MMO-Champion - Dev Watercooler: Building Healthy Gameplay
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Twitter Followup Q&A
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Cataclysm Healing
Looking forward to the changes. I think this is going to vastly widen the gap between low-skill & high-skill players, thoughts?
So the top 20% go "awesome" and the bottom 30% shelve their healing spec and join the 2 hr que for 5 mans
I see it as a mandatory design constraint that the so-called "bottom 30%" can still have a fun healing experience. (WatcherDev)
It may give exceptional healers more room to distinguish themselves. But we plan to avoid the pitfalls of early Cata healing. (WatcherDev)
Can you elaborate on this? (Given the 140 character limit, that is...)
Mana regen was a huge issue early Cata, along with overtuning. Created a trap for many healers; too easy to OOM. (WatcherDev)

So, Cata all over again, unless you're homogenizing the classes so every healing spec has a triage-capable toolkit?
It's possible for every healing spec to have a triage-capable toolkit without every healing spec feeling/playing the same. (WatcherDev)
I'd argue that HoTs are an essential triage spell, for the injured player who probably isn't taking more damage soon. (WatcherDev)
I would like to think so, but triage and HoTs don't play well together, and Druids are all about the HoTs.
Also a world in which more people are partially injured more of the time is a world in which HoTs can do much more effective healing (WatcherDev)
I'm also a "survivor" of Cata's healing mindset, so I'm colored by those experiences, which were highly painful.
Completely understood. We're definitely not approaching this saying "Cata healing was perfect, let's do that again!" (WatcherDev)

Atanae the core problem of Cata healing had to do with LFD and the GO GO GO mentality of players from WOTLK
Core problem was high damage output paired with weak regen in blues. Felt better in epics by 4.2 but the damage was done. (WatcherDev)

healing felt terrible when Cata started, oom often, feeling behind the 8ball every pull. We wont be revisiting that again r we?
Nope. Cata's healing had upsides and downsides. We're capturing the upsides, and preventing the downsides. (Celestalon)
For example, triage healing is good. Caring about which heals you cast is good. Easily going OOM in low gear is not good. (Celestalon)
On the flip side, how do you make it so that these changes aren't irrelevant by the last tier due to outgearing?
By giving healers more room to grow with added regen. Right now you become time-limited, not mana-limited, on some classes. (Celestalon)
Interesting - I assume you mean added regen earlier on, being removed in later tiers? I appreciate your response.
Take current MW for example, in first tier. Now double her mana regen. How much does her throughput go up? Not a lot. (Celestalon)

Triage healing wasn't fun in Cata, doubt it will be fun in WOD. Feels like a constant emergency, stressful.
On the contrary, that's what we're trying to get away from. Currently, we have to hit everyone so hard, that anyone who has to tank virtually any damage is in immediate danger of dying. Constant emergency healing. That's because you have the ability to heal someone back up to full from low health so fast. We aren't just going to nerf healing and continue tuning incoming damage the way we have been. Damage is going to be slower; you'll have time to heal people back up without emergency heals. (Celestalon)

Absorbs
If everyone is constantly in a state of partially injured, don't absorbs inherently lose a lot of value?
Yes. (Celestalon)

are we going to be sat out for absorb healers due to no mobility at all, loss of our utility (raw power)? very worried
When people are injured more often, absorbs don't trump other heals nearly as much. Healer spec balance is important to us. (WatcherDev)

Instant Heals
The nerfs to instant heals might be overkill and hard to balance. Isn't longer CDs a better solution for them?
Longer CDs lowers your throughput, which is not the goal of that change. A cast time does not lower throughput, but rather mobility. (Celestalon)

mainly wondering from PvP side. all instant heals getting a cast time? Or is the goal like 1or2 instant s per class?
There'll still be some instant heals, just not as many. (Celestalon)

Smart Heals
"smart"?
Probably will have a target cap of 6 for better client/server performance. Will hit 6 random injured players. (Celestalon)

Wouldn't turning smart heals into "not-so-smart heals" make them too random and unpredictable?
That's the point. It also emphasizes single target heals in supplement. (Celestalon)

Smart heals are changing, does that mean you will be changing or pruning abilities like healing stream/tide and healing rain?
It's safe to say that we're changing all smart heals. (Celestalon)

Regen and Items
Will the mana pool for healers change relative to regen? 4m fights vs 10m fights with the same initial mana is pretty different.
Intentionally so. Fight duration is a strong differentiator between fights for healers, and will stay. (Celestalon)
are we possibly going to see haste affecting global cooldown? Classes with instant dps spells loses dps with it not reducing it.
Haste already does reduce the GCD for spells, as a general rule. (Celestalon)

With spirit being buffed, it just means you need less spirit on gear, but is it still primary mana regen?
Baseline regen will be higher, Spirit will still be good where you can get it. (WatcherDev)

Regarding the healing changes, won't gear for a healer matter less now? We already gear dps first as it is..
No, this will not make gear matter less for healers. (Celestalon)

so healers are gonna be the the last to be geared in a raid group cause they don't benefit as much on gear?
No. These changes aren't making gear less valuable for healers. Can fit healing progression in a smaller regen-space. (Celestalon)

Healing
If these healing changes are going in with the 6.0 pre-patch, will Thok become significantly harder w/o instants? Retuning him?
We'll do a tuning pass on SoO once 6.0 changes are finalized to make sure nothing gets harder as a result of systems changes. (WatcherDev)

How do you plan to counter that "players <100% is fine" (no instant deaths) puts more responsibility on healers, less on DDs?
Avoidable damage will still kill you if you fail to get out of the fire. But now we can be more moderate with unavoidable damage (WatcherDev)

Just to confirm are the healing spells that are listed the ONLY healing spells (have you removed lifebloom/swiftmend)?
No, those are just some of your healing spells. That's not a complete list of all heals, by any means. Just examples. (Celestalon)

*Appears* and *Will Actually* be nerfed; brought down to be in line with all the other nerfed heals is still power loss
%-based heals will not be nerfed any more or less than all other heals in general. (Celestalon)

Will abilities like death pact be nerfed? Currently feels weak in pvp however the blog said percentage based spells=nerfed.
That's a complex paragraph; give it another read. The blog is explaining why they'll *appear* to be nerfed, but aren't actually. (Celestalon)
*Appears* and *Will Actually* be nerfed; brought down to be in line with all the other nerfed heals is still power loss
%-based heals will not be nerfed any more or less than all other heals in general. (Celestalon)

W/ health pools scaling w/ healing power, how will you make healers feel more powerful as the expac progresses?
Faster casts, able to do more expensive heals, crit more, able to use more cooldowns, more mastery effects, multistrike more. (Celestalon)
So damage as % of total health will increase each tier just not to the extent of previous expacs?
It will increase a bit, but not remotely as much as previous expacs. 20%->40%, instead of 20%->70%, maybe ballpark. (Celestalon)

When healers can top off critically injured players in seconds, encounters have to try to kill players before healers can react. Not ideal. (WatcherDev)
no, but when healing becomes harder, it does not become more fun. Thats what happened at the beginning of cata. Wasnt good.
The goal isn't to make healing harder, actually. I'd say it's to replace testing reaction time with testing decision-making. (WatcherDev)

Low throughput heals served a role of feeling like the auto attack for healers. Do healers frequently do nothing during combat?
Your efficient single-target heal (Healing Wave, Holy Light, etc.) should still be a mainstay. Unrelated: Big fan of Healer:ALitD (WatcherDev)
Having a heal you can always be casting without worrying about the mana cost seems important to prevent healers just watching.
Agreed, I see the value there. For some, a DPS filler can work fine (free Lightning Bolt for shaman, Atonement for Disc, etc.). (WatcherDev)

PvP
Proc on crit effects could be nerfed to compensate. Or could just nerf other 2nd stats too
You'd have to double crit chance, which there isn't room for. The problem is just PvP burst; focused solution. (Celestalon)

So wait? the 200% Crit dmg and healing bonus is nerfed to 150% across the board?
150% crits is PvP only. Still 200% in PvE. (Celestalon)

Yeah, I can see how that could be interpreted both ways. : 150% crit, only PvP?
PvP only. (WatcherDev)
I.e. Will open orld PvP still see 200% crits? Or 150% against all players, anywhere?
150% against player-controlled units, anywhere. (Celestalon)
What about heals out in the world? How do you determine if they are PvP?
Same as Battle Fatigue does currently. (Celestalon)
so what happens in open world pvp? Does it look at PvP flag to determine crit #? Can I heal my questing group 200%
Same as current Battle Fatigue. It's based on whether they're engaged in PvP combat. (Celestalon)

You guys sure you want to fiddle w/crit instead of shaping burst (e.g. y=(x^3)/100)?
Burst in the abstract is often controlled. But crit is random and we need to keep the worst-case chain-crit combos in check. (WatcherDev)

Classes
Whats the point to add cast time for EF/LoD? We already have the worst mobility from all healers and you are still nerfing it .
We're bringing down mobility across the board, not just for you. (Celestalon)
Does that mean baseline movement from WW Monks and Feral Druids are going away?
I meant to healers, wasn't talking everyone. (Celestalon)

Also, is that 1.5s without haste? No more haste breakpoints, so does that mean it doesn't affect cast spd?
All of the cast times mentioned in the blog are pre-haste. Haste still increases cast speed. (Celestalon)

In 6.0+ monsters will hit harder, but my %-heal (and everyone else's heal) will be for less.
Yes, very much intentionally. That's not at all related to them being % heals though. (Celestalon)

how will the 150% crit affect crit heavy classes like mages, warriors and ele shamans?
Their sustained damage will feel higher relative to their burst damage. (holinka)

How do these healing changes affect tank self-heals? Will they be on some sort of CD or just not as effective as today?
Tank self heals are currently very much related to Vengeance, which we're changing (mentioned a lot about before). (Celestalon)

Healing bloggy didn't overtly touch on non-healer heals. Will those see proportional adjustments identical to healer heals?
Yes. Healing changes aren't restricted to just healers' heals. (Celestalon)
Is Gift of the Naaru going to be reduced to 12.5% instead of 25%?
Gift of the Naaru heals for 4% of your max HP, every 1sec, for 5sec. (Celestalon)
Is it instant cast?
Yes. (Celestalon)

Good moves I like them, I would like to see more class differences like we did with Pali and druid healers in TBC.
Agreed, though overspecialized niches are no good either. E.g. raiding resto druid in BC was often just rolling Lifebloom forever (WatcherDev)

Druid (Forums / Skills / WoD Talent Calculator)
Efflorescence is listed as a healing spell for druids. What happened to Shrooms & Swiftmend it was tied to
Efflorescence is on Shrooms baseline now. (Celestalon)

with removal of a lot of insta casts is NS staying? For resto or all specs?
Yes, but as per the aforementioned CC changes, it won't be usable on CC spells. (Celestalon)

Yeah, we talked about Innervate specifically in that context on Resto discussion.
Yeah, there's not a lot of gameplay involved currently with Innervate and similar. Hit it on cooldown... (Celestalon)

Is Efflorescence an active spell now?
No, it's just baseline attached to Shrooms. (Celestalon)
Ah ok. So referring to it as higher efficiency in WoD means using shrooms?
Yes. (Celestalon)

Will Rejuvenation and Lifebloom stay instant casts?
Yes. The only currently planned changed to cast times are the ones listed in the blog. (WatcherDev)

Monk (Forums / Skills / WoD Talent Calculator)
No mention of melee healing for Monks, can you tell us if we should get our hopes up or not?
Fistweaving (via Crane Stance) is still planned. (Celestalon)

What do you think if mistweavers picking up chi explosion and use it in place of uplift as it would not have a cast time?
It does have a cast time. (Celestalon)
Is it 1.5sec like Uplift is then?
Yes. (Celestalon)
Will Uplift and Chi Explosion Be able to cast instanlty while using it like Chi Surge and Enveloping Mist? Thanks for responding
Haven't decided yet. Mistweavers are seeing several interconnected changes, so evaluating any one in a vacuum is difficult. (Celestalon)

And Chi Explosion will not have a cast time for Windwalkers and Brewmasters correct?
Correct. (Celestalon)

Is Enveloping mists being removed or just not mentioned in the post? Without it MW lack a single target chi finisher.
Enveloping Mists is still there. (Celestalon)

Uplift is usually a monk's #1 or #2 throughput spells. Will its numbers be adjusted to reflect the new cast time?
Yes. (Celestalon)

when you say you're making smartheals more random, that makes me concerned about mistweavers! renewing mists even more clunky
Mistweavers will be seeing other improvements -- we're not looking to leave their effectiveness at the mercy of random jumps. (WatcherDev)

Paladin (Forums / Skills / WoD Talent Calculator)
Also if you plan to increase value single target heals . Any plan to change HP generations or we will have to spam HR anyway ?
Holy Radiance will not be your optimal way to generate Holy Power for single target healing. (Celestalon)

Why does it have Holy Light listed 4 hpally, but not Divine Light, when you said you're removing lowcost heals ie. Holy Light?
Divine Light has essentially been renamed to Holy Light. DL = big, efficient heal; Flash = big, fast, but less efficient heal (WatcherDev)

Heavily disagreeing on the need of a 1.5 sec cast time to EF/LoD. Paladins already feel immobile and this makes it worse
Maybe compared to monks and druids doing midair flips while they heal.... In any case, this is a starting point for beta iteration. (WatcherDev)

Priest (Forums / Skills / WoD Talent Calculator)
Why has divine star never been nerfed? 15sec cd, no DR. Disc was supposedly being nerfed, then DR was removed and SoO = broken.
Divine Star is probably the most overpowered spell in the game, currently. It will be nerfed in 6.0. (Celestalon)

Cautiously optimistic about the healing blog, but can you tell us what's the new Disc-only Holy Nova do?
Similar to what it does today, except decent, efficient healing. Damage still likely to be trivial. (Celestalon)
still just an explosion around you?
Yes. (Celestalon)
Cooldown like COH? Or spamable? 1.5 Cast time I assume....
No cooldown. Still deciding on instant vs 1.5s cast. (Celestalon)

Can you shed any light on the intention for Atonement healing? Intended only as filler or can it still be my main healing?
Atonement will not be as much healing throughput as normal healing. Does significant damage when you don't need as much healing. (Celestalon)

holy priest ---, reduced throughput, PoM Casttime, 90 Talent Cast Time - mana regen nerf - confused?!?
Mana regen nerf? Also we didn't reduce throughput; increased player health pools and buffed heals by less. Affects all healers (WatcherDev)
"and a new focus on efficiency decisions." which means holy priests with lack of efficient heals = regen prob(nerf wrong word)
Holy Priests will have as many efficient options as other healers. This is a broad set of changes that affects all specs. (WatcherDev)

Shaman (Forums / Skills / WoD Talent Calculator)
Is shaman healing output being rethought? Considering >80% of our healing is all smart healing. Also any spells getting casttime
Shaman has far fewer instant heals than most. And yes, between CH, HR, and HST, too much of a Shaman's throughput is smart atm. (WatcherDev)

Warlords of Draenor Dev Watercooler: Building Healthy Gameplay
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Last week, we talked about squishing stats and pruning unnecessary complexity as part of our ongoing design goals for World of Warcraft: Warlords of Draenor. This time, we'll look at a few topics all related to one vital element: health.

Player Health and Resilience
In the next expansion, we’re planning several interconnected changes designed to provide better-tuned gameplay for healers and improve the healing dynamic in PvP.

The high amount of base Resilience and Battle Fatigue in Mists of Pandaria currently causes characters to feel much weaker in PvP than they do in PvE. To address this disparity, we’re approaching Warlords of Draenor with the goal of shrinking that gap as much as possible. To reduce dependence on Resilience, we needed to increase player survivability against other players, and we chose to do this by essentially doubling (post-squish) player health.


On its own, that increase in health would make players more survivable in the world at large, so we’re also increasing creature damage and the effectiveness of healing spells to balance things out. The net result of these changes is that individual attacks will knock a smaller chunk off of a player’s health pool in PvP, but your survivability in PvE won’t be affected.

Doubling player health gave us room to reduce Resilience and Battle Fatigue, but our goal was to be able to remove them entirely. In order to achieve that, we’re also reducing PvP spike damage across the board by lowering Critical Damage and Critical Heals to 150% of their normal effect (down from 200%).

Our hope is that these changes allow us to reduce Base Resilience and Battle Fatigue to 0%. It’s possible that we’ll still find a need for some minor amount of Base Resilience and/or Battle Fatigue, and we’ll be testing these changes extensively and adjusting as needed.


Retuning Healing Spells

One of our goals for healing in Warlords of Draenor is to tone down the raw throughput of healers relative to the size of player health pools. Currently, as healers and their allies acquire better and better gear, the percentage of a player’s health that any given heal restores increases significantly. As a result, healers are able to refill health bars so fast that we have to make damage more and more “bursty” in order to challenge them. Ideally, we want players to spend some time below full health without having healers feel like the players they’re responsible for are in danger of dying at any moment. We also think that healer gameplay would be more varied, interesting, and skillful if your allies spent more time between 0% and 100%, rather than just getting damaged quickly to low health, forcing the healer to then scramble to get them back to 100% as quickly as possible.


To that end, we’re buffing heals less than we’re increasing creature damage. Heals will be deliberately less potent compared to health pools than before the item squish. Additionally, as gear improves, the scaling rates of health and healing will now be very similar, so the relative power of any given healing spell shouldn’t climb so much over the course of this expansion. For those concerned about what this means for raiding, don’t worry—we’re taking all of these changes into account when designing Raid content for Warlords of Draenor.

It’s also important to note that spells that heal based on a percentage of maximum health are being effectively buffed by the massive increase to player health pools, so we’re lowering those percentages to offset the effect. That may make them appear to have been nerfed—however, the net result is that those percentage-based heals stay about the same as before relative to other heals.

All of these changes apply to damage-absorption shields as well. Additionally, we're toning down the power of absorbs in general. When they get too strong, absorption effects are often used in place of direct healing instead of as a way to supplement it. We will, of course, take these changes into account when tuning specializations that rely heavily on absorbs, such as Discipline Priests.

We also took a look at healing spells that were passive or auto-targeted (so-called "smart" heals).

We want healers to care about who they're targeting and which heals they're using, because that makes healer gameplay more interactive and fun. To that end, we're reducing the healing of many passive and auto-targeted heals, and making smart heals a little less smart. Smart heals will now randomly pick any injured target within range instead of always picking the most injured target. Priority will still be given to players over pets, of course.

Another of our goals for healing in this expansion is to strike a better balance between single-target and multi-target healing spells. We've taken a close look at the mana efficiency of our multi-target heals, and in many cases, we're reducing their efficiency, usually by reducing the amount they heal. Sometimes, but more rarely, raising their mana cost was a better decision. We want players to use multi-target heals, but they should only be better than their single-target equivalents when they heal more than two players without any overhealing. This way, players will face an interesting choice between whether to use a single-target heal or a multi-target heal based on the situation.

Finally, we're removing the low-throughput, low-mana-cost heals like Nourish, Holy Light, Heal, and Healing Wave, because we think that while they do add complexity, they don’t truly add depth to healing gameplay. (We’re also renaming some spells to re-use those names. For example, Greater Healing Wave is being redubbed Healing Wave.) However, we still want healers to think about their mana when deciding which heal to cast, and so the mana costs and throughputs of many spells are being altered to give players a choice between spells with lower throughput and lower cost versus spells with higher throughput and higher costs. Here are some examples from each healer class:


Druid Higher Efficiency: Healing Touch, Rejuvenation, Efflorescence
Druid Higher Throughput: Regrowth, Wild Growth

Monk Higher Efficiency: Soothing Mist, Renewing Mist
Monk Higher Throughput: Surging Mist, Spinning Crane Kick

Paladin Higher Efficiency: Holy Light, Holy Shock, Word of Glory, Light of Dawn
Paladin Higher Throughput: Flash of Light, Holy Radiance

Priest Higher Efficiency: Greater Heal, Circle of Healing, Prayer of Mending, Holy Nova (new Discipline-only version), Penance
Priest Higher Throughput: Flash Heal, Prayer of Healing

Shaman Higher Efficiency: Healing Wave, Riptide, Healing Rain
Shaman Higher Throughput: Healing Surge, Chain Heal

All of this discussion of efficiency may cause most healers to start worrying about mana regeneration and their mana pool. To allay those concerns, we’ve increased base mana regen a great deal at early gear levels, while having it scale up less at later gear levels. This will make all of these changes play well even in early content such as Heroic Dungeons and the first tier of Raid content, and also play well in the final Raid tier without mana and efficiency becoming irrelevant due to extremely high regeneration values.

That’s a lot of big changes for healers: reduced throughput, more triage, less powerful “smart” heals, weaker absorbs, fewer spells, and a new focus on efficiency decisions. We’re confident that we can apply lessons learned from previous expansions to make this the best healer experience yet: more dynamic, engaging, non-punishing, and frankly a lot more fun.


Instant-Cast Heals


Over time, healers have gained a bigger and bigger arsenal of heals that they can cast while on the move, which removes the inherent cost that movement is intended to have for them, while also limiting players’ ability to counter healing in PvP. This left silences and crowd control (which we’re trying to curb—see "Pruning the Garden of War") as the only ways to actually limit an enemy player's healing output. We're still preserving the option to instantly heal, but are reducing the number of instant-cast healing abilities overall. Here are some examples:

Druid
  • Wild Growth (Restoration) now has a 1.5-second cast time.

Monk
  • Uplift (Mistweaver) now has a 1.5-second cast time.

Paladin
  • Eternal Flame and Word of Glory now each have a 1.5-second cast time when specced Holy.
  • Light of Dawn now has a 1.5-second cast time.

Priest
  • Cascade, Divine Star, and Halo now each have a 1.5-second cast time.
  • Prayer of Mending now has a 1.5-second cast time.

All of these changes taken together are intended to make gameplay more consistent between PvE and PvP, and invigorate healers with more dynamic gameplay.

These are only some of the many changes that you’ll be seeing as we continue development, and what we’ve shared so far is only one piece of a much larger puzzle. We hope that as we share more with you here, on the official site, the forums, and on Twitter, you’ll get a good understanding of what’s to come in Warlords of Draenor and the direction we’re working toward. As always, keep in mind that any of this information could change over the course of the testing process. We look forward to seeing your constructive feedback!
This article was originally published in forum thread: Dev Watercooler: Building Healthy Gameplay started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 395 Comments
  1. Neoz's Avatar
    In any case, this is a starting point for beta iteration... (WatcherDev)
    Still deciding on instant vs 1.5s cast... (Celestalon)
    The QQ from healers and worries about potential lack of healers in WOD will be too much, these will never make it live
  1. Valarius's Avatar
    People have to realise that the whole game is tuned around healers.

    Currently in MoP, healing is ridiculously bursty and "smart". The result is that bosses need to deal significant damage to the raid (and the tanks, who are once again able to be nearly 1-shot by certain bosses), which means everyone has stupidly high HP, which means DPS burst damage is also insane to be able to kill anything in PvP.

    When healing is slower, more strategic and mana throttled, everything else can be less. Bosses don't need to deal millions of damage per hit, tanks don't need ultra high health, dps don't need insane burst. It makes for a healthier game. While seeing a huge heal crit and loads of HPS on your meter might be "fun", it affects every other area of the game negatively.
  1. Heathy's Avatar
    bleh i don't understand how nerfing healers into the ground is supposed to make it more fun to play :/

    you can tell they don't really have a clue about what ppl want when you read something along the lines of.

    'we want healers to make skilled decisions'

    and then

    'we are giving you a huge boost to early regen'

    great so you want us to make smart decisions but, in the end they won't really matter because of the regen. or they won't matter at first but then you'll hit the regen wall and go 'holy shit this style of play i have been using from 90-100 was working fine, now it sucks'.

    then you have the 'heals won't scale with damage' so gearing up won't have the feeling that your actually doing any better.

    meh if i even bother staying for another expansion so far it looks like ill be changing my main role. to me it sounds basically the same as cata, but with less instant casts.

    time will obviously tell how this pans out but i want fun fluid healing with more endurance based boss fights, instead of strict calculated 5 min burns where the whole raid is spiking between 10 and 100%. challenging is one thing but this is something else.

    in the end i'm just tired of having to relearn how to play my class after 9 years. its like this is supposed to be a selling point 'forget what you know welcome to the new expansion where we revert you to noob status and you get to spend the first month learning everything all over again for the umpteenth time'.
  1. Granyala's Avatar
    No they don't have to remove scaling. They just need to make sure it's appropriate, so that healing/DPS does not outscale HP.
    If you don't outscale the others HP, you will feel no improvement of your character.

    I seriously do not understand what is so hard to grasp about this concept.

    Unlike tanks, who see the hits they withstand getting bigger, healers don't care about the absolute numbers of their heals, because they do not have the time to actually watch the numbers.
    They care about "how much does the player health bar move when I cast X" and "how often can I cast X before I'm oom".

    If Blizzard reduces scaling on both fronts to a tiny amount, the player will get gear, but won't notice much difference.
  1. Snorlax's Avatar
    Cataclysm saw the biggest rate of sub losses for any time period of the game, yeah we should totally go back to that style of play.

    Suddenly my excitement for WoD has waned a decent bit.
  1. Tomana's Avatar
    Blizzard's capacity to walk on the same rake more than once is astonishing.
  1. Emerald's Avatar
    Overall sounds realy good to me.
    The 1,5s cast time on some of the instant heals will feel akward in the beginning but we will get used to it and yes we all know that this is necessery.
    Looking forward to test this bring on the beta its about time!!
  1. maomoa's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Neoz View Post
    The QQ from healers and worries about potential lack of healers in WOD will be too much, these will never make it live
    I like how my Disc Priest plays. I enjoy the movement I am afforded with my heals. Yes there are times when I sit and have to turret say for big damaging effects or if I'm just filling time, but for the most part I can wonder free without greatly affecting my throughput. I play this game because I like the playstyle, but reverting back to turret disc with Blizzard pushing me to use the Heal Spell! is not what I am looking to do with my time.

    I'm exploring games like Wild Star and ESO because those games thrive on active combat.

    Even playing shadow for my guild, I enjoy that I can do great damage and still have a bit of mobility. Running FDCL might not be completely optimal, but it sure as shit beats turreting mind flay. The change they are proposing seems to take that away for healing.
  1. Siddown's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    If you don't outscale the others HP, you will feel no improvement of your character.

    I seriously do not understand what is so hard to grasp about this concept.

    Unlike tanks, who see the hits they withstand getting bigger, healers don't care about the absolute numbers of their heals, because they do not have the time to actually watch the numbers.
    They care about "how much does the player health bar move when I cast X" and "how often can I cast X before I'm oom".

    If Blizzard reduces scaling on both fronts to a tiny amount, the player will get gear, but won't notice much difference.
    You are taking a much too simplistic view of this. First, you are assuming characters completely scale in perfect unison with one another (which doesn't happen until the complete end of content when everyone is fully kitted out in gear), and you are assuming all enemies (PvE or PvP a like) are completely identical. As you gear up, current content will become easier (in PvE anyway), allowing you to tackle newer content (what's my DPS on Patchwerk!!!"), in PvP the game won't change as much as there won't be parts of the parts of the expansion where Healing > Burst then Burst > Healing, instead it should be a bit more balanced for the life time of the expansion. This promotes a more even game play that is probably a lot easier to balance, which is what most PvP players want. They don't want even new gear iteration completely changing the game, and in PvE players want to know that if they gear up they will be able to handle the next Tier of Raids.

    The idea that while scaling Blizzard (or anyone) could completely balance 30+ specs to exactly consistent with gear scaling is also a bit of pipe dream anyway, but that's a different issue altogether.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by maomoa View Post
    I'm exploring games like Wild Star and ESO because those games thrive on active combat.
    These forums are great. In the past, we like talk about all the bad changes Blizzard makes (or has made) and how they directly reflect their dropping subscriptions. How they catered to casuals, how they made the game easy mode, etc.

    Yet now they want to propose making healing a lot more like it was back when the game subscriptions were at it's peak, yet people keep saying they want to quit the game because it sucks.

    We can't have it both ways, we can't pine for the old days one day, then threaten to quit when they acknowledge their mistakes and propose to fix it.
  1. Lil's Avatar
    I've not played WoW in 4 months, but was determined to re-sub for WoD.
    But seeing that they're essentially trying to bring back cata healing and "prune" a lot of stuff, WoD is probably not for me.

    Why do they try to reinvent the wheel each expasion to make it more angular and sqeaky? Cata healing was sh*t in the beginning, Pandaria faction grind was sh*t and now they're trying Cata healing again. Also their stance on "casters need less instants and mobility" grinds my gears. This is so 2005! Casters need more mobility, not less. Maybe make them cast-on-the move and thus interruptable like lock and shaman spells, but being a shadow priest for example makes you want to slit your wrists whenever any kind of movement is required, be it PvE or PvP.

    (In b4 "why do you visit a WoW site then?": It's because I was hyped to try the new expansion after having not played in months. But seeing that they're planning on repeating their old mistakes, I'm probably not going to.)
  1. cityguy193's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    1. Pick a class with a Healer Spec
    2. Spec Healer as your secondary spec
    3. Queue For Dunge...oh sh!t, insta pop!
    4. ???
    5. Profit
    But you forgot about the healing part, where you have to play a healer in a pug in a harder dungeon, with now mana issues to worry about. If cata is any indication, it would be that healers would quit playing healers in mass, or the competent healers would just stop using random que again.
  1. ELYPOP's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by azurrei View Post
    A) that could be a fury warrior unless that is pally tier I don't recognize offhand from the SS

    B) the new Crusader class in Diablo 3 can use a 1h or 2h MH + shield...maybe they are adding that for protection paladins (warriors too?)
    A) That's a Paladin PvP gearset. Wrathful Gladiator.

    B) That'd be weird for gameplay. Maybe the person who made the image didn't realise?
  1. peterpan007's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    Cataclysm saw the biggest rate of sub losses for any time period of the game, yeah we should totally go back to that style of play.
    The drop in subscription was many factors - and from what I recall alot players found the content to difficult. This was mainly on dungeons and raids difficulty and the issues with pigging these.

    Since Cata we now have LFR, which is tuned to be passable by "casual" players. In addition normal mode dungeons will be much like (or easier) than MoP level 90 dungeons.

    So WoD doesnt appear to be locking out or excluding "casual players" ie Normal dungeons, LFR, normal scenario, etc
  1. Snorlax's Avatar
    The drop in subscription was many factors - and from what I recall alot players found the content to difficult. This was mainly on dungeons and raids difficulty and the issues with pigging these.

    Since Cata we now have LFR, which is tuned to be passable by "casual" players. In addition normal mode dungeons will be much like (or easier) than MoP level 90 dungeons.

    So WoD doesnt appear to be locking out or excluding "casual players" ie Normal dungeons, LFR, normal scenario, etc
    The sub loss stemmed from a lot of things true. Let's just take this post and the one about getting rid of realm firsts as an example. They want to bring back the Cata triage healing style which means that since the every other role get's balanced around healing, as they've said it means that everything else will have to go back to Cata style. I fully grasp that LFR is meant to be a "casual" alternative except Casual doesn't mean bad it means they have other things to do. Except that ties into the Realm Firsts, sure it might have inspired some negative gameplay but over all it spurred rivalry and competition a.k.a. elements of community. So we have a return to the travesty that was Cata's first tier while trying to throw under the bus even more elements of community.

    I mean I'm not saying that they can't design the game however they want too, doesn't mean that I have to approve or not see that making things annoying i.e. mana regen does not actually make them more difficult.

    We'll see but I'm absolutely not down for Cata 2.0 so I'll throw a pre-order out the window and still say that I'll probably be getting this within the first week but my interest has gone from rising to declining for the first time since the announcement so take that as you will. I have to go sleep on a route and block foot traffic now.
  1. Geish's Avatar
    Sounds great. Hard casting druid healer sounds interesting, might play that if they don't bend over to whiners. I'd love to see pretty much every instant damage/heal spell go.

    Whats with the adhd generation having problems if they have to sit 30-60 seconds without doing anything once in a while? I liked a lot fights like Firemaw or 4H in vanilla, where you had small pauses in the action. It gave you time to look around the art and see how the raid is moving and working like a clock work (though this just isn't as impressive with 25 mans), laugh at others in your class channel or just relax, take a sip of water and chat for a second before engaging again. And for officers it gave a good window to look how players are actually playing when not requested to fraps (especially healers whos true contribution can some times be very hard to determine without seeing what they do/did), instead of just parsing some addon data like a noob. But I guess the last part isn't that relevant anymore with these minuscule size raids.
  1. ZeroWashu's Avatar
    So glad to read they finally admit how bad early Cata healing was. It was guild breaking. The efficiency nerf was so bad that gaining a level was a negative!

    I would not mind seeing heal spells that heal X% of the player they are used on. Instead of healing a flat amount, or percentage of the healers health, just heal % of targets health and be done with it. That way you can have your "big" spell that does 25% of a players health, be they a tank or dps, have aoe's that do about 10 to 12 percent and so on. This would make tank damage so much more manageable.

    Damn Cata sucked, I watched two different great guilds implode. Most of our 5 man healers were the significant others who played, when they left they took two players, themselves and the SO. It gutted a great 25 man to where by the end of the first two months we barely fielded a 10 man. Tried merging with another guild only to be at max of 2 ten mans... and even that was a stretch. So its great to see they figured it out.
  1. Geish's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    T Except that ties into the Realm Firsts, sure it might have inspired some negative gameplay but over all it spurred rivalry and competition a.k.a. elements of community. So we have a return to the travesty that was Cata's first tier while trying to throw under the bus even more elements of community.
    Had you been around vanilla/tbc, you would know that achievement system itself actually hindered the community. Take the realm firsts for example, in vanilla/tbc instead of getting an notification you had to ask around, actually talk to some one. Which one do you think builds more feeling and knowledge about the community and might even make you new friends? Now multiply this with potentially hundreds of achievements that all take away little bit of that interaction between players and community and the end result is very detrimental for the community in the long run.
  1. Lycefli's Avatar
    Absorbs
    If everyone is constantly in a state of partially injured, don't absorbs inherently lose a lot of value?
    Yes. (Celestalon)
    Odd. I look at these abilities as "Damage delay's" during fights and at the start, damage preventing. Most of the time in mid-low damage situations with raid/party wide damage, an absorb will be followed by a HoT to bring the health pool back up. Perhaps they could incorporate a system where some absorbs have a chance to apply a HoT when they are applied? Absorbs should be "planned" in preparation of extreme damage incoming, but they're only single-target with CD and debuffs such as weakened soul...
  1. Siddown's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by cityguy193 View Post
    But you forgot about the healing part, where you have to play a healer in a pug in a harder dungeon, with now mana issues to worry about. If cata is any indication, it would be that healers would quit playing healers in mass, or the competent healers would just stop using random que again.
    Except the whole "mana issues" thing is just made up by angry posters. Read the update to the article, it specifically points out that healers going OOM was a problem in Cataclysm that they won't repeat.

    Let's face it, as much as everyone here begs for change, when it happens they hate it. That or it's just another thing to complain about, so in a way, they love it.
  1. mag07's Avatar
    Best news in nearly 4 years. Hopefuls they won't perform ostrich defense move under whining pressure of some players.
    Bring some skill back to the game, stop with the running like a headless chicken constantly.
    Cata healing was challanging but perfectly fine in guild groups when tank and dps did not act like twats trying to plow through everything at end of Wrath speed. Quit complaining, quit LFGing. Enjoy what really made mmorpgs successful - socializing with people around you, be it guildies or other friends.

    Hope Blizzard sticks to the concept.

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