Legion - Max Camera Distance Reduction

Originally Posted by 4dahorde

The things you people find to complain about. Someone on the forums actually said they were "physically unable to play the game now." Really? Physically unable? Even if you try to use Epilepsy as an excuse, only something like 3-4% of elpileptic people have photsensitivity. Sure it was nice in some areas to zoom way out, I did occasionally, but this is in no way game breaking. The screenshots I have seen are really not that bad. People HATE change and when it comes to Blizzard changing something, people lose their minds. You will get used to it. Why can people not just play a freaking game because it is fun, why does it have to be made and playable EXACTLY like YOU want it to be. People already saying they won't play the game if they can't zoom the camera out...wow, everything there is to do in the game and people threaten to stop playing because of camera distance. Some of you people are unbeliveable.

"I don't play this way so no one else should either!"

You're a walking breathing stereotype.

Totally fine with it honestly, as the reasoning behind it was to reduce the advantage players have by having a really zoomed out camera. Blizzard has been doing this forever now in their games so I'm surprised WoW took forever to inhabit this forced restriction. I mean, this is the same company who thought about having Overwatch locked at 70 FoV was a good idea.

But you still get an advantage (IIRC) by having a multi-monitor setup, nullifying this reduction if you have that anyways.

This honestly doesn't bother me much. Playing way zoomed out felt strange and disconnected, but it felt required for maximum raid awareness. I get that the loss of something that made the game easier to play feels bad, but I think that once we get used to it, it will feel better. Now they can design UI and encounters with a more reasonable camera distance in mind.

And don't act like there aren't tools for seeing what's going on in the raid. You can still pan the camera over to check on ranged. You can still see what's going on from 40y no problem. I've done plenty raids with normal camera distance and never had any issues doing what I needed to do.

The only thing that I think they could do to throw people a bone is to increase the max just a bit. No where near where the edited max was before, but maybe a bit more than we have now.

People hate change, but honestly one expansion from now everyone will be used to it and we won't hear of it again.

Originally Posted by Blown03SVT

I used to toy with the hidden max camera distance command but found that when you start zoomed all the way out and then suddenly get caught in a forced close camera position(in a small room or something), it forces the camera to go first-person or nearly first-person for a few moments and then it zooms all the way out again. It made tracking my character in the environment with bad stuff on the ground kind of hard/disorienting. The camera distance in the screenshot looks perfectly fine to me. Maybe you all who use it just need to learn to be aware of your environment without being able to see it.

What about in a situation where you're trying to tank a large boss/bosses and then have to try and pick up adds? It's not like that hasn't happened before. It's not like that won't happen again. Going to be sort of hard to do when you see two bosses the size of your screen (their feet and knees, anyhow) blocking everything.

Originally Posted by 4dahorde

The things you people find to complain about. Someone on the forums actually said they were "physically unable to play the game now." Really? Physically unable? Even if you try to use Epilepsy as an excuse, only something like 3-4% of elpileptic people have photsensitivity. Sure it was nice in some areas to zoom way out, I did occasionally, but this is in no way game breaking. The screenshots I have seen are really not that bad. People HATE change and when it comes to Blizzard changing something, people lose their minds. You will get used to it. Why can people not just play a freaking game because it is fun, why does it have to be made and playable EXACTLY like YOU want it to be. People already saying they won't play the game if they can't zoom the camera out...wow, everything there is to do in the game and people threaten to stop playing because of camera distance. Some of you people are unbeliveable.

It has nothing to do with Epilepsy nor its that extreme, but it can be bad. Its called "Simulation Sickness" and its base is in various visual health issues, its a form of Motion Sickness related to gaming and it kicks in with reduced Field of Vision (FoV). Its easily noticeable in FPS games where you have most reduced FoV and people get the feel of tunnel vision.
It's caused in video gaming by a disconnect between your eyes and your inner ear, eyes are detecting motion on the screen while your inner ear has no such luck (because, you know, you're not actually moving).
It starts with easy nausea, quickly following by strong headache and eyes pain, nausea reflex gets bad fast, this tricks your body into thinking it's being poisoned and results in loss of balance, and sometimes ending up with vomiting. If that happens its a big tow on human body and person need to rest till effects wear off.
OFC, these effects are most common ones, but effects on body vary frequently from what visual stimulant is actually the cause, those are mine IF i dont take the break when my body starts to react.
Now, you might think "WoW hes dying lol" and that im blowing it out of proportion, it sounds bad "on paper" but its not like were dying in RL, were just get extremely uneasy when our field of vision is reduced. Im getting Motion Sickness even by watching passively how my kid brother plays FPS or games like LoL, Diablo3, HoTS, dark souls..

Now.. the issue is that with CVar settings i was able to bypass my limitation and play WoW as you can play it, without much strain on my body. I havent played at max Camera Distance, but i was playing with with increased than normal for sure.
Once the new settings are in im unable to set the camera as i used to and im getting Simulation Sickness due to reduced Field of Vision. PPL here argue that the FoV isnt changed, but just zoom is locked to normal settings and therefor you see less of the terrain. IF the camera is less zoomed out and you see less your FoV, by default is reduced too.
As someone in Alpha/Beta, im currently unable to play the game longer than hour, hour and a half without the need to take a break or ill get physically ill due to my motion sickness.
Im sure that raid group, guild or pug, will understand me when i say them "Ok guys, i need to lie down a little or my motion sickness will kick in, lets make a 15min break. Tyty, cy in 15"
So, in a way this change makes me unable to physically play the game as i used to due to my illness.
As its a paid to play product on a monthly base im triggered since its affecting my performance in a bad way simply because they decided to take out of the game option thats in since its initial release, over a decade ago.
Im additionally triggered as this change came so sudden so late in development cycle with more than stupid Watchers explanation, extremely childhood excuses with poor lie to try to cover up actual impact on gameplay providing bad screenshot examples.

TL; DR: No, its not as extreme as Epilepsy, but its a Motion Sickness related to reduced FoV in games. Its called Simulation Sickness and it makes you physically Ill so it makes you unable to physically play WoW normally as it limits your game time.

Originally Posted by Zublits

This honestly doesn't bother me much. Playing way zoomed out felt strange and disconnected, but it felt required for maximum raid awareness. I get that the loss of something that made the game easier to play feels bad, but I think that once we get used to it, it will feel better. Now they can design UI and encounters with a more reasonable camera distance in mind.

And don't act like there aren't tools for seeing what's going on in the raid. You can still pan the camera over to check on ranged. You can still see what's going on from 40y no problem. I've done plenty raids with normal camera distance and never had any issues doing what I needed to do.

The only thing that I think they could do to throw people a bone is to increase the max just a bit. No where near where the edited max was before, but maybe a bit more than we have now.

People hate change, but honestly one expansion from now everyone will be used to it and we won't hear of it again.

Current MCD is around 42.something yards behind your character, new changes it to 28.5y, so the change is 14y which is 1/3 of the original settings cut off.
I took examples with old and new MCD with UI on so you can see the change better:

Old MCD:
http://i.imgur.com/GDXi7cZ.jpg

New MCD:
http://i.imgur.com/Z264btR.jpg


Im not sure what role did you played in those raids as you havent said. Ranged DPS is not so much affected with this change, healers, melee and tanks are quite much. With current napkin math that i stumbled on official forums its a 13-15% performance drop to affected roles as their field of vision is lowered, thus they have less sight, awareness and they need to pan camera and react, thus they factored this as performance drop.

And i dont even care about performance drops, how does it affects gameplay or is it just decision or not, im not asking for old MCD settings, im just asking for "middle ground" settings as these are far to close because im getting Motion Sickness with new reduced settings.
Im not sure have they even tested this change and how it affects people with various visual Motion Sickness issues before they implemented it or they just went with it. By the looks of it they simply made the change so late and said "its done, live it it. or dont."

Originally Posted by Zublits

This honestly doesn't bother me much. Playing way zoomed out felt strange and disconnected, but it felt required for maximum raid awareness. I get that the loss of something that made the game easier to play feels bad, but I think that once we get used to it, it will feel better. Now they can design UI and encounters with a more reasonable camera distance in mind.

And don't act like there aren't tools for seeing what's going on in the raid. You can still pan the camera over to check on ranged. You can still see what's going on from 40y no problem. I've done plenty raids with normal camera distance and never had any issues doing what I needed to do.

The only thing that I think they could do to throw people a bone is to increase the max just a bit. No where near where the edited max was before, but maybe a bit more than we have now.

People hate change, but honestly one expansion from now everyone will be used to it and we won't hear of it again.

Except that the UI and encounters are already designed for Legion, because the developers thought that the MaxCameraDistance change was active. Implementing the change this late in Beta is a shockingly player-unfriendly decision, and it's odd to me that 2 months before launch is the time when Blizzard decides to anger a ton of players who are in Beta.

Originally Posted by Zublits

I get that the loss of something that made the game easier to play feels bad, but I think that once we get used to it, it will feel better.

It's not that it made the game easier as much as it allowed you to have awareness of what's going on around you. Something fairly crucial to melee and tanks not to mention the raid leader. Just because you can zoom out and see more of what's going on around you doesn't mean you automatically dodge mechanics.

Originally Posted by Zublits

Now they can design UI and encounters with a more reasonable camera distance in mind.

Blizzard designing the UI...that's funny.

And encounter design has never taken camera distance in to account, if it had this would have been an issue long before now. Remember it's been around for more than 10 years.

Originally Posted by Zublits

And don't act like there aren't tools for seeing what's going on in the raid. You can still pan the camera over to check on ranged. You can still see what's going on from 40y no problem. I've done plenty raids with normal camera distance and never had any issues doing what I needed to do.

I call BS, with some of the boss models it's virtually impossible as melee to get a clear view of what's going on without zooming out max.

Originally Posted by Zublits

People hate change, but honestly one expansion from now everyone will be used to it and we won't hear of it again.

I'm sure you're right, sub numbers will probably be down by another few percent though. It's a pointless change justified by bullshit reasons that will cost subscriptions, why on earth some people are so adamant in their defense of it is beyond me as in the end it hurts them.

So both my mother and my son are saying the same thing knowing how sick I get, ask for a refund on Legion since it is their choice after so many have pre-ordered to change this and due to a medical reason I can't play. All those that get simulation sickness (motion sickness) need to just start asking for their money back. We were unaware at the time of purchase that they were making this change. My mother also pointed out that there are so many that play someone here has to be a lawyer. So if they will not give the money back to those who can't play, sorry those that just don't like it mostly likely will not have a legal right, can go after them. I have NEVER gone after anyone is this manor before but I have sunk a ton of money into this game over the years and so far the only one I can really play, and being told they really don't care is insulting. After seeing that there are more than one thread on the beta forums and then sites like this with post after post with people saying this is one of their worst decisions ever and so many that have reported getting sick with not a single response from a blue about it, they just don't care how many people they loose. Was pretty sure Activison was trying to kill WoW and this just seems like another ploy to do so. After all they were quoted as saying the only money is in first person shooters and MMO's are no longer popular.

Eh, feels unnecessary but from a design PoV it's not really surprising they'd eventually do something about the "custom" max camera settings making people turn their characters into 10 pixels, and able to have an overview over the whole boss area.

Just looking at Action Cam videos it's so blatantly obvious how important the camera and visual sense of scale is.

Originally Posted by Medbh

...I have sunk a ton of money into this game over the years and so far the only one I can really play, and being told they really don't care is insulting..

Pretty much this.

This has been posted 10pages back, i highly recommend to anyone who says that this change is fine to look at this video:

Courtasy of Lorentz a video of what LFR Mannoroth looks like using the new Legion camera distance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-5CzOtXC_Q

Now, you can say that everything is fine, but everything goes to hell when Manno second phase starts and he puts some meat on dem bones:

5:44--Manno enters second phase and covers up most of the screen till the end of the encounter:
https://youtu.be/j-5CzOtXC_Q?t=345

A couple times that show the problems with the new tighter camera.
6:20--Shadowforce blinds the player:
https://youtu.be/j-5CzOtXC_Q?t=377

7:42--Big green explosion blinds the player
https://youtu.be/j-5CzOtXC_Q?t=462

8:18--Wings cover up most of the screen
https://youtu.be/j-5CzOtXC_Q?t=498

Someone must have been having too much fun with it we all know how blizzard is with FUN

Idiotic change. Things very far away pose little to no danger to a character as it is. If they're worried about field of vision in a raid environment, simply cap the camera distance on a per fight basis with geometry Once again, we change the entire game because raiders.

I read the first 2 pages of this article, I am not going to read the whole 12+ pages of comments but here is how I see it. First it doesn't make the game easier or harder it will only make things more frustrating and complicated. We are going to have NUMEROUS people dying over shit simply because they can't see it because you cant zoom out enough to SEE whats going on in the room.(I am mostly referring to dungeons and raids here) Second of all they knew it was a bad decision they knew it would piss people off his post pretty much said we know you wont like it but we are gonna do it anyway so suck it up. Good Job activision no I will not blame blizz. I blame activision, another move to piss people off and kill the game.

"Sorry, but you didn't win this time". WHEN will I ever win a Key? You had 750 Beta keys this time. Do you even watch for those who already won? Pretty sure of them got their 2nd Beta Key.

"This is one of this changes that we realize will be intensely unpopular with the group of players"

Yet you still go forward with it? Even though there was no problem in the first place. Even though there is addons like weakauras roaming the raids... Either the wow developers doesnt play world of warcraft or there is a serious lack of common sense.

Originally Posted by Novellen

Could someone explain to me WTF is going on?

I said so many times... This company are not able to learn. And they are ignoring their customers.
This expansion will be a bigger fail than WoD was. Too much RNG is able to destroy everything in an MMO.
How many things were removed from the game? Someone should make a list about that.

LOL people like you talking shit without even know what you are talking about

Originally Posted by daspels

"This is one of this changes that we realize will be intensely unpopular with the group of players"

Yet you still go forward with it? Even though there was no problem in the first place. Even though there is addons like weakauras roaming the raids... Either the wow developers doesnt play world of warcraft or there is a serious lack of common sense.

Probably both.
I mean, we can accept unpopular changes that have solid reasons backing them. But this is not by any means the case. Their arguments are weak, when not pure fallacies.

Just to remind: in the past years every time blizzard went against the payerbase, they were wrong.

Originally Posted by daspels

"This is one of this changes that we realize will be intensely unpopular with the group of players"

Yet you still go forward with it? Even though there was no problem in the first place. Even though there is addons like weakauras roaming the raids... Either the wow developers doesnt play world of warcraft or there is a serious lack of common sense.

Wait did you just put WoW devs and common sense in the same sentence? *falls over laughing and has an accident* Sorry yes at this point I have just become cynical. The lack of caring about their player base is overwhelming. That they choose to ignore even those with a medical issue that is backed up by the US Army...yes there is a report that I can't link and hope someone else did, is just beyond me. From what I have read from others that get sick there is no other game out there we can go to. So I implore any game devs out there, MAKE US A NEW GAME to replace WoW. It can be a clone I don't care! I just want to play and not be sick.

Played since 2008.
This is one of few games I can play without getting headaches and sore eyes because of the movement.
They lost me for a year, with their no flying. The change they made 'do all the content you want flying for and then you'll unlock flying', made me stay away for almost a year.
Came back for a bit. Read that Legion is the same, do stuff for flying and they'll unlock it 'in a later patch'.
And now they remove max camera distance.
Well it was allready highly unlikely that I would have purchased Legion because of the above mentioned.
But with the max camera distance change they won't be seeing me again.
It's a damn shame, had a very good time the last years in wow.

What I find funny in all this, except those that do suffer from motion sickness and what not which is the only true and valid reason. Is the amount of rage going on about this I have not seen so much rage since the SELFIE Cam incident, the Real ID debacle or the no flying ever again furor or what ever else takes peoples fancy..

After seeing this happen I went into beta to see what all the hubbub is about and well from what I saw to me at least it is a non issue.. It makes you look around your environment and to see what danger is lurking around the corner even though you can still see quite a bit when zoomed out..

I mean when we are out in the real world and we want to cross a road we do not tunnel vision to the other side of the road we have to look both ways before crossing.. Or when you go down a street or alley at night you usually look around to make sure you are not about to get attacked.. In an ideal world we would either have a camera mounted on a drone to give us a better field of view, or even better just stay at home and grow fat while we have robots do everything for us..

But well if people are going to rage on something as minor as this well that is their problem, I have seen the change and as before I have no issue with it..