artwork.

This article was originally published in forum thread: Upcoming Siege of Orgrimmar Changes, Challenge Mode End of Season, Blue Tweets, Art started by chaud View original post
Comments 53 Comments
  1. glycerethe's Avatar
    Instead of nerfing 10, why not make 25man as difficult if not more difficult than 10man since 25man guilds always laugh at 10man raiding at being the easier/joke of end-game raiding.

    Funny thing Paragon still managed to beat it with lower ilevel than Method.
  1. alkyd's Avatar
    so they will remove CMs on 5.4.7 patch? Is it pre-expansion patch or will it be 6.0??
  1. Rykos's Avatar
    Does this mean Ahead of the curve will be taken out too or not yet?
  1. Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    According to wowprogress.com there's 250 guilds that has killed Garrosh heroic 10man.
    According to wowprogress.com there's 219 guilds that has killed Garrosh heroic 25man.

    Nerfs to 10man, totally legit.
    I mean seriously?
  1. Renerock's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    According to wowprogress.com there's 250 guilds that has killed Garrosh heroic 10man.
    According to wowprogress.com there's 219 guilds that has killed Garrosh heroic 25man.

    Nerfs to 10man, totally legit.
    I mean seriously?
    This is the most idiotic statement I think I've seen in quite some time,

    Are you even remotely aware of how many 10 man guilds there are versus 25 man guilds? No? Didn't think so.
  1. Siddown's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    According to wowprogress.com there's 250 guilds that has killed Garrosh heroic 10man.
    According to wowprogress.com there's 219 guilds that has killed Garrosh heroic 25man.

    Nerfs to 10man, totally legit.
    I mean seriously?
    According to wowprogress.com there are 660 guilds that have completed 13/14 SoO heroic 10 man
    According to wowprogress.com there are 334 guilds that have completed 13/14 SoO heroic 25 man

    It's almost like there is a population imbalance between 10 and 25 man guilds doing Heroic SoO...
  1. Mulch's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by alkyd View Post
    so they will remove CMs on 5.4.7 patch? Is it pre-expansion patch or will it be 6.0??
    "Keep in mind that Challenge Modes are not going away with Patch 5.4.7, but with another patch before Warlords of Draenor."
  1. Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Renerock View Post
    This is the most idiotic statement I think I've seen in quite some time,

    Are you even remotely aware of how many 10 man guilds there are versus 25 man guilds? No? Didn't think so.
    How many of the 10man guilds are even considering themselves a "heroic guild", by that I mean killing everything heroic while ahead of the curve is still obtainable? There's WAY, WAY more 10man guilds because it's the easier format to set up and run for casual raid / guild leaders. (not claiming 10man players are worse than 25man, it's a time/effort thing).
    Of the serious 10man guilds pretty much all of them have killed Garrosh already, same with 25man. Stop protecting 10man like it's your child or something, just because something is more popular (in terms of how many does it) doesn't make it right to judge them all under one. Example: Most of JB fans are 10-16 years old. Let's just say that all fans are that age group and make things equal for them. No... There's different levels of how "belieber" you are etc. Just as you can be 10man and not really care about progress and you can be 10man and die for progress.
  1. Renerock's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    How many of the 10man guilds are even considering themselves a "heroic guild", by that I mean killing everything heroic while ahead of the curve is still obtainable? There's WAY, WAY more 10man guilds because it's the easier format to set up and run for casual raid / guild leaders. (not claiming 10man players are worse than 25man, it's a time/effort thing).
    Of the serious 10man guilds pretty much all of them have killed Garrosh already, same with 25man. Stop protecting 10man like it's your child or something, just because something is more popular (in terms of how many does it) doesn't make it right to judge them all under one. Example: Most of JB fans are 10-16 years old. Let's just say that all fans are that age group and make things equal for them. No... There's different levels of how "belieber" you are etc. Just as you can be 10man and not really care about progress and you can be 10man and die for progress.

    You totally just let my point just fly over your head, not sure what point you are trying to make with that fruitless dribble of a post. Are you really going to sit there and try to arbitrarily diminish the amount of 13/14H 10m guilds working on Garrosh based on your untenable statement that "some" of them might be too casual to even attempt Garrosh?

    "According to wowprogress.com there are 660 guilds that have completed 13/14 SoO heroic 10 man
    According to wowprogress.com there are 334 guilds that have completed 13/14 SoO heroic 25 man

    It's almost like there is a population imbalance between 10 and 25 man guilds doing Heroic SoO..."

    Of course there are going to be more 10 man kills then 25 man kills on heroic garrosh, that doesn't mean the fight is easier on 10 man, since there are almost double the amount of 10m vs 25m guilds working on him. Hence the nerfs. Have you even done the fight? Are you aware of how massive an advantage it is in the first intermission to have the amount of stuns/silences that 25m has for the adds? How advantageous it is to be able to bullshit your way out of all the adds after empowered whirling that 25m can? The sheer amount of CDs for the whirling? To be able to soak Malice #4 without having to go to extraneous and lethal ways of doing so, potentially hitting a "soft" enrage with him casting a trillion adds at 100 energy shortly after malice #5 that 10m have to deal with if your dps is short or if extra energy is gained during malice #4?

    Some fights are harder on 25m, some fights are harder on 10m. Garrosh is harder on 10m.
  1. Dawnseven's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by alkyd View Post
    so they will remove CMs on 5.4.7 patch? Is it pre-expansion patch or will it be 6.0??
    They specifically said not 5.4.7. Since we get x.0 immediately before a new expansion's release date "another patch" before release of WoD should probably be read as the "pre-expansion patch" which should be 6.0. (In MoP we got 5.0 (5.0.4 technically) on August 28th. The expansion itself actually released on September 25th. This is how it's always worked.)
  1. Siddown's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Of the serious 10man guilds pretty much all of them have killed Garrosh already, same with 25man.
    But twice as many guilds have cleared 13/14 Heroic in 10 man than 25. So clearly those doing 400 or so guilds that have done 13/14 heroic 10 man are "serious".

    If you are not going to use percentages when comparing non-equal sized groups, you are doing it wrong. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're doing it because you don't understand math v. doing it in an attempt intentionally mislead people.

    @renerock, not sure why you are quoting me when clearly I am agreeing with you. I was simply showing that twice as many guilds are at 13/14 in 10 man v. 25 man, so the fact that an equal number of guilds have finished 14/14 shows that the Heroic 10 man Garrosh isn't balanced correctly.
  1. Bantokar's Avatar
    Who cares about a nerf to "watch youtube vid kill boss" content.

    The severe level of retardation in the PVP responses is much more worrying.
  1. Doctorant's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Renerock View Post

    Of course there are going to be more 10 man kills then 25 man kills on heroic garrosh, that doesn't mean the fight is easier on 10 man, since there are almost double the amount of 10m vs 25m guilds working on him. Hence the nerfs. Have you even done the fight? Are you aware of how massive an advantage it is in the first intermission to have the amount of stuns/silences that 25m has for the adds? How advantageous it is to be able to bullshit your way out of all the adds after empowered whirling that 25m can? The sheer amount of CDs for the whirling? To be able to soak Malice #4 without having to go to extraneous and lethal ways of doing so, potentially hitting a "soft" enrage with him casting a trillion adds at 100 energy shortly after malice #5 that 10m have to deal with if your dps is short or if extra energy is gained during malice #4?
    Quite comprehensive analysis. I might add that kiting the adds is not trivial in 25.

    However, other points made, namely, 1st intermission silences and 4th malice are the gamebreakers here.

    I just cannot understand how the devs didn't see the difference in the number of soakers compared to the number of players required to spawn an iron star. There is absolutely no logic, and it makes the hardest part of P4 much much much harder for 10man guilds. I personally can't understand why it that alone wasn't changed at the beginning of progress.

    Other nerfs are justified to be saved to this point of the progress curve.
  1. kidsafe's Avatar
    10-man Garrosh was about right in my opinion. The issue is 25-man Garrosh being vastly undertuned to the point where you can simple stack for Empowered Whirling Corruptions and eat all the subsequent explosions from spawning Minions. With that in mind, I agree with the clump check change, but not necessarily with the HP nerfs. It seems a more equivalent adjustment would have been to make Empower Whirling Corruptions deal a lot less damage in 10-man.
  1. Deliverer's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by alkyd View Post
    so they will remove CMs on 5.4.7 patch? Is it pre-expansion patch or will it be 6.0??
    no. they are going to remove them with 6.0 which is pre xpack patch. we are still months from it.
  1. Alyxanna's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Renerock View Post
    Some fights are harder on 25m, some fights are harder on 10m. Garrosh is harder on 10m.
    Arguments like this and insults around them are a primary reason why I can't wait for WoD and 20-man Mythic raiding to start.
  1. Doctorant's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by kidsafe View Post
    It seems a more equivalent adjustment would have been to make Empower Whirling Corruptions deal a lot less damage in 10-man.
    That would encourage even more to 1 heal the fight which was the reason Blizz wanted to nerf Garrosh HP.
  1. arcaneshot's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    If you are not going to use percentages when comparing non-equal sized groups, you are doing it wrong.
    If you have to use absolute percentages to compare the two you're also doing it wrong thanks to factoring in a portion of the sample which doesn't intend to defeat Heroic Garrosh-- in both groups.
  1. Renerock's Avatar
    My apologies Siddown haha I was just reemphasizing your post for him, didn't mean it to imply disagreement
  1. Moraven's Avatar
    I always thought the whole point of CM was to be able to have them in the future with every expansion release and not just raid tiers. /shrug

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