Rob Pardo Leaving Blizzard Entertainment

Originally Posted by Protar

Well first of all there were just as many women in historic times as there were today and a good amount of women warriors. More than your high school history lessons would lead you to believe. And additionally a lot of women who made the most of their situation and gained power and influence in other ways.

WoW does need gay characters in my opinion. So yeah.

First: Of that You have no idea. Or have you made investigations of your own and saying that history teachers throughout the world are lying to people?


Second: Why?

Originally Posted by UniBlue

"the women are in charge, it can't be sexist!" - Just like saying "men in charge means it must be sexist" is a copout, right?

Well in a real scenario, having one gender in charge of a society is sexist. However there is nothing wrong with exploring that concept in a fictional scenario. However that does not mean that the females who are in charge are well written. Tyrande may supposedly be in charge of Nelf society, but she is nonetheless Malfurion's arm candy and Varian's lackey. It's basically an informed attribute.

Originally Posted by UniBlue

And generally speaking when addressing females in the video game community they are referred to as a minority. Do you dispute that? I don't see how real life has any relevance since your argument is that you were displeased with the female characters. I can make the same argument for my displeasure with some of the male ones but I still don't see how that translates to blizzard being sexist.

Of course real life has relevance, we're talking about whether real life minorities are being represented in video games. Now in terms of women's position of power in society they are a minority, but in terms of numbers they are the majority.

Originally Posted by Protar

snip

No offense but all I'm seeing from you is your own twisted view that every man is actively trying to put women down. Lots of opinions and still no solid arguments for blizzard in fact being sexist. Which I'm pretty sure they aren't.

Actually I think your entire point could be summed up with: Female character with bad writing = sexism / Male character with bad writing = bad writing.

Sorry but to me that makes absolutely no sense and I'm not going to waste my time arguing since its likely a lost cause already. Good day.

Protar I think its best you just shut the fuck up now. Clearly just a busy body who wants everything their own way. Heres an idea, go make your own game with gays, blacks, women and every other minority so you can join in and feel completely happy in a socially balanced world. Then, once you've got your perfect game up and running with every minority represented, I can come along and start QQing that theres not enough stereotypical, strong male characters in your game and that you're being discriminate against that group.

Seriously, do you even understand the word Minority? There will ALWAYS be a minority. That doesnt mean by default that theyre being discriminated against.

Fact is, you have to strike a balance. Which I think, judging by everyone response to your statements showing that the opposite is mostly true, and the fact Ive played WoW since beta (and about 500 other computer games in my life to compare to), Blizzard have done.

Well first of all there were just as many women in historic times as there were today and a good amount of women warriors. More than your high school history lessons would lead you to believe. And additionally a lot of women who made the most of their situation and gained power and influence in other ways. But that's kind of a moot point anyway as WoW is really based on every point of history at once a long with a lot that is just pure fantasy.

And for this, I can only say you're delusional. In fact, denying this says to me that you're happy to gloss over the truth which is in fact, more insulting to women than any misrepresentation claim! Women have been oppressed for centuries and still are in Muslim countries today. Yes there may have been the odd tale or myth of heroic women in history, mostly made up by men to keep women happy, but I wouldn't even go close to saying they've been fairly treated in history.

Please keep it civil.

Originally Posted by gratzner

First: Of that You have no idea. Or have you made investigations of your own and saying that history teachers throughout the world are lying to people?


Second: Why?

I think the real question is why not? Diversity is good, at the very least it provides a more interesting variety of characters rather than the same archetypes over and over. If you don't care about whether or not gay are included then that's fine. But if you don't care, why fight against them?

Anyway, history teachers throughout the world are excising parts of history. Not deliberately of course, they're simply following the national curriculum. But yes women had a far more prominent role in history and war then your history class would suggest. If you're not afraid of A Song of Ice and Fire spoilers, this piece goes into a few examples (skip past the "what happens" segment to the commentary): http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/06/a-r...-crows-part-18

Or if you don't want spoilers have a few names: Boudica, Queen Zenobia, The Night Witches, Ching Shih. If you don't fancy looking them up just know that they where warrior women who most people probably don't know exist.

Originally Posted by 3allz

Protar I think its best you just shut the fuck up now. Clearly just a busy body who wants everything their own way.

There's constructive criticism, and then there's you trying to silence opposing thoughts. Protar, who I don't agree 100% on everything with, has done nothing but be civil. So far, you're the one getting bent out of shape and telling people to be silent. It's not a good way to have a discussion.

I'd also like to point out that you can be friends with people, even if they have different viewpoints on things as seemingly trivial as representations of minorities in games. I really don't see why this is such a hot button for people to get seriously pissed and lathered at the mouth over.

Originally Posted by daem

Just out of curiosity...why does the want of more minorities piss you off so much?

I have no problem with them addressing Blizzard directly in a calm manner and expressing their wishes.
It's the rabble AFTER their proposals have been rejected that annoys me.

It's Blizzards world. They don't want homosexual relationships in it? DEAL WITH IT or move on.

Also I find the want to be included in EVERYTHING a bit childish. There are so many minorities out there that I easily lose count. What makes homosexual people so special that they think their sexual orientation of choice has to be featured in a game that has no "sexuality content" (Player RP doesn't count) in the first place?

I could understand if they would rage against a porn game excluding them. That would be a logical complaint.

28 pages isnt enough to show that on one hand, theres constructive critisim and on the other, theres just SJW who want their own way with everything?

Sorry but theres a point where a conversation can just go round and round because people will always find holes and things to pick at, which we're at now. So yeah, since no-one else will say it, shut the fuck up with your bullshit. Thanks

And yes, people try to hide behind their pseudo intellectual avatars when really, sometimes people are just wrong and need to be told.

Originally Posted by Granyala

What makes homosexual people so special that they think their sexual orientation of choice has to be featured in a game that has no "sexuality content" (Player RP doesn't count) in the first place?

I could understand if they would rage against a porn game excluding them. That would be a logical complaint.

It seems like homosexuality is only about one thing for you: graphic sex.

You do not even need to mention or explain anyone's sexuality. A wife mourning the loss of her husband in the game can just as well be a man doing the same thing.

Originally Posted by Otronn

It seems like homosexuality is only about one thing for you: graphic sex.

You do not even need to mention or explain anyone's sexuality. A wife mourning the loss of her husband in the game can just as well be a man doing the same thing.

Who cares. There's about 100 different things in WoW more deserving of attention than this bull shit.

Originally Posted by 3allz

28 pages isnt enough to show that on one hand, theres constructive critisim and on the other, theres just SJW who want their own way with everything?

Sorry but theres a point where a conversation can just go round and round because people will always find holes and things to pick at, which we're at now. So yeah, since no-one else will say it, shut the fuck up with your bullshit. Thanks

And yes, people try to hide behind their pseudo intellectual avatars when really, sometimes people are just wrong and need to be told.

I can see I'm not at all getting through to you, your brain has just exploded in rage for whatever reason. They're your reasons, so I won't pretend to understand.

bring back the vanilla ppl and make this game great again instead of easy as shit and kiddyfied

Originally Posted by Protar

WoW does need gay characters in my opinion. So yeah.

I agree with the sentiment but do you really think that a community that thinks spamming anal this, anal that is amusing would be able to deal with a gay character in a sensible and mature manner?

Originally Posted by Otronn

It seems like homosexuality is only about one thing for you: graphic sex.

You do not even need to mention or explain anyone's sexuality. A wife mourning the loss of her husband in the game can just as well be a man doing the same thing.

Doesn't change the fact that sexuality still is utterly irrelevant in a game like WoW. And if they do implement it the way you want, they risk
a) overzealous gays of accusing them to bring in a token NPC instead of a prominently featured main character
b) conservative media shaming (OMG there is gays in a game for 12 year oldz!1)
c) conservative parents denying their children to pleasure to play because they don't approve of homosexuality.

All possible downsides with 0 upsides.
A.K.A.: Not worth the hassle.

Originally Posted by Pann

I agree with the sentiment but do you really think that a community that thinks spamming anal this, anal that is amusing would be able to deal with a gay character in a sensible and mature manner?

Do you think Blizzard would be?
Or would they implement a stereotypical caricature of a homosexual, thus insulting them further?

Originally Posted by Pann

I agree with the sentiment but do you really think that a community that thinks spamming anal this, anal that is amusing would be able to deal with a gay character in a sensible and mature manner?

It's all about creating an environment in which people are able to deal with stuff in a sensible, mature manner. If you gradually introduce gay characters via minor quest characters it's not long before it's normalised and people can treat it reasonably.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Granyala

Doesn't change the fact that sexuality still is utterly irrelevant in a game like WoW. And if they do implement it the way you want, they risk
a) overzealous gays of accusing them to bring in a token NPC instead of a prominently featured main character
b) conservative media shaming (OMG there is gays in a game for 12 year oldz!1)
c) conservative parents denying their children to pleasure to play because they don't approve of homosexuality.

All possible downsides with 0 upsides.
A.K.A.: Not worth the hassle.

Sexuality does exist in WoW though. That's simply a fact. There's actually a huge upside to Blizzard that would come from including well written female and LGBT characters - namely it would get them a lot of good PR. A couple of conservatives would complain but that would be more than outweighed imo by the positive press.

Originally Posted by Protar

It's all about creating an environment in which people are able to deal with stuff in a sensible, mature manner. If you gradually introduce gay characters via minor quest characters it's not long before it's normalised and people can treat it reasonably.

This would assume that the community as a whole is capable of dealing with such matters in a sensible, mature manner and I think that no matter how hard you try there are going to be certain aspects of the WOW population that will treat any gay character as source of ridicule. There is also the issue that Granyala mentioned that Blizzard are probably not capable of producing a gay character that is not walking cliché.

This thread is about someone leaving Blizzard not about minorities being misrepresented. Why is everyone SO off topic.

Originally Posted by Protar

I think the real question is why not? Diversity is good, at the very least it provides a more interesting variety of characters rather than the same archetypes over and over. If you don't care about whether or not gay are included then that's fine. But if you don't care, why fight against them?

Anyway, history teachers throughout the world are excising parts of history. Not deliberately of course, they're simply following the national curriculum. But yes women had a far more prominent role in history and war then your history class would suggest.

Boudica, Queen Zenobia, The Night Witches, Ching Shih. If you don't fancy looking them up just know that they where warrior women who most people probably don't know exist.

No the real question is why, hence the question. Why? You believe that WoW needs gay characters... why?

So.. history teachers are excising parts of history? In what way? But just for kicks i'll bite, history teachers... all over the world are excising history, but these so called.. warrior women.. are spot on the truth and these stories tells us exactly what happened?

Originally Posted by Pann

This would assume that the community as a whole is capable of dealing with such matters in a sensible, mature manner and I think that no matter how hard you try there are going to be certain aspects of the WOW population that will treat any gay character as source of ridicule. There is also the issue that Granyala mentioned that Blizzard are probably not capable of producing a gay character that is not walking cliché.

Well I'm sure some people would be inappropriate. But they already are so it wouldn't really make much difference. The sensible people would remain sensible, the immature people would remain immature.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by gratzner

No the real question is why, hence the question. Why? You believe that WoW needs gay characters... why?

So.. history teachers are excising parts of history? In what way? But just for kicks i'll bite, history teachers... all over the world are excising history, but these so called.. warrior women.. are spot on the truth and these stories tells us exactly what happened?

Well I answered your question anyway. Diversity and representation are good things. That's why I feel WoW needs LGBT characters.

And likewise I just said how the national curriculums are excising parts of history: By making history out to be more male centric than it actually was. And yes, all of those things are true, easily verified by a quick google. The Night Witches played a role in WW2, some where still alive until a few years ago.

Originally Posted by Protar

There's actually a huge upside to Blizzard that would come from including well written female and LGBT characters - namely it would get them a lot of good PR. A couple of conservatives would complain but that would be more than outweighed imo by the positive press.

To be perfectly honest: I believe there are far more conservatives that would bash than progressives that would hype.
Bad PR would outweigh the good PR.

That only concerns LGBT though.
I doubt there would be negative PR because of a well written female character.

This thread is about someone leaving Blizzard not about minorities being misrepresented. Why is everyone SO off topic.

I think it started with someone interpreting a remark of the person that left as sexist.
Not sure though.

As far as the topic goes: Who gives a damn. None of us has any facts on the matter, as such, constructive discussion is impossible anyway.
We can only guess as to why Rob has left.