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  1. #1

    LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Edit: read the topic as "Undergeared clears ToC, ICC to follow". I can't believe how many people don't read past the topic.

    We need all that, right?

    Wrong!

    ToC has now (last Saturday, at least) been cleared by a raid in full blue gear. This is part of a project (check my sig for further details) to clear WOTLK content in blue gear. And we're actually doing it. Many people thought that ToC would be a hard hurdle to get by (even me, actually), but in fact it was easy as pie.

    The only boss that wasn't one-shotted was the champions. The first attempt at the Twins only failed due to the paladin tank forgetting to turn RF on.

    Next step: ICC 10. I'm fairly confident we can kill (at least) 4/12 next week, which is where most raids tend to end. Wouldn't that be embarrassing for the people requiring 5.6k GS and 11/12 achievement end up killing only up to Saurfang?



    "Cool Story, Bro" time:

    I've had three different ToC experiences this week:

    First I joined a raid being led by a guy who's a recurring joke on my server. I wanted to see first hand how badly his group would fail, so I joined him in ToC 10 normal. Was funny: I was the only dps attacking the Snobolds, healers were standing near Snobolds, people were standing on top of fire for extended periods of time, tanks were getting to 6+ stacks of impale. End result: never got to see Icehowl. On the three wipes we had, the worms appeared twice, none of the times more than one tank alive, so only one could be picked up. I tried to remedy the situation by range tanking the stationary worm, but to no avail. Again, people were taking too much unnecessary damage and healers couldn't keep up.

    Second experience was the blue geared raid. Went there on my shaman for his first raid, with whom I usually heal, as elemental. Sure enough I made some mistakes (ahem, pulled aggro on the first Mistress and next thing I heard was *splash*), but the group pulled through. We didn't set any records for speed kills, Jaraxxus lasted so long our healers were OOM for the last 10% (effectively letting a couple of Incinerate flesh go off), but people weren't dying from stupid stuff, so all the bosses went down. (Gormok was killed last week, which I didn't attend, so the kill isn't on my character sheet) After Anub was down, we proceeded to one-shoot Onyxia, which I have also had some horrible experiences with much better geared groups.

    Yesterday I was minding my own business when I see a familiar name asking for more people to TOGC10. He's a shaman from the most progressed strict 10 man guild in the world. I ask him if I can join and since some of them knew me and took my druid last week, I get a spot. This was an alt run to gear up some of their alts, but it sure went well. These people don't stand in fire, apply dps to the relevant targets, and can dish out the numbers to overcome the hard parts with so much ease it almost felt like we were running ToC 10 normal. I sure got my Tribute to Insanity on yet another alt (still not on my main!), and am happy this time I didn't feel so carried like when they took my druid.
    Ardoric Sollis Ardodeath. Proud pet collector

    Ardoric <Undergeared> Raiding in blues 'cause gear is overrated (8/12 ICC 10 | 3/4 RS 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by ardoRic
    You argue that you need gear to compensate stupidity, I argue that you shouldn't take stupid to your raids.

  2. #2
    Deleted

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Invite, Demo warlock.

    Oh, and lets get ontopic; We all know about Achievements/GS stuff. I'm sorry to say but its getting old now. :\
    Anyway.. Gratz i'd suppose, its ofcourse not something done every day.

    Oh, and EDIT. Go 25man Festergut/Queen/PP in full Blue. Lets see then hmm. Without the buff ofcourse, WOTLK is hard as your SIG states.

  3. #3

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    good job, raids on my server still fail on worms with 5.5k gs peoples... ive seen better full clear barely any wipes with 4.8kgs /facepalm

  4. #4

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Anyone knows that gear is not the most important thing to kill bosses. If you get a raid with good synergy + 10/25 players that can get 90-100% out of their class and know how to play, you can kill bosses with a lot less gear then the average pug needs.

    However getting 10/25 players that can perform at 90-100% of the potential of their class and know how to play is hard to get. That's why pug's have gear requirements, so that those players that can get maybe 50% out of their class still reach the minimum requirement and the ones that do better can recover the dps loss from those heroes that seem to have a desire to stand in fires.

  5. #5

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    hehe ye atleast on my server they want about 4,5-4,8 for toc 10 norm

    props for clearing in blues if true i guesss

    and 1 thing me and a friend was talking about regarding togc 10 and toc 25 pugs is that so many ppl seems to think that it should be so easy because its old instance but they are so wrong ^^

    damn they hit harder then some bosses in icc




  6. #6

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Hope we can end GS shit right now.

  7. #7

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Quote Originally Posted by Sageless
    Anyone knows that gear is not the most important thing to kill bosses. If you get a raid with good synergy + 10/25 players that can get 90-100% out of their class and know how to play, you can kill bosses with a lot less gear then the average pug needs.

    However getting 10/25 players that can perform at 90-100% of the potential of their class and know how to play is hard to get. That's why pug's have gear requirements, so that those players that can get maybe 50% out of their class still reach the minimum requirement and the ones that do better can recover the dps loss from those heroes that seem to have a desire to stand in fires.
    One of the conditions for the Undergeared raid is exactly the opposite: that people roll a class that they have no previous experience with. I myself am playing a shaman with resto/elemental spec. While I do have some experience healing with my druid, the caster dps role is completely new to me, and aside from leveling as elemental, I had practically no experience at the role before this raid. We don't even need people to be performing 90-100% out of their class. I surely wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by warrtankd
    props for clearing in blues if true i guesss
    It most definitely is.
    Ardoric Sollis Ardodeath. Proud pet collector

    Ardoric <Undergeared> Raiding in blues 'cause gear is overrated (8/12 ICC 10 | 3/4 RS 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by ardoRic
    You argue that you need gear to compensate stupidity, I argue that you shouldn't take stupid to your raids.

  8. #8

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Pug your other 9 members in blues, then we'll talk about skill.

  9. #9

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    I have to say GJ realy but concerning wotlk content.. I am more of a pvper then a pveer so i find it nice that 25 mans ain't hard. I spend a lot less /facepalms on people then i othervise would
    When god closed the doors to paradise, music luckly sliped out.

  10. #10

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Quote Originally Posted by Secksee Phocks
    Yes, because a pre-planned team of people with experience in the instance has the same success chances as a random you make from trade chat.

    This proves nothing, kindly fuck off.
    No thread is complete without the retard dickhead chiming in.

  11. #11

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Quote Originally Posted by Prozac
    Oh, and EDIT. Go 25man Festergut/Queen/PP in full Blue. Lets see then hmm. Without the buff ofcourse, WOTLK is hard as your SIG states.
    We would, If we had the people. Care to join our ranks? We are indeed in need of a warlock.

    Of course we wouldn't go without a buff, that's just stupid. People in ilvl 264 don't go without buff, why would we? The buff is there, it's meant to be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secksee Phocks
    Yes, because a pre-planned team of people with experience in the instance has the same success chances as a random you make from trade chat.

    This proves nothing, kindly fuck off.
    Oh yes. Pre-planned. Here's our pre-planning: At the time of the raid (we raid 4 hours, once a week) there were 12 people online, 4 of them being tanks. We took everybody except 2 of the tanks. That's how thought out our group synergy was.

    We raid with what we got, not with carefully planned groups. Edit: if we had the people to try and go for better synergy, we of course would. But that's just common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoomj
    Pug your other 9 members in blues, then we'll talk about skill.
    It doesn't matter what gear the drooling retard has, if he is a drooling retard.
    Ardoric Sollis Ardodeath. Proud pet collector

    Ardoric <Undergeared> Raiding in blues 'cause gear is overrated (8/12 ICC 10 | 3/4 RS 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by ardoRic
    You argue that you need gear to compensate stupidity, I argue that you shouldn't take stupid to your raids.

  12. #12

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Congrats with the kills! I think everyone know that the content aint hard. People want the GS to be high for faster and smoother runs.. They hope GS = not only gear but also the person know what they are doing.. Which is far from the truth

  13. #13

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Quote Originally Posted by Secksee Phocks
    Any guild that isn't full of scrubs should be able to do this, but in guild runs you don't demand gearscores and achievements so your entire point about those two being irrelevant is completely void because those apply to pugs and you did not pug it. Should I start taking any random 25 people to progress on LK hard just because I wouldn't ask my guild for proof that they were competent?
    The people don't even have to be in the same guild. Any group who isn't full of scrubs should be able to do this.

    I didn't make a point about gearscores and achievements being irrelevant (don't make assumptions because of the title of the thread, I just used the same title as Gevlon used on his post) . I'm just reporting that the blue geared raid cleared ToC, against all judgement.
    Ardoric Sollis Ardodeath. Proud pet collector

    Ardoric <Undergeared> Raiding in blues 'cause gear is overrated (8/12 ICC 10 | 3/4 RS 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by ardoRic
    You argue that you need gear to compensate stupidity, I argue that you shouldn't take stupid to your raids.

  14. #14

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Quote Originally Posted by det
    Yes, congratz on your achievement and your project...but it is somewhat among the lines "Vanilla wasn't hard, I can solo it now on my protadin"
    How is raiding level 80 content at level 80 with gear below the intended gear any comparable to raiding level 60 content at level 80? The point is exactly the opposite: you can complete instances without vastly overgearing it, and we do it by grossly undergearing them.

    PS - and the project is not mine. I'm just a grunt. This is Gevlon's project.
    Ardoric Sollis Ardodeath. Proud pet collector

    Ardoric <Undergeared> Raiding in blues 'cause gear is overrated (8/12 ICC 10 | 3/4 RS 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by ardoRic
    You argue that you need gear to compensate stupidity, I argue that you shouldn't take stupid to your raids.

  15. #15

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    To be honest when it comes to GS and achievement, I personally ask for them because
    1. I want to make sure people know tactics
    2. Faster run

    other than that, I think GS SUCK DONKEY BALLS!

  16. #16

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    This thread says to me not that WOTLK is easy mode, but that people are idiots.

    If people in blues can clear TOC but people in 5k GS can fail at TOC, then I would argue that WOTLK is set at the mid point, as in with skill you can go a long way, with gear you can still fail, so with a good amount both you can do well. If you needed high gear and high skill, 1 much less people would be playing the game, and 2 of the people who would play the game even fewer would ever see raids past the 1st tier of each xpac.

  17. #17
    Deleted

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of GS, but I understand it.

    5K is easy to get to from heroics and crafted.

    So if someone were to ask for 5.5K that person would more than likely have some TOC experience maybe some ICC 10 / 25

    You have instantly filtered out a world of mewing cabbages.

    Sure you might not "need" that level of gear to do whatever, someone in blues (if they're decent, as you've proved) can do just as well.....but would I personally take the risk?

    Talk to anyone and they'll claim they know what they're doing, most of them won't or will be making silly mistakes because they always have done.

    With this run I would imagine that you knew everyone, knew they could play to the best of their gear level and wouldn't stand in red shit, you're weren't taking a chance on the first person to reply to a LFM in the trade channel.

    So while I think what you've done is very impressive it's not going to encourage me to look anymore favourably on lower geared people given the high level of dumb and dumber players out there.

    Case and point (cool story bro)

    Random daily starts, everyone says 'Hi' or 'Hiya', except the just over 5k GS hunter....he says 'I'm a melee hunter' and sadly looking at all his gear, gems and enchants, he was.

  18. #18

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    To be honest this project of our Greedy Goblin is a total waste of time, why do I think like this:

    - Take HP of boss, consider damage done by each one of your dpsers (get your favourite spread sheet), check enrage timer.

    - Now look at HP of your tanks, consider max boss damage

    - It is trickier with healers, but again, can get for each class a good estimate for HPS, look at potential raid dmg, divide by total dmg (could add a max of 10% extra dmg, due to random factors.

    Put all these into Excel and voila, I do not have to waste my time in running a encounter handicapping myself. We all know that skill >> gear, why try to demonstrate the obvious?

    What next, try to win BGs using only lvl70 gear against lvl80 characters?

  19. #19

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Quote Originally Posted by raffie
    To be honest when it comes to GS and achievement, I personally ask for them because
    1. I want to make sure people know tactics
    2. Faster run

    other than that, I think GS SUCK DONKEY BALLS!
    Gear is no indication that people can play their class well. I've seen quest greens/blues 80s out-DPS people with current badge gear. In the same way achievements don't mean someone really knows the fight. There are plenty of people who are carried and are blissfully ignorant of mechanics. To this day I still hear people explain hateful strikes incorrectly.

    Of course both do reduce the chances you'll get a moron, but not by a huge margin.

    Edit: In fact I've seen 70s in quest gear with no heirlooms out DPS some 80s in ilvl230+ gear, which is just depressing.
    I'm in the "I don't have an obnoxiously large signature" club.

  20. #20

    Re: LFM ToC10 5.5K GS, achie or no inv

    Quote Originally Posted by dotSeed
    Gear is no indication that people can play their class well. I've seen quest greens/blues 80s out-DPS people with current badge gear. In the same way achievements don't mean someone really knows the fight. There are plenty of people who are carried and are blissfully ignorant of mechanics. To this day I still hear people explain hateful strikes incorrectly.

    Of course both do reduce the chances you'll get a moron, but not by a huge margin.
    sigh i dont see a real argument there srry...

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