PTR: New tooltip for Insect Swarm

[Nijada]

I logged on the PTR earlier and noticed the tooltip for insect swarm has changed.

http://img51.imageshack.us/i/insectswarm.jpg/

It does'nt work as described on the PTR, perhaps to be added, perhaps just a mistake!

[Deleted]

Lee?

Anyways, I think this is great. I asked for something like this in a recent blog post, but I would obviously expect the same to happen to Moonfire and Sunfire (respectively giving the correct eclipse power). With this setup, IS and Sunfire would push us towards lunar, and MF would push us towards solar. IS would do nothing during lunar eclipse, because it cant move backwards, but at the same time, its not buffed during lunar, so thats fine.

The main reason for why this is a great idea, is because it kills multidotting. We are not "supposed" to use DOTs to damage a large number of enemies. We are "supposed" to use shrooms, hurricane and typhoon to do that. I hate the thought of being pushed out of our class design just because staying in solar eclipse and dotting up 5 mobs does more damage than what we can do with three other spells.

This is a good change. I would very much like a tiny damage buff to compensate for getting out of eclipse faster, but we will see if this actually makes it live, and how much eclipse power we gain from it.

Pro's:

- We can get eclipse faster when we refresh dots outside of eclipse (i guess that nullifies my wish for a damage increase to compensate).
- We use the abilities for AOE that we are supposed to.
- PvP'ers can run around spamming DOTs to get into that initial eclipse state, and doesn't have to stand still for a number of starfire/wrath casts.

Cons:

- You can't stay in solar eclipse forever on AOE packs. Deal with it :P

[Calculated]

A) this tooltip has been broken like this forever. says the same thing in live.

B) While I'm sure PvPkins would love this, dots moving Eclipse energy would be a HORRIBLE change for PvE.

I do mean all caps HORRIBLE. It's bad enough our single target is getting hit due to PvP changes. Let's not neuter our multi-target due to PvP as well. Also, being able to extend and control Eclipse is part of our class design as well. Making it so dots move energy takes that control away and makes the spec far less interesting to play as far as I'm concerned. Eclipse dancing is a huge part about why I love Moonkin in Cata.

[Zene]

Yeah, it sucks for aoe fights like h maloriak where we can really shine. Which in reality is a small number compared to the single target case which the majority of fights consists of. I would think that for 2 target bosses you would still multi dot.

[Deleted]

I do mean all caps HORRIBLE. It's bad enough our single target is getting hit due to PvP changes. Let's not neuter our multi-target due to PvP as well. Also, being able to extend and control Eclipse is part of our class design as well. Making it so dots move energy takes that control away and makes the spec far less interesting to play as far as I'm concerned.

I'm pretty sure this is largely affected by pve as well. It is a little broken when multidotting adds deal a lot more damage in the short term than the AoE abilities - why do you think they just doubled mind sear?
Its also wrong when this drastically increase single target dps too by having insane amounts of starsurge procs. AoE should be your AoE, you shouldn't have to cleave for extra single target dps.

[Calculated]

We are more and more a dot class and have been since Cata. Have you seen how hard our "nukes" hit? Dots are our primary damage source. We are nowhere near the only class that multi-dots in AoE situations. Mushroom is on a 10 sec Detonate cooldown. Typhoon is on a 20 second cooldown. Hurricane will oom you if you spam it. Tell me exactly how you expect a Boom to sustain AoE without multi-dotting?

EDIT: As to cleaving/using multi-target abilities to increase single-target output, we are far from the worst offender here as well. In fact, I'm not going to multi-dot just for the sake of Starsurge procs if the extra targets I'm dotting are not targets of importance. This would lower my dps on the target(s) that are important. There are classes where "cleaving/mutli-target" abilities truly do increase their dps on the primary target as well. We are not one of those classes.

It's a moot point, tooltip is broken and has been a long time . . . but don't go wishing for our dots to cause energy gain.

[Neothin]

Have to agree with calculated here... our sustainable aoe dps would go to Crap if dots gave energy. Only way I would want to see this go through is if they negated the shrooms and typhoon cd, but they won't do that for pvp reasons

[Xanda]

Esc ---> Interface ---> Help ---> Beginner Tooltip.

[Rogge]

I'm pretty sure this is largely affected by pve as well. It is a little broken when multidotting adds deal a lot more damage in the short term than the AoE abilities - why do you think they just doubled mind sear?

Yet they have done nothing to hurricane (yet). Without powerful multidotting, a 4-setbonus that is considerably better than most classes, and with a 20% nerf to starsurge, balance druids would be hard pressed perform in pve in 4.2.

Add to this that many other classes seem to get major aoe buffs (and combat resses for dks!), there won't really be any niche for moonkins to fill.

[Nijada]

Esc ---> Interface ---> Help ---> Beginner Tooltip.

I can cofirm this is correct, i've just tried it on live and the tooltip in the 1st post appears here too. Thanks for the clarity Xanda.

[Deleted]

A) this tooltip has been broken like this forever. says the same thing in live.

B) While I'm sure PvPkins would love this, dots moving Eclipse energy would be a HORRIBLE change for PvE.

I do mean all caps HORRIBLE. It's bad enough our single target is getting hit due to PvP changes. Let's not neuter our multi-target due to PvP as well. Also, being able to extend and control Eclipse is part of our class design as well. Making it so dots move energy takes that control away and makes the spec far less interesting to play as far as I'm concerned. Eclipse dancing is a huge part about why I love Moonkin in Cata.

I think its a WONDERFUL change for PvE. I'm pretty sure Blizzard didn't sit around for a cheese saying "Vous savez ce que, lets give moonkins Hurricane, Mushrooms and Typhoon, but design AOE damage around staying in the same eclipse system for several minutes". I don't want to go do something that is outside the class design, just because its more damage. I want it fixed so that we have spells for AOE and spells for direct damage. Anything else is retarded.

It has very little impact on PvE actually. You will have one time during eclipse where you refresh DOTs where you will lose a bit of eclipse time. But on the other hand, when you refresh DOTs outside, you'll get to your next eclipse faster. Even trade.

Yet they have done nothing to hurricane (yet). Without powerful multidotting, a 4-setbonus that is considerably better than most classes, and with a 20% nerf to starsurge, balance druids would be hard pressed perform in pve in 4.2.

Add to this that many other classes seem to get major aoe buffs (and combat resses for dks!), there won't really be any niche for moonkins to fill.

Thats hardly true. We would lose the multiDOTting, but could fill in a typhoon or a hurricane for AOE instead. Our single target stays the same, the 20% starsurge nerf is just to its base damage. We are in a good position now, and this only - ONLY affects the few cases where we do a lot of AOE, which is mainly Maloriak heroic and trash.

[Rogge]

Thats hardly true. We would lose the multiDOTting, but could fill in a typhoon or a hurricane for AOE instead. Our single target stays the same, the 20% starsurge nerf is just to its base damage. We are in a good position now, and this only - ONLY affects the few cases where we do a lot of AOE, which is mainly Maloriak heroic and trash.

Hmm, according to this it's both base damage and coefficient.

Several fights are multidotfights but not suitable for mushrooms/hurricane/typhoon. Omnotron, V&T, ascendant council comes to mind.

[Calculated]

all caps HORRIBLE

WONDERFUL

Heh, my all caps HORRIBLE has been countered with an all caps WONDERFUL. I like it. I shall now raise you again with an all caps, underlined, italicized, and bolded HORRIBLE In other words, I'm all-in on this one.

On a more serious note, if Blizz wants us to use AoE tools, make them better. Don't make our dots and overall Eclipse system worse. This is not a good plan. If Hurricane hit harder than multi-dotting and/or didn't oom me, I'd be happy to use it instead. Again, call it against class design but, as mentioned before we aren't the only ones multi-dotting for aoe situations.

Also, as mentioned before, this would make controlling Eclipse state a far more difficult task (without stopping dots altogether). What? You want to plan for an Eclipse so you can Eclipsed Lunar Shower spam throughout Atramedes air phase? Yes, we put those Lunar Shower and Blessing of the Grove talents in place to make your on the move damage better but sorry, dot energy gain is now going to take you out of that Eclipse so get farked. You were trying to stay in Solar so you could buff Hurricane/Typhoon/WM for an add phase? Ooops, I hope you stopped all of your dots first.

Oh, and those are just for instances on how it breaks/hampers Eclipse control. Let's also ponder on how we would soon start multi-dotting many targets (even non-important targets) for faster energy gain for perma-up 15% NG haste -- mmmmm. That sounds functional and intended . . . pretty much making dots add energy would do many things to break how we currently operate and send Blizz back to the drawing board on spec design.

If your goal is to draw us toward using AoE spells for AoE, prod Blizz to up the coefficient on Hurricane and lower the mana cost. If they did this, I would be perfectly happy to manage my Eclipse to Solar and then WM, WM, WM, Detonate, Hurricane, WM, WM, WM, Detonate, Hurricane ad infinitum until adds are dead. Problem solved and no other impact to overall class design which is working great as is. Adding energy to dots on the other hand just causes a host of unintended and undesirable consequences.

Hmm, according to this it's both base damage and coefficient.

Regarding Starsurge, the 20% hit is indeed to both base and coefficient -- on a single target fight, it is a good 3 to 3.5% nerf (assuming proper use of 4 pc and starsurge delay). On a multi-target fight, it is a smaller hit to overall damage but still in the 1-2% range.

[Supernex]

Lee?

Yes? What can I do for you? =P

[shags the penguin]

I couldn't think of anything worse. I even wrote a long post which I then lost before I could post it. Will be back !

[Madus]

Probably would fuckout pvp too. Multidoting with active solar eclipse is only thing what is holding us there...but imnot sure.
Btw when they give us "polarity shift" kind of spell u know from solar->lunar (lunar->solar) instantly on cd.

[Palegod]

Heh, my all caps HORRIBLE has been countered with an all caps WONDERFUL. I like it. I shall now raise you again with an all caps, underlined, italicized, and bolded HORRIBLE In other words, I'm all-in on this one.

Needs BLINK and MARQUEE tags to fully capture the horrible of this.

[shags the penguin]

Probably would fuckout pvp too. Multidoting with active solar eclipse is only thing what is holding us there...but imnot sure.
Btw when they give us "polarity shift" kind of spell u know from solar->lunar (lunar->solar) instantly on cd.

Nice Idea it would allow us to start in a eclipse like we should be able to. just needs a short CD like 2 mins.

Polarity shift: Gives the moonkin 50 energy in the direction they want. as a side effect standing near another moonkin with the other side will cause death.

[Deleted]

Heh, my all caps HORRIBLE has been countered with an all caps WONDERFUL. I like it. I shall now raise you again with an all caps, underlined, italicized, and bolded HORRIBLE In other words, I'm all-in on this one.

On a more serious note, if Blizz wants us to use AoE tools, make them better. Don't make our dots and overall Eclipse system worse. This is not a good plan. If Hurricane hit harder than multi-dotting and/or didn't oom me, I'd be happy to use it instead. Again, call it against class design but, as mentioned before we aren't the only ones multi-dotting for aoe situations.

Also, as mentioned before, this would make controlling Eclipse state a far more difficult task (without stopping dots altogether). What? You want to plan for an Eclipse so you can Eclipsed Lunar Shower spam throughout Atramedes air phase? Yes, we put those Lunar Shower and Blessing of the Grove talents in place to make your on the move damage better but sorry, dot energy gain is now going to take you out of that Eclipse so get farked. You were trying to stay in Solar so you could buff Hurricane/Typhoon/WM for an add phase? Ooops, I hope you stopped all of your dots first.

Oh, and those are just for instances on how it breaks/hampers Eclipse control. Let's also ponder on how we would soon start multi-dotting many targets (even non-important targets) for faster energy gain for perma-up 15% NG haste -- mmmmm. That sounds functional and intended . . . pretty much making dots add energy would do many things to break how we currently operate and send Blizz back to the drawing board on spec design.

If your goal is to draw us toward using AoE spells for AoE, prod Blizz to up the coefficient on Hurricane and lower the mana cost. If they did this, I would be perfectly happy to manage my Eclipse to Solar and then WM, WM, WM, Detonate, Hurricane, WM, WM, WM, Detonate, Hurricane ad infinitum until adds are dead. Problem solved and no other impact to overall class design which is working great as is. Adding energy to dots on the other hand just causes a host of unintended and undesirable consequences.



Regarding Starsurge, the 20% hit is indeed to both base and coefficient -- on a single target fight, it is a good 3 to 3.5% nerf (assuming proper use of 4 pc and starsurge delay). On a multi-target fight, it is a smaller hit to overall damage but still in the 1-2% range.

I see your HORRIBLE and raise you a "".

Yes, agreed, AOE tools should be better. And our direct nukes should be a slightly higher part of our damage. On this, we don't disagree. But that is something we can discuss after merely talking about if we "should" be using multidotting as AOE. In my world, we shouldn't, but we are, because that is the better DPS at the moment.

But multidotting for AOE is terrible design, and obviously not what we were meant to be doing. I also find it extremely cumbersome, and I'd rather not have to do it just to squeeze out some more damage.

On a general nuke fight, I don't see how eclipse power from DOTs make a whole lot of difference. We get out of eclipse faster, but we also get into eclipse faster, and I doub you'll be putting up dots more often than once inside and eclipse and outside an eclipse. There might be the case of moonfire being extended so far that you only cast it once between each cycle, but this is the only valid argument against this system in my book.

I do agree, there are problems with heavy movement fights such as Atramedes, where a quick moonfire is better than nothing (and much better than trying to cast a starfire in phase 2 of Atramede HC). But on the other hand, if you were ever caught outside and eclipse when phase 2 starts, then this system might actually help you.

I wouldn't imagine DOTs giving more eclipse power than, say, a wrath. It would probably come out to being a little bit less eclipse power per second.

[Palegod]

and obviously not what we were meant to be doing.

Obvious to whom? Every DoT-capable class has been multi-DoTing since vanilla. It was only in Wrath where channeled AEs and things like Seed of Corruption were buffed to such godly levels that there was no point in casting *anything* else if there were multiple targets to hit. Clearly they meant for this to stop when they nerfed every one of those AEs into the ground to the point where hunters lost theirs entirely and shadow priests actually had to consider if it was better to use Holy Nova instead of Mind Sear. Sure, they're finally buffing the channeled AEs back up a bit but we'll never see anything like it was in Wrath again.

I can understand not liking multi-DoTs, especially with how terrible WoW's /targetnextenemy function is; my warlock has never been affliction because I think the spec is incredibly annoying to play. But to say that it's not their intent for things to work the way they do is rather misguided.