[Ret] Trinket ratings estimation [4.0.6]

[Kisko]

Like many others I was wondering which trinkets are now BiS and made this estimation.

Weights are latest for 4.1 from Redcape.
Cooldown coefficients and general logic from Chippydip.
Other bits here and there from EJ thread.

Heart of Rage (heroic) -------- 1517 dps = 363*1.085*1.075 + 2178*0.18*2.33*1.1975
Heart of Rage ----------------- 1342 dps = 321*1.085*1.075 + 1926*0.18*2.33*1.1975
License to Slay ---------------- 1304 dps = 321*1.085*1.075 + 371*2.33*1.075
Crushing Weight (heroic) ----- 1280 dps = 363*2.33*1.075 + 2178*0.18*0.79*1.1975
Impatience of Youth ---------- 1259 dps = 321*1.13*1.075 + 1605/6*2.33*1.395
Fury of Angerforge ------------ 1232 dps = 321*1.04*1.075 + 1926*(20+20+20*0.75)/360*2.33*1.395 - 23000*(0.26/6-0.26*55/360)
Darkmoon Card: Hurricane ---- 1174 dps = 321*2.33*1.075 + 370
Heart of Solace (heroic) ------- 1143 dps = 285*0.926*1.075 + 1710*0.18*2.33*1.1975
Crushing Weight -------------- 1132 dps = 321*2.33*1.075 + 1926*0.18*0.79*1.1975
Figurine - King of Boars ------- 1118 dps = 285*1.13*1.075 + 1425/6*2.33*1.395
Volatile Alchemist Stone ------ 1115 dps = 351*2.33*1.075 + 194*1.13*1.075
Mark of Khardros (heroic) ----- 1035 dps = 285*2.33*1.075 + 1425/6*1.13*1.1975
Right Eye of Rajh (heroic) ----- 1000 dps = 285*1.085*1.075 + 1710*0.14*2.33*1.1975
Might of the Ocean (heroic) --- 995 dps = 285*1.085*1.075 + 1425/6*2.33*1.1975

Sinestra (AoE fight):
Darkmoon Card: Hurricane ---- 1774 dps = 321*2.33*1.075 + 970

Calculation format is always value*[uptime]*weight*coeff, so you can decode it quite easily.

• I consider that hit/exp caps can be reached by other gear, so when you equip hit trinket, you reforge 40% of it to mastery, while reforging/restoring rest of 60% hit on other gear to crit/mastery in equal proportions, hence the average weight (0.4*Mastery + 0.3*Mastery + 0.3*Crit). Say, trinket have Crit, then it's 0.4*Mastery + 0.6*Crit and so on. If you can't quite grasp that concept of reforging and feel the urge to use Hit/Exp weights somewhere - don't bother telling me about it, just make your own list.
• DMC:H proc was nerfed in 4.0.6 and now gives 1.5-2% of dps which averages to about 370 dps. Same proc gives ~970 dps on Sinestra.
• After researching logs the proc trinkets were given average 18% uptime (they need some time to proc, perfect case is 20% when they proc instantly all the fight).
• I consider that proc trinkets can be lined up with AW/Zeal/GoAK for 50% of time, which seems about right after scanning logs.
• LtS averaged to 371 Str with 5 min duration and 14 seconds ramp-up (from logs).
• See this post for full explanation of on-use trinket FoA calculations. It accounts for delaying of first round of CDs to line-up them with trinket on-use effect.
• MoK, MoO were penalized because their cooldown is 1.5m.
• REoR proc uptime seems to be lower than other trinkets, at about 14% (from logs).

Conclusion:
H:HoR + LtS is BiS.
H:HoR + DMC:H is probably BiS for heavy AoE fight like Sinestra (more tests needed).

Corrections:
- corrected FoA trinket placement to account for loss of cooldown usage (thanks to Prentice for pointing that out).
- added REoR
- you can mouse over trinket links now
- updated weights
- added DMC:H for Sinestra (thanks to Kaisen for testing)

[Platinumstar]

great info! i am currently running FoA and DMC:H as i dont have access to heroic drops yet. one thing bothers me about FoA is indeed the delay of CDs, takes about 40 sec into the fight after refreshing Inq, so depending on each boss fight, i need to manage how i want to pop my CDs.

I think I will still stick with my current trinket setup and replace DMC:H later with H:HoR when its avaliable.

[Lucetia]

What values are you using for Haste / Crit / Mastery to start with? The haste trinket Heart of Solace I find very hard to believe that it outranks a Strength trinket and Mastery unless you have massive amounts of haste. The hit one I can see being subjective based on what you are at.

[Kisko]

What values are you using for Haste / Crit / Mastery to start with?

Weights are latest for 4.0.6 from Redcape.
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110342-...0/#post1868067

The haste trinket Heart of Solace I find very hard to believe that it outranks a Strength trinket and Mastery unless you have massive amounts of haste.

Haste is weighted at 0.80, not that far behind mastery (1.01).
The advantage of increasing through line-up a much stronger stat (STR on HoS against Mastery on MoK) is giving an edge to HoS.

[Agathon]

the question for me is if h:hor+lts is the somehow superior combo because of the reforge flexibility / the possibility to reach 20+ mastery.
its only 34 dps behind h:hor+foa anyway

[Lucetia]

Weights are latest for 4.0.6 from Redcape.
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110342-...0/#post1868067


Haste is weighted at 0.80, not that far behind mastery (1.01).
The advantage of increasing through line-up a much stronger stat (STR on HoS against Mastery on MoK) is giving an edge to HoS.

Yea, I know the weights themselves. Meant more along the lines of are you saying you have X% haste or something else? While Haste is weighted at 0.80 it's farther behind Mastery as Crit is the one not very far behind it. Lining up I could agree on other than one thing that has never failed me yet. Either the trinket won't pop until I've used wings (due to BL up) or some other unknown thing, probably the reason I stick with /use trinkets as I know I can always align them with whatever is needed.

[Kisko]

the question for me is if h:hor+lts is the somehow superior combo because of the reforge flexibility / the possibility to reach 20+ mastery.
its only 34 dps behind h:hor+foa anyway

You can use Redcape or Exemplar xls, fill in your gear, use some workaround to simulate trinkets (convert procs to static STR, for example) and try to find an answer.
The list I've build can give a general direction where we should be heading, but it's not intended to be a highly precise Rawr replacement for a specific toon/gearset.

There is also fight-specific aspect to consider when choosing trinkets - are LtS stacks going to drop, etc.

Yea, I know the weights themselves. Meant more along the lines of are you saying you have X% haste or something else?

I'm not saying.
As far as I know Redcape always generates weights based on his internal BiS T11 gearset. What exact amount of stats it has is unknown to me.

Lining up I could agree on other than one thing that has never failed me yet. Either the trinket won't pop until I've used wings (due to BL up) or some other unknown thing, probably the reason I stick with /use trinkets as I know I can always align them with whatever is needed.

That's why proc trinkets are penalized with a half coefficient of OnUse trinkets.
Logs indicate that you can usually align half or so procs with your AW/Zeal and occasional GoAK. It may require CDs delay and certain knowledge about length of fight, but it's doable.

[Deleted]

Nice list, although I must question how you evaluated DMC:H. You give the proc a 2% value from anecdotal parses, but even then I have a hard time figuring out how 2% somehow equals 370 dps. Our single target damage is simulated to be roughly around 23-24k in 359 gear, and 26-27k in 372 gear, which would grant the trinket a value somewhere in between 460 and 520 dps. This changes it's position quite significantly, from being being anywhere between 1243 and 1303 dps shooting it up to being near 2nd BiS behind HHoR.

But again this 2% value is also fairly vague and is subject to a lot of variables and RNG, but it's probably the most accurate we have right now.
Redcape himself wrote:

The problem is that the proc rate of DMC:H isn't all you need. Its damage varies based on a number of different factors and it is not at all clear what those are atm. In my personal logs it has consistently done 2% of my overall damage post patch, which is drastically down from the 4.5% it was doing before. In my current model that equates to roughly 420 dps, or 183 Str. You can just add the 183 Str to the base of 321 and look at it as a trinket that has 504 str and model from there. This is *not* perfectly accurate but it should give you data that is plenty good enough to choose trinkets.

http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110342-...1/#post1868531

So the people thinking about ditching their Hurricane card for something else, think twice about it as it may in fact be our best 359 trinket.

[Kisko]

Nice list, although I must question how you evaluated DMC:H. You give the proc a 2% value from anecdotal parses, but even then I have a hard time figuring out how 2% somehow equals 370 dps. Our single target damage is simulated to be roughly around 23-24k in 359 gear, and 26-27k in 372 gear, which would grant the trinket a value somewhere in between 460 and 520 dps. This changes it's position quite significantly, from being being anywhere between 1243 and 1303 dps shooting it up to being near 2nd BiS behind HHoR.

But again this 2% value is also fairly vague and is subject to a lot of variables and RNG, but it's probably the most accurate we have right now.
Redcape himself wrote:

So the people thinking about ditching their Hurricane card for something else, think twice about it as it may in fact be our best 359 trinket.

Anecdotal or not, it's the best parses we have now. You have to remember that 2% value, which Redcape mentioned for his logs, correspond to casual/semi raiders (same for me) and for such raiders 2% is equal to ~370 dps indeed. If you will shoot for the top-end 24k parses ... it will be less than 2%, obviously. I'll show you:

Neldarie <Inner Sanctum> 23637.4 dps Chogall25H ret#1
LStrike damage: 203109/12907606 * 23637.4 = 371.9 dps
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9236&e=9789

Элберес <Экзорсус> 22602.6 dps Chogall25H ret#2
LStrike damage: 120407/13261041 * 22602.6 = 205.2 dps
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...e/?s=140&e=732

Casy <Silent> 23534.0 dps Chimaeron25H ret#1
LStrike damage: 168832/8820446 * 23534.0 = 450.5 dps
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../?s=964&e=1347

Jorj <Invictus> 23550.9 dps Chimaeron25H ret#2
LStrike damage: 117314/9365653 * 23550.9 = 295 dps
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...?s=1944&e=2349

Malba <easYplaY> 26943.2 dps Alakir25N ret#1
LStrike damage: 151445/12113053 * 26943.2 = 336.9 dps
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1055&e=1511

Vetra <For The Hordeh> 24440.5 dps Alakir25N ret#5 (2-4 didnt used DMC)
LStrike damage: 192664/12210854 * 24440.5 = 385.6 dps
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...?s=6585&e=7094

We interested not in the percent however, but in dps value.
Simple average here gives me 341 dps, if anything, I think I overshooted value of DMC:H a bit.
You are welcome to crunch more logs so we can have more precise data

[Prentice]

I'd like to know how heavily the loss of an AW would hurt the value of FoA. The only reason to use that trinket is to line it up with wings. If you lose a single AW because of the build-up on FoA, the value is nearly negative. Just something else to consider.

---------- Post added 2011-02-15 at 03:28 PM ----------

You factored in the stack delay, but not the AW delay/loss possibility. And what about the loss of pre-pot plus AW that is also lost because you had to wait to build your FoA stack? I just don't see how H:HoR proc + H:CW + Golemblood + AW is not worth considerably more than a non-heroic trinket that you can line up but at a significant overall cost.

[Kisko]

To be honest, my FoA estimation is very rough and preliminary. I'm still on the look for some pro ret with it so I can look on parses (have to be recent, 4.0.6).

To adjust it's value accordingly we will need to know initial ramp-up time and how reliably it can keep the stacks.

[Prentice]

The only notes that I have seen about FoA thus far are that the stack procs appear to have a 5 second ICD. I have yet to read about someone having their stacks fall off because of a slow proc rate. Regardless, you are still looking at ~25-30 seconds of delay just to "use" the trinket + AW.

[jontun]

still playing with bader i c : (

[Prentice]

Don't get me wrong here. I am not attacking your data or trying to sound like a total neighsayer. If FoA had a heroic version, it would probably be "the one". The cost to use this trinket properly doesn't seem to be factored correctly when creating trinket rankings. That's all I am really saying here. Anyone can see the overall value of this trinket if the fight duration was infinite, but that's definitely not the case.

[Sepirion]

Good list, looks solid. If I can snag a FoA soon I'll post some tests and results. AFAIK, it's a 30 second ramp up time, which as mentioned really messes with pre-pot > GoAK > CDs opening. I'll personally be sticking with H HoR and LtS until H CW becomes available, but maybe I'll find a cheap FoA to test.

[Matt3s]

I had my fair share of problems with trinkets in the last weeks.

First of all: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...C3%A9/advanced

As you may see, i'm currently wearing LtS and DMC:H.
I also have H:HoR, but came to the conculsion that its not the best trinket for me right now.

You may ask why, and i would be delighted if someone would point out a way to equip H:HoR and still get the maximum benefit out of it.

You see, i have H-Akirus, so i got a shitload of Expertise on my weapon and H-Ashkandi is far away, so there is no way in hell i take another weapon.
The shoes are best in slot and through STR and Mastery alone even without Expertise better than 359-ones.
Relic i dont have to explain.
Which leaves the head.

Yes i am engineer, and i could take the googles, but thats a 30str loss, and i would have to equip my 359 shoulders which are awful in comparison to my 372 HalfusHC shoulders.

That leaves me with:

168 Expt head
259 Expt weapon
171 Expt shoes
72 Expt relic

overall: 680 Expertise, i can reforge 40% of that, which leaves me with 408, so yeah, with reforging i can (as you see) easily get my expt. cap


Now, H-HoR has a shitload of expertise, namely 363, after reforging its still 218 expertise.

Even if i reforge everything off of my gear i'm left with 145 Expertise Rating to much.


Thats 145 wasted points of item value.



--- anyone a clue how i could make it work?


---

another thing i got a problem with is your:

I consider that hit/exp caps can be reached by other gear

I dont know how you feel, but as a retribution paladin in a semi-hardcore-progress guild with a 365~itemlvl, im STARVED for Hit-Rating.

I have to enchant AND reforge Hit-Rating in order to be capped.
Without a weapon with Hit, namely Ashkandi HC, every single Ret-Paladin in the world who has a 372 Weapon is unable to reach Hitcap solely through gear without wearing LtS.

[Rlyskilled]

Without a weapon with Hit, namely Ashkandi HC, every single Ret-Paladin in the world who has a 372 Weapon is unable to reach Hitcap solely through gear without wearing LtS.

841 hitcap ftw!

But, I feel your expertise pain.

[Matt3s]

841 hitcap ftw!

But, I feel your expertise pain.

Racial + T11 Shoulders + PvP Gloves...ye, you got your cap, but the stat loss in comparison to Halfus-HC Shoulders and H-T11 Gloves sadly is quite large.

[Rlyskilled]

I'm aware, but I don't have heroic Halfus shoulders to wear.

[Prentice]

I'm aware, but I don't have heroic Halfus shoulders to wear.

Why on earth are you showing that hideous helm?