[Shadow] Best Raid Gear Available - 4.2.0

[Veiled]

Jesus, right in the middle of a massive sim day. GG

Yeah I'd just call it a day.. Sigh :|

[Deleted]

It makes no sense that Flickering Cowl of the Undertow (Heroic) {Haste/Spirit} has a higher pp Value then Flickering Cowl of the Undertow (Heroic) {Haste/Mastery}

[Brusalk]

Why exactly does that make no sense? Spirit has a higher value than mastery before cap, which the guide assumes.

[Twintop]

It makes no sense that Flickering Cowl of the Undertow (Heroic) {Haste/Spirit} has a higher pp Value then Flickering Cowl of the Undertow (Heroic) {Haste/Mastery}

Not sure if serious (thanks to your avatar).

The results are correct (well, they *were* correct, I.E. from the numbers generated from the bugged SimulationCraft used); redo the maths if you don't believe them.

[Deleted]

The list is sorted by the value of the item (head, shoulder, etc). The number 1 items in this list are often not the Items you wear the real best in slot, because hitcap is not included in this list...

Spirit is never better then haste /crit / mastery in this case of listing...

You arent hitcapped when you take every #1 Item in this list so it makes no sense to say this helmet is the best item in the game (it has hit on it) but dont do it for the other items.

If you take every #1 item in this list, then 1121 Hit" and that isnt even near to hitcap. So why do you list the helmet with hit on #1?

so it has to be a mistake when op says the head with spirit is the best head ingame. because it is not. Maybe you wear this spirit head in the real bestin slot, but you dont wear all the other #1 items in this list because you wont be near to hitcap, not even 15,5% hit (that would be enough for sp imo).

The helmet with haste+mastery should be #1, same for shoulders..

[Arlee]

The list is sorted by the value of the item (head, shoulder, etc). The number 1 items in this list are often not the Items you wear the real best in slot...

Hitcap is not included in this list...

And Spirit is never better then haste /crit / mastery in this case of listing...

You arent hitcapped when you take every #1 Item in this list...

If you take every #1 item in this list, then you are at "227 + 254 + 185 + 366 + 89 = 1121 Hit" and that isnt even near to hitcap..

so it has to be a mistake when op says the head with spirit is the best head ingame. because it is not. Maybe you wear this spirit head in the real bestin slot, but you dont wear all the other #1 items in this list because you wont be near to hitcap, not even 15,5% hit (that would be enough for sp imo).

It's not a mistake and you have just identified why no BiS list should not be followed 100%. It's a "Best in Slot" list... a ranking of items that will give you the most value for each slot, which is why Twin (and many others) have stated repeatedly that this is only a tool. If you blindly follow each #1 then that would be idiotic, this is true for any BiS list out there. You have use the tool and figure out what the best usable set for you would be.

[Deleted]

Thanks, sir. But you dont have to explain it to me.

What you have written was exactly the same what i meaned.

Back in icc there excisted 2 bis lists. One with hitcap and the one without hitcap. I remember that the #1 Legs from the hitcapped bis list was the H Festergut Legs and the BiS without hitcap were the craftinglegs (im not 100% sure).

Hope you now know what i mean.

[Twintop]

This is a troll. I refuse to give trolls public satisfaction, therefore I refuse to feed this one any more. koksii, if you aren't a troll, PM me and I'll explain in private.

[Deleted]

You just dont get what i mean...generelly there exists 2 BiS lists the one with hitcap and the one without hitcap...this list here is a mix of both...
im out now, sorry for this spam.

but anyway...ty and keep up your work

[Zuziza]

You just dont get what i mean...generelly there exists 2 BiS lists the one with hitcap and the one without hitcap...this list here is a mix of both...

I'll bite, at least to clarify the confusion for any readers who weren't around back then.

In Wrath (ICC days specifically), the shadow guide had 2 BiS lists. Each list was not a list of 1-20ish like this list, it was literally a set shopping list for what drops you'd want as a set. It was not a bunch of rankings, it was an outfit. One was hit capped and one was not, since hit cap was much more desireable in Wrath than it is now.

The current list is not a shopping list. It's not like all the #1's are the best set and the #2's are second best. Each slot is calulated separately. The #1 helm has nothing to do with anything else except how it compares to other helms. The list assumes nothing about hit cap, haste levels, or anything like that. It's calculated by using the sim values (at the top of the OP) to determine how much every single piece is worth by itself. Each point of mastery is worth X PP, each point of haste is worth Y PP, and so on. Every item for each slot is compared to how much PP you can get out of it, totally absent of what other gear you may have.

The reason this works better in Cata is because stats like Spirit have variable worth to each player. Some players have computer/internet set ups where they cannot react quickly enough to a miss to minimize DPS loss, so they need hit cap, whereas others have no issue with it and dip 12% and lower. Even if spirit sims at a certain value, they may have a comfortable level of spirit anyway, so they'd take a haste/mastery piece rather than a haste/spirit piece that's ranked higher on this list and it gets them a bigger DPS boost than the alternative.

This sort of situation means that strictly saying "have this set to be the best geared spriest" is no longer good advice. Sets are often only included in guides to explain where the sim values came from and to show that such values are real, not made up for simple explanations. So far in Cata, there is no real BiS set; it's entirely variable on the player's resources for reaction time, lag, and attention to procs. You could make a set up that's hit capped with max haste/mastery or one that's at a set point below with max haste/mastery, but it means practically nothing unless those people with it can match simulators on uptime for debuffs and procs. I don't mean come close to it, I mean match. In Cata fights, that's just not realistic.

In short, you must sim your own gear and figure out your needs concerning hit before you can look at this list to see what you really need. If you're close to 30% haste, never get DI, and don't care about hit cap, you might drop a haste/spirit item for haste/mastery or you might reforge out of spirit on a non-haste item just to hit the 30%. That situation is highly variable on what gear you already have, your set up, and your ability to catch a miss.

TL;DR: BiS sets don't work anymore. BiS PP rankings (like this list) are much more useful.

[Veiled]

You say "generally there are two lists"... Shadowpriest.com has a "best hit gear available" which is something that Twintop doesn't have the time to do. TBH I always thought the idea of that list was a bit ridiculous because anyone can use a BiS list like this one and clearly find the best hit/spirit piece in the list.

My suggestion is that if you're looking for a "best hit gear available" list, visit ShadowPriest.com... Of course, this is assuming that it's actually up (which it isn't atm).

[Twintop]

List updated with sims from SimulationCraft that include the ES bugfix.

Stat values changed as such:

Int		+0.0000
Spirit		+0.0115
Spell Power	+0.0059
Hit		+0.0082
Crit		+0.0059
Haste		-0.0017
Mastery		-0.0077
DPS		+0.0034

This is mostly in line with what I predicted here -- the only missed mark was Haste (and it's change has the smallest delta of all, 3x smaller than the next nearest change).

This doesn't change our overall gearing setup much if at all, except for 2 notes:
1) Get hitcapped. Seriously.
2) Crit and Mastery are basically even for right now. I would reforge between the two to fit personal taste and playstyle.



EDIT: Since the main focus behind this bug was assuming 100% ES uptimes, here's the values (pulled from the results linked in the OP) for the 4 sim types:

SIM			UPTIME	BENEFIT
Patchwerk		94%	93%
Patchwerk 2dot		95%	95%
Helterskelter		83%	84%
Helterskelter 2dot	87%	88%

These results make sense to me. The primary way we get shadow orbs to spawn is through Mind Flay, with the secondary method being SWP ticks. For a Patchwerk fight, we are able to get many MFs off without interruption (thus the high uptime%), and it increases slightly when we start multi-dotting (again, since SWP doesn't proc an orb as often as MF does).

For a Helterskelter style of fight, we're moving around much more which leads to fewer MF casts, thus lowering our shadow orb procs. When you move to a double dot setup, the uptime again increases because of the extra SWP ticks spawning orbs. The jump is higher between single and double Helterskelter fights than Patchwerk fights because, in most cases, when the second target's SWP procs an orb on a Patchwerk fight, you already have one from the primary target; On the other side, in Helterskelter you have a higher likelyhood of having 0 orbs (due to fewer MF casts) so the extra orb helps you maintain ES.

[Deleted]

Does anyone know where I can find a good trinket list ?
I know this topic has an included list but I'm looking for a justification or verification of that list. Trinkets are always special and hard to judge as to what is best...

[Veiled]

Does anyone know where I can find a good trinket list ?
I know this topic has an included list but I'm looking for a justification or verification of that list. Trinkets are always special and hard to judge as to what is best...

This list is correct as far as trinket values are concerned.

[Zuziza]

Does anyone know where I can find a good trinket list ?
I know this topic has an included list but I'm looking for a justification or verification of that list. Trinkets are always special and hard to judge as to what is best...

To expand on what Veiled said, this list takes the stat weights and ICDs into account when comparing the trinkets. However, all the rankings assume that an upgrade (at least as in comparing #2 to maybe #4, for any slot), it will not put you over hit cap or mess with your ability to make a haste plateau. Hit, DI, and haste levels (esp. goblin) are factors you have to take into account personally because it varies by your play ability/comp set up, raid comp, and race. Because of those factors, you should never take a list at face value; what seems to be an upgrade can vary by player if they have very different circumstances, and the only guaranteed upgrades are moving from a reg. version of a trinket to the heroic version.

So no, there isn't really a perfect trinket list. You're welcome to ask "what about X vs. Y" and give your info if you need help deciding on a trinket, and there's plenty of posters who are willing to discuss it with you.

[Veiled]

To expand on what Veiled said, this list takes the stat weights and ICDs into account when comparing the trinkets. However, all the rankings assume ththat an upgrade (at least as in comparing #2 to maybe #4, for any slot), it will not put you over hit cap or mess with your ability to make a haste plateau. Hit, DI, and haste levels (esp. goblin) are factors you have to take into account personally because it varies by your play ability/comp set up, raid comp, and race. Because of those factors, you should never take a list at face value; what seems to be an upgrade can vary by player if they have very different circumstances, and the only guaranteed upgrades are moving from a reg. version of a trinket to the heroic version.

So no, there isn't really a perfect trinket list. You're welcome to ask "what about X vs. Y" and give your info if you need help deciding on a trinket, and there's plenty of posters who are willing to discuss it with you.

<3 thanks bb

[Arlee]

<3 thanks bb

What's bb mean?? Should I be jealous? ahmg!

Srsly though, that was a really good explanation Zuziza.

[Veiled]

What's bb mean?? Should I be jealous? ahmg!

Srsly though, that was a really good explanation Zuziza.

I really wanted to type something like that out.. but I was posting from iPad and </3@that.

[Twintop]

I really wanted to type something like that out.. but I was posting from iPad and </3@that.

You should really get a G-Slate like I have. <3 it so much thus far.

To expand on what Veiled said, this list takes the stat weights and ICDs into account when comparing the trinkets. However, all the rankings assume that an upgrade (at least as in comparing #2 to maybe #4, for any slot), it will not put you over hit cap or mess with your ability to make a haste plateau. Hit, DI, and haste levels (esp. goblin) are factors you have to take into account personally because it varies by your play ability/comp set up, raid comp, and race. Because of those factors, you should never take a list at face value; what seems to be an upgrade can vary by player if they have very different circumstances, and the only guaranteed upgrades are moving from a reg. version of a trinket to the heroic version.

So no, there isn't really a perfect trinket list. You're welcome to ask "what about X vs. Y" and give your info if you need help deciding on a trinket, and there's plenty of posters who are willing to discuss it with you.

I don't think I could have explained it any better. Kudos, Zuziza, you've hit the nail on the head.

On a related topic, there's some weird stuff happening with SimulationCraft right now in regards to the ordering of actions having a drastic effect on PP weights (moreso than ever expected). We're talking about it over on H2P right now if anyone wants more details.

'tis a very interesting time to be theorycrafting. I guess this is another occasion to chalk one up for the non-SimulationCraft theorycrafters in the community (I.E. not me)?

[Deleted]

So no, there isn't really a perfect trinket list. You're welcome to ask "what about X vs. Y" and give your info if you need help deciding on a trinket, and there's plenty of posters who are willing to discuss it with you.

Well what trinkets are you aiming for ?
I'm going with Baleroc hc and DMC:Volcano. Theralion's Mirror hc is rated higher, but I've seen a few procs go to waste entirely due to no orb proccing. Well, in previous tier at least. It's pretty hard to not get advantage from the Int proc from the Darkmoon Card... What's your opinion on this?

Also: I've just picked up a helmet from Rhyolith hc, haste/crit. I know that isn't ideal (prefer haste/mastery or haste/spirit) but I think I'm going for this random 391 helm and the upgraded t12 gloves when I get a token. I'm going for this setup because it's very unlikely for us to kill Ragnaros heroic in this tier and because both items to change the setup are dropping from that same boss anyways. Any comments?